The AC 1.1 cheat detection policy and the AC 1.0 cases
#31
brahma i didn't know you before i need your help someday. i think you did good job in Community but i think the new coming version will be more strict with cheaters and hackers. then no one will reclaim why he's banned or kicked. i wish it will be 90/100 or higher sure.

sorry for my bad English.
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#32
When I came back to AC then first 5 servers I joined all had hackers. Those were also the last 5 servers I will ever play in. I refuse to play AC until the matter of abolishing hackers is complete. I may play in 1.1 because of this new built in anti-cheat but as it stands I would like to thank you Brahama for all the help you have gave to me, the community, and all the time you have put in to making anti cheat systems. Yes I like your system and yes your anti cheat works but for now not many servers support it witch lead to hackers. An idea for 1.1 would be to give each player a public # id or something similar so that being able to post blacklists would be easier. Also giving universal players the accsess to these id numbers and the whole thing creating a easier way to post blacklists instead of partial ip. Its just a suggestion and it may be a wild one but, its something to consider. As for now I will still stay around the AC community but wont be playing much public AC. Again I would like to thank you Brahama for all the effort and work you put into your anti-cheat systems and I hope that no one will every complain to you about it because at least you have made a anti-cheat and attempted to stop hackers and help the community. The attempt you made is extremely helpful and it may be that one step we need to take to fully stop cheaters.
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#33
(25 Jun 10, 06:57PM)Revert Wrote: When I came back to AC then first 5 servers I joined all had hackers. Those were also the last 5 servers I will ever play in. I refuse to play AC until the matter of abolishing hackers is complete. I may play in 1.1 because of this new built in anti-cheat but as it stands I would like to thank you Brahama for all the help you have gave to me, the community, and all the time you have put in to making anti cheat systems. Yes I like your system and yes your anti cheat works but for now not many servers support it witch lead to hackers. An idea for 1.1 would be to give each player a public # id or something similar so that being able to post blacklists would be easier. Also giving universal players the accsess to these id numbers and the whole thing creating a easier way to post blacklists instead of partial ip. Its just a suggestion and it may be a wild one but, its something to consider. As for now I will still stay around the AC community but wont be playing much public AC. Again I would like to thank you Brahama for all the effort and work you put into your anti-cheat systems and I hope that no one will every complain to you about it because at least you have made a anti-cheat and attempted to stop hackers and help the community. The attempt you made is extremely helpful and it may be that one step we need to take to fully stop cheaters.
I totally disagree. I just hope AC won't become like you want.
And, if you usually meet cheaters on a server, go to another. Don't try to fight against them or to try to kick again and again.
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#34
[email protected] how about this... we get rid of anti cheat completely. Tell me if you agree or disagree. You are pretty much saying that you want hackers and cheaters. How about you take your stupid ass comments and go troll somewhere else.
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#35
I'm talking about user ID's idea.
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#36
You would. ^
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#37
First thx for Brahma for the AC 1.1 Cheat detection tool its badly needed now as more and more incidents i see everyday on AC.
@ Revert i share your view dude

Just want to add if we can apply some tool to the server itself for cheat detection that will also take IP address, MAC address and auto kicks or ban the person. That mean its upto the server admin to whether he use this tool or not or he rely on his own methods to tackle the Hacker, cheater issue. So we can have two different types of servers one who are monitored automatically and manually second who are manually monitored.
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#38
i know a good anticheat :) give respect to all players in match,win with humility and loose with smile.this will reduce cheaters for sure :)
what about arrogant players blacklist? :) THEY kill the game :)

i'm happy to see that brahma realised that he was the tool of a little part of the community to destruct the clan thoose guys don't want in game,when they have cheaters for mates.....and they don't respect the BL entry...this show how rules can be different dipending on who you are :)

congrats and thanks for all brahma,i hope your anticheat will be effective as soon as possible :)
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#39
What if we convert the blacklist into some universal plugin that servers can either use their own blacklist or a monitored global blacklist?
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#40
If I remember right, a centralized serverblacklist was planned.
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#41
cant you make a system (like there is in many other games). that makes a screenshot from the players view from the server side (dunno really how its done). So you can see if the player has a wallhack or something like that.

And you just need admins in all server that can quickly ban obvious cheaters. Alot of players are beeing called cheaters if there good + have high ping, which makes them look like cheaters, maybe like panico.

