The AC 1.1 cheat detection policy and the AC 1.0 cases

[Brahma]

Well.... I never said the anticheats work perfectly too. In the opposite, I always said it would never be perfect.

But it will become better and better each new release, because we will get more and more feedbacks and reports about its failures.

To this end we need the community helping, and not ignorant trolls crying and blaming the devs in the forum.

Take the example of Apollo... he does not agree with many aspects of the dev's choices, rules, demands and work, but he respect our work, recognize the good things and propose options and solutions.

Regarding the trolls, well... we are doing this for free... so, do not expect full time, full attention, full work... We simply cannot do it.

[pakit]

i'm not apolo's best friend but he is right:"The problem is more that pepole believe that they have a say in the development of the game. That never has been and never will be. You can do discussions all the day long - at the end it's the developer's game and they decide and make what they want."

we can say what we think but that's all,we have NO right on where go this game.devs do it for their pleasure,on their free time.they're not here to work for US.

and i'm sure they do what they think good for this game and are abble to listen what players have to say if needed.so blame them for hours won't change anything and probably just bored them because they give more to AC than us.

for forum moderation: like the first day i've entered AC clan's life i'm convicted that NO clanplayers can moderate this forum without falling in some abusing attitude.

[tipper|DES|]

Well, I don’t completely agree with others view of how this game has developed with regard to player input.
Certainly, it is the developer’s game; more particularly makke and drians game I suggest.
Certainly the players have never had any rights with regard to the direction the game takes.
But, in the past at least both makke and drian sought the opinions and suggestions of the core players and encouraged their participation in the development process.

There has always been the issue of whether the game is better off primarily catering to the casual player or the core players; quantity or quality if you like.
In the past, from what I remember from my talks with those involved, makke and drian certainly tended to take the view that those who had been playing and supporting the game (not developing) and community from the earliest days would have their views taken into consideration. Like it or not, this tended to mean the established clans had more influence than the casual player.
The reason for this is quite simple, it was the established clans that had the supportive players who made the majority of the games custom content, provided the servers and policed the game. This is the way of the world and all the wishful egalitarian thinking isn’t going to change this.

At that time it was felt that the quality of the game was of primary importance.
At the moment, on the public servers in the latest issue the quality of the game is pretty low imo.
The reason for this is partly because a number of the more experienced players won’t make the transition from 1.04 to 1.1.

I have heard and read the complaints from those who say they prefer 1.04 to 1.1 and having played every issue since the games release, imo the change from 1.04 to 1.1 for example are a lot less radical than those from 0.93 to 1.04. I believe these players reluctance to transfer to the new issue has more to do with politics than gameplay, or at best a combination of both.

Now whether I agree with the following or not, doesn’t make it any less of an issue. It seems to me that a great number of established players do not like the approach Brahma in particular has to certain clans and players, nor do they like Brahma’s populist vision of the game.

The thing is, nobody seems prepared to state this in blunt terms; the addition of Brahma to the dev team and subsequent events concerning cheat detection are and have been an issue for a number of the veteran players.
Yes, there have always been divisions within the community.
Yes, there have always been divisions about the direction the game should take.
Yes, there have always been clashes of personality.

It would be great if everyone was reasonable and all worked towards some compromise but it just isn’t happening is it?
What we have is two issues running side by side and a real risk that the game will lose a large chunk of its veteran players when the inevitable closure of the 1.04 servers happens.
The most likely scenario is that someone will start a pirate 1.04 master server and a large proportion of the experienced players will go there.

I personally don’t have any major problems with 1.1 although I accept many of the comments about map and armor suitability made by stef and others.

I don’t have any major problems with Brahma either believe it or not.

However, I would really like to see the 1.04 players playing 1.1 and at the moment there seems to be no constructive dialogue between the two camps.
So, I ask the 1.04 supporters, what changes to 1.1 would get you playing on the public servers again?
If it’s not about changes to the game then what is it about

[P@ndel]

the change from 1.04 to 1.1 for example are a lot less radical than those from 0.93 to 1.04

True, but those changes that included altering a few numbers changed its original game play, making it something completely different from 1.0.4, hence the reason why many
*experienced players won’t make the transition from 1.04 to 1.1*

I don’t have any major problems with Brahma either believe it or not.