If you ban someone you must have conclusive evidence and not some weird statics like in mine and wolfs case.
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#42
Admins in all servers is unnecessary; the obvious cheaters will likely be auto-kicked. Not to mention it's difficult enough to find one admin, even on the servers that are supposed to be setting the standard.
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#43
But when a person gets banned is he banned from whole ac?

I dont know how many cheaters there are atm. But isnt there a chance its like one group of guys who just change their ip and come back everytime. Since ac isnt growing very rapidly it would be weird having new cheaters every day.
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#44
I think there are too many variables for us regulars to understand such as hit location hit rate hit position and consistency and many others i would not know of, but leave Brahma to his own. Oh and I have one question, before, Brahma, did you watch every demo multiple times and use your tools to manually look into every accusation sent to you, taking multiple weeks and hard work, or was it much simpler as in run a program, positive or negative, and a few demos.
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#45
I spent a huge unrewarded time watching demos, case by case, more than once, manually checking each case with tons of graphs, and analyzing the meaning of the numbers...


I will not do it again.
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#46
I think it is perhaps still worth doing in the case of high profile cheaters to set an example for the community. It will always be up to individual server owners if they agree with the evidence or not and if they wish to ban cheaters or not.
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#47
Bloodsport... a good part of the community members do not care if a "high profile member" really cheated or not... and this makes the huge effort in watching demos a complete waste of time.
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#48
Mmm yes you are right, but it is useful for people to make an informed choice of if they should allow a particular player onto their server, into a clan match, or into a clan.
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#49
I know i'm a bit late on this, but can someone points out what types of cheats are there and what consist of?
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#50
Brahma thank you for your work. It is because of you that I began playing AC again. Do not apologize to these people who don't like what you're doing. You code anti cheats. Watching demos is a waste of your valuable time. I clicked on this thread and saw basically the entire community arguing and apologizing. Damn this community is small :D GJ Brahma, and peace out.
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#51
(20 Jun 10, 07:29PM)Brahma Wrote: APanda... please!!!
We will block all cheats we can block... but if appear some really new annoying one, like far gib (which the server do not block yet), then create a blacklist entry to block the jerk in all possible servers.

I hope you do this well. I don't want to get blacklisted for getting too many lucky headshots across douze. :x

Also ^^^ what he said
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#52
what about ban avoiders and votehackers??
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#53
There is no such a thing like "vote hackers", and "ban avoiders" can be banned in the root (like I did to you know).
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#54
When I first read the original post by Brahma, I did so quickly and with more important concerns on my mind. If you read it quickly it all seems very reasonable and one might come to the conclusion that Brahma is just this really nice guy who only wants what’s best for ac and has had nothing but opposition and resentment from what he describers a s the “elite” of the game.
Well, it wasn’t like that was it Brahma? Fortunately for your case, the evidence of what it was like in reality got lost with the old forums.
The fact is Brahma had his own agenda for this game; it wasn’t just to offer his anti cheat system to the community. He doesn’t like the concept of elite, unless it seems, it’s his clan. But Brahma doesn’t have a clan I hear you say. Not so, there is a new clan called the dev clan; handpicked by Brahma by and large.
Brahma’s view of ac is populist in general he would have us believe.
That’s fine as an ideal but the reality is we have a more centralized and dictatorial central power than this game has ever had in the past. A brief look at the way the forums are moderated gives some indication of the prevailing attitude; this is the danger of too much power in the hands of an individual and where I would suggest the elite clan system was far better. Sure the clans squabbled and progress was slow but decision making that affected the game was more consensus orientated even if the flames rose rather high at times. The great advantage of the developers developing the game and the clans running it was if an injustice was done at one point it could be redressed at another and even through the flames clans communicated with one another via other channels not necessarily open and obvious to the general public.
The fact is Brahma had a great deal of support from the majority of those he describes as the “elite” when he initially took on his chief cheat finder mantle.
Problems arose when the evidence either wasn’t sufficient in other player’s eyes or not adequately explained or published.
For many of us, “Brahma says he hacks and so it must be” wasn’t adequate then and isn’t now.
Despite the scorn Brahma has for the opinions of the “elite” who spent hours adding to the blacklist and offering demos of suspected cheats for Brahma or anyone else to examine many of those “elite” were proven to be right in their “gut feeling gained from experience in the game and Brahma’ “empirical” methods eventually caught up and most accepted the end conclusions.

The simple fact is Brahma, whether or not it’s your fault, the fault of the “elite” clans or a combination of both; since your arrival and quest for power over this game the community has been more divided than I can remember and the level of tolerance for dissent has fallen drastically.
We may have a partially effective coded in anti cheat system now, but at what price?
So, please, lets not have too much of the “I’m just the reasonable well intentioned guy” stuff. Your irrational hatred of the established clans is self evident in your posts and your dogmatic approach to the forums and community is evident in the number of struck out names with banned underneath them on the main forums.
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#55
(03 Oct 10, 02:14PM)tipper|DES| Wrote: The fact is Brahma had his own agenda for this game;
I'n my opinion every dev (or consultant) has his own agenda and it isn't congruent with the roadmap. The development direction (the "vision") for this game is more unclear to me than years ago. That seems to be the major problem.

(03 Oct 10, 02:14PM)tipper|DES| Wrote: The simple fact is Brahma, whether or not it’s your fault, the fault of the “elite” clans or a combination of both; since your arrival and quest for power over this game the community has been more divided than I can remember and the level of tolerance for dissent has fallen drastically.

Well, I'm tired of reading stuff which is written down to mark someone or a group as the origin of all faults in AC's history. To make one thing clear: I'm not a friend of Brahma nor I like all the methods he used and the actions he showed. On the other hand we should stop with whitewashing the past. If we become realistic, then the history of community conflicts doesn't start with Brahma's appointment as developer. A hacked forums, clans under cheating suspect, the expulsion of a developer, hacked clients and servers, disagreements about the use of master/admin roles or blacklisting, inconsistent answers of the devs, dissatisfactions about the forums' moderation, resigning contributors ... only a few issues we have had already before. Recalling this and comparing it with the present there is only one conclusion we can draw: The whole community (devs, clans, players w/o clan) has failed so far. Therefore everyone should look at his own contribution for the fall down first.

(03 Oct 10, 02:14PM)tipper|DES| Wrote: We may have a partially effective coded in anti cheat system now, but at what price?

The question is - what is the alternative? More years of partially IP bans? More fun with hacked/modified clients?

We shouldn't forget that we've lost also a lot of members due the fact that the game has been become more than one time nearly unplayable by waves of cheaters/hackers/whatever we are calling them.

I can remember that many ppl denied the use of the blacklist when we have had already that waves - now it's a common tool. I can also remember the idea of central blacklist long time before - especially cause many players have had too much concerns about the power of server hosting clans. Now a central blacklist has been established (which is also a common tool in online gaming). Only two points which the majority of the community requested at some time and finally got. Of course nothing worked perfect at the beginning and nothing has been the golden way to get rid off the plaque we are calling cheaters and hackers. Nevertheless every step seems irreversible. I can only assert without doubt that I haven't seen ppl flying around or shooting 10 times faster since a while now.

(03 Oct 10, 02:14PM)tipper|DES| Wrote: That’s fine as an ideal but the reality is we have a more centralized and dictatorial central power than this game has ever had in the past. A brief look at the way the forums are moderated gives some indication of the prevailing attitude; ...

This game (and things belonging to it) never has been ruled in a democratic way. Or does we have had massive of polls about features or something else in the past? Well, I can't remember. But I can remember that also some of my posts have been deleted in the old forum by an admin when critizing his way in ruling something. Therefore this isn't a new phenomen. Also we have had seen all styles here: A too passive way, a more (over-)reacting one and a strict one. At the end there was always someone who started an agitation about it.

My two cents so far
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#56
(03 Oct 10, 07:55PM)Apollo{TyD} Wrote: I'n my opinion every dev (or consultant) has his own agenda and it isn't congruent with the roadmap.
Yet it seems that one wins, and the game takes a whole new direction (1.1).

(03 Oct 10, 07:55PM)Apollo{TyD} Wrote: The development direction (the "vision") for this game is more unclear to me than years ago.
True. I am thrilled at how dev's do whatever they want without considering any suggestions that players make, and blame these very players for not having contributed or spoken up before a change to the game was made. Now we see how step by step 1.1 is transformed back to 1.0.4.

(03 Oct 10, 07:55PM)Apollo{TyD} Wrote: Well, I'm tired of reading stuff which is written down to mark someone or a group as the origin of all faults in AC's history.
Then how shall we try to understand who or what has caused these faults?

(03 Oct 10, 07:55PM)Apollo{TyD} Wrote: one conclusion we can draw: The whole community (devs, clans, players w/o clan) has failed so far. Therefore everyone should look at his own contribution for the fall down first.
There must be a major incident to trigger such a massive *fall down*.