Believe me or not, neither do i, i was never targeted by any of his attacks or anything. But the fact remains that his presence (considering his past, unfounded cheat allegations, collaboration with people who have a fame of being a well-known cheater and cheat coder)
and active involvement in the game makes a lot of people uncomfortable, these people first of all being those who have contributed into this game since its first release, and who still keep contributing and those who still try to make some contributions despite all of this that has happened in the past few months.

So, I ask the 1.04 supporters, what changes to 1.1 would get you playing on the public servers again?

If you asking for real this time, then please go over these threads:
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-571.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-975.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-859.html

And many more you can find in some random posts.


//Mod edit: User is banned for multiple accounts.

[ElCrema]

I remember that in the past, lots of what was considered an authoritarian attitude by the devs (the crappy maps cleanse, the blacklist of the whole BS clan and the infamous dust2 map), had huge support from the so called "elite" of the game. That was so, for the sole fact that they did agree with the devs on those matters, even more than that, I remember fierce lobbies made be "elite" players at the time, even being these decisions viewed as extremely authoritarian by many other members of the community. So, apparently the " elite" does not have problems with authoritarian and centralized decision, when suits them well ;)

Anyways, history has proven that when it comes to the direction that the game will take, the dev team will hear the players out (1.1 was largely based on the "Ideas" thread), but ultimately, will decide what they consider better for AC. Seems like for 1.1 they are more concern in generating better gameplay for pub and new player (hence the new score system, new gun and the anti nade spam approach) than that of a more match oriented one, as the "elite" requests .

Also, imo, the animosity between the "elite" and the dev team has to do more with the removal of stef from the team and this new "pub gameplay" approach that the devs decided to take for AC than with the presence or attitudes of Brahma itself. Blame the new guy alone for all the problems in the community nowadays seems way to easy in my book, let alone a bit unfair. All the devs have admin here in the forum and all of them actively participate in the development and direction of the new version. I find it very hard to believe that flowtron, makke and drian would give that much power to Brahma, to let him decide all the changes in 1.1. Seems to me tipper, that you (and the ppl you talk on behalf, the "elite" players) are going only after the smaller fish of the group here. If there is such a big problem as of AC it is today, the whole dev team and not only one of them (the newer one) is to blame.

As for players leaving, well, Apollo and tipper already left once, we all got very sad about it for a while, but life went on, some new players came, new clans were born and people were still playing AC like nothing ever happened. That's the way it is, players will come and go, 1.1 is already full of new players.

To me, it doesn't sound like a smart move to think the future of this game only from the perspective of some 20 and change seasoned players. Especially when the whole issue seems to be a political dispute over power and not necessarily about ways to better the game itself.

[tipper|DES|]

While one may get a different impression from reading what I’ve written about this I am in fact not blaming Brahma for this situation.
We all have a lot to thank Brahma for. He pretty much single handedly “revitalized” the dev team and without him I doubt the game would have had a new issue.
That doesn’t however mean he isn’t part of the problem; a fine but definite distinction.

Nor am I representative of this so called “elite” group or ever have been.
What I had hoped is that somehow the political division and the game play concerns could be separated.
My reasoning is this: the players that support 1.04 would have us believe that it is changes to the game play that means they are reluctant to make the transition to the new issue.
Actual changes to the game were not in fact that many and it would not be difficult or lengthy to address each one.
It should then be possible to separate the “political” objections from the game play objections and that would enable the community to see exactly where the faction leaders and supporters arguments lie.
This would clarify to all who are interested whether it is really the game or the politics that are the real issue here.
In the past, the dev team has always been responsive to suggestions concerning game play.
This I think would leave a small core of those whose objection is obviously political and the community could then make their own judgments concerning these people.

[Brahma]

What I had hoped is that somehow the political division and the game play concerns could be separated.

You can be sure we separate it... The source of trouble regarding the game play is not related to politics, but to the tastes and plans of each dev, and their choice to listen or not listen to the community requests.

Let me give you one single example to illustrate what I am trying to say:
1) The community requested to end the nade spamming/ratio whore
2) After long discussions in the forum, we identified the grenade to be the main source of this issue (everybody contributed to the discussion, and obviously we gave higher attention to the veterans, because they know the game better than the others). The only dev in the discussion was me.
3) I proposed 1 change to the dev's team: reduce the grenade gib to 1 frag (imo, this was sufficient to fix the issue considering the long discussion we previously had in the community). Makke accepted the change, we tested it, and it was ok.
4) Then RK proposed to reduce the pick up to 1 nade. I got scared with this idea, but he is a dev, he works for free for this game and we should test.
5) So I proposed to carry 3 nades to balance this last change. We tested and it was ok.
6) Me, RK and Makke got a long and stressful discussion (in IRC and in game) about put or not the nade gib back to 2 frags. The nade is still 1 frag because 2 frags was the main source of ratio whore and nade spam.

All changes passed by a stressful process like this.
I will not explain the armor issue because this comes before me (and this was the seed which put stef out of the dev's team... and I say seed because if the land was not fertile, the seed would not have grown).

The point is, we are humans, we are trying to please everybody, the dev's team must find a consensus, sometimes we got stressed, sometimes we stress other people, and we do not have infinity time to debate our ideas/tastes.
Sorry. For being being humans.

Eventually we do mistakes, and in the transition from 1.0 to 1.1 looks like we did even more than usual.
But the 1.1 release was late. We did everything (possible and impossible) in a f*cking hurry to make it true before 2011.

If we had more trusted people testing, helping and giving (friendly) feedbacks, must probably we would not have so much post-release issues.

The real supporters of this game were playing the trunk with the dev's, testing each change and proposition. Saying in the right time: "Hey! This change is a shit."

Also, I do not understand why you keep hitting the keystroke of "politics". The AC "childish politics" made drian and makke never really be part of this community, and part of the reason why the left (the main reason they left is real life requests, obviously... this is the main reason why everybody leaves this community).

[Alien]

I proposed in that thread increase the time of nades' respawn . The reducing of the score points for gib wasn't the conclusion. But i understand that propagation of the final decision.

The real supporters of this game were playing the trunk with the dev's, testing each change and proposition. Saying in the right time: "Hey! This change is a shit."

Everybody can offer his opinion in the forum where he can present mature opinion about the concrete change. If someone abuses the forum for next purposes, it is a problem of moderators. The opinion of random user and some regular irc user should have the same weight for you in this place. Your final decision should be merged from all sides.
Everybody isn't a fan of wasted evenings with you on irc. I personally don't care about your stands(it is confusing), i like the new system of blacklist except the central blacklist, i don't like the map restrictions. The comments about the system against cheaters by me and about the maps by me had one difference, the second one issue is taken probably as political. And this is the main problem of AC, the opinion in dev direction are legal and against are political.

These long posts are useless, reminds me valve matches. It is obvious people are coming here to discuss instead of to solve.

[Apollo{TyD}]

...We did everything (possible and impossible) in a f*cking hurry to make it true before 2011.

If we had more trusted people testing, helping and giving (friendly) feedbacks, must probably we would not have so much post-release issues.

When, I talked to you a few months ago and voiced that in my opinion the release has come too earlier and a longer test period might have been better, I've got a diss at once. Well, it seems to me that I obtain descent approval now.

The real supporters of this game were playing the trunk with the dev's, testing each change and proposition. Saying in the right time: "Hey! This change is a shit."

Well, if only critics are heared with interest when playing the trunk and only of well selected players ("the real supporters") - then it makes sense now, why several posts in the bug report threads have been skipped or commented boredly or irritably. On the other side it is normal then if several people have no interest in further reporting

Btw. have you ever noticed that you dividing willingly people in certain groups ("real supporters", "core elite") and these classifications are used in a positive-negative-distinction? This seems not very diplomatic. Just a hint.

[Brahma]

Yes... I am wrong in all these classifications.
I should just avoid to post.

[Apollo{TyD}]

Yes... I am wrong in all these classifications.
I should just avoid to post.

Avoiding the classifications is just ok.

[Huntsman]

i'm not apolo's best friend but he is right:"The problem is more that pepole believe that they have a say in the development of the game. That never has been and never will be. You can do discussions all the day long - at the end it's the developer's game and they decide and make what they want."

we can say what we think but that's all,we have NO right on where go this game.devs do it for their pleasure,on their free time.they're not here to work for US.

and i'm sure they do what they think good for this game and are abble to listen what players have to say if needed.so blame them for hours won't change anything and probably just bored them because they give more to AC than us.

for forum moderation: like the first day i've entered AC clan's life i'm convicted that NO clanplayers can moderate this forum without falling in some abusing attitude.

Very decent post, and is completely true in my opinion