(03 Oct 10, 07:55PM)Apollo{TyD} Wrote: The question is - what is the alternative? More years of partially IP bans? More fun with hacked/modified clients?
A lagging anti-cheat with overwhelmingly large number of false detections is not a solution, at least a playable one. Honestly, I prefer blacklists, which has worked alright so far on hi-skill servers. Once an effective anti-cheat will be released, i will be more than happy to have it.

(03 Oct 10, 07:55PM)Apollo{TyD} Wrote: This game (and things belonging to it) never has been ruled in a democratic way.
That is one of the sources that causes so many problems.

Without an active discussion with devs, (not mods who for some reason interfere with everything we say and discuss) this game does not stand a chance to merge the community back the way it was.

[email protected]
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#57
I can’t really argue with your points Apollo because they are all valid to a degree.
I’m just a bit weary of the “elite” clan bashing.
For all their faults and all their different personalities they did vast amounts of work within this game and community in the past and for all the populist posturing by certain devs, I just see one “elite” replacing another and nothing to chose between them possibly.
It is true ac has never been democratic per se; however it seems to me it has become less so and generally less tolerant.
I realize the troll output on the forums is painful for some but what on earth do we expect when we have such a wide range of ages and mentalities. Let them have their say; we don’t have to give the more moronic posts any credence.
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#58
@tipper
Someone alert rk, flowtron, makke and drian... I guess they were not informed I am the owner of this game.
Btw, if you did not like me banning this guy, invite him to your clan.... him and his 20 accounts.

@Apollo
Ty... you pointed very well the current state of this forum.

@Pandel
GTFO... i never saw you helping this game, or testing the trunk when we were trying to find the bugs.
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#59
(03 Oct 10, 10:28PM)Brahma Wrote: @Pandel
GTFO... i never saw you helping this game, or testing the trunk when we were trying to find the bugs.

Maybe, but at least i am not trying to ruin it.

[email protected]

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#60
1.
(03 Oct 10, 08:47PM)[email protected] Wrote: There must be a major incident to trigger such a massive *fall down*.
It's a long time cummulation of events. I have already enlisted a few of them.

(03 Oct 10, 08:47PM)[email protected] Wrote: Then how shall we try to understand who or what has caused these faults?
Sometimes it's just enough to accept that there is a certain status quo.
Otherwise no one is able to start with getting other it.

(03 Oct 10, 08:47PM)[email protected] Wrote: A lagging anti-cheat with overwhelmingly large number of false detections is not a solution, at least a playable one. Honestly, I prefer blacklists, which has worked alright so far on hi-skill servers. Once an effective anti-cheat will be released, i will be more than happy to have it.
Well, I can't confirm any lagging neither that there is a "overwhelmingly large number of false detections" (the thread here
shows only a few; the most posts are just discussions - mostly about the afk kick). Also it can't be that much in relation to the country-wide IP-range-bans we have had in the past. The latter is also the reason for many faulty bans of innocent gamers. It's also the only answer to dynamic IPs which make blacklisting less effective cause the blacklisted gamer used this technical fact of his connection to evade any banishment. Therefore it is doubtful that it "has worked alright so far". It's just a game of cat and mouse between the server host/admin and the bad guys.

Btw. I don't say that it the AntiCheat is working perfect now; i'm not that optimistic. It's - like everything - in a process of development, which will be (probably) never ends, as long new hacks are in developement also.

(03 Oct 10, 08:47PM)[email protected] Wrote: That is one of the sources that causes so many problems.. this game does not stand a chance to merge the community back the way it was.
The problem is more that pepole believe that they have a say in the development of the game. That never has been and never will be. You can do discussions all the day long - at the end it's the developer's game and they decide and make what they want. Maybe this isn't clarified to the community as it should be and a false impression has been generated over the time.

2.
(03 Oct 10, 10:28PM)Brahma Wrote: @tipper
Btw, if you did not like me banning this guy, invite him to your clan.... him and his 20 accounts.
...
@Pandel
GTFO... i never saw you helping this game, or testing the trunk when we were trying to find the bugs.

(03 Oct 10, 10:39PM)[email protected] Wrote: Maybe, but at least i am not trying to ruin it.
[email protected]

I don't think that such comments are helping us further. There is already enough fuel added to the fire and the firemen are already tired.
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