Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Bukz]

Well the attack delay for the sniper rifle is 1500 milliseconds (1.5 seconds) so as long as the sound itself is shorter than that it should be OK. :)

[Waffles]

I can't remember if I had already posted this here or just talked to random people about it. But could a beta client be released across platforms that would allow in-game alteration of gun values? If there was a way to test multiple values on the fly amongst SVN testers it might give us a better gauge of adjustments that should be done. Closed source if necessary.

[Vermi]

I can't remember if I had already posted this here or just talked to random people about it. But could a beta client be released across platforms that would allow in-game alteration of gun values? If there was a way to test multiple values on the fly amongst SVN testers it might give us a better gauge of adjustments that should be done. Closed source if necessary.

most reasonable thing i have heard in a long time

[Roflcopter]

I can't remember if I had already posted this here or just talked to random people about it. But could a beta client be released across platforms that would allow in-game alteration of gun values? If there was a way to test multiple values on the fly amongst SVN testers it might give us a better gauge of adjustments that should be done. Closed source if necessary.

Yes please!

[Ronald_Reagan]

I want to make a client that gets gun values from the MS, and then change values weekly and have people play around with those values and give feedback.

I was going to make such a client (or attempt to), but I am just bogged down with stuff to do. No time :(

[flowtron]

Well the shotgun-testing-client does just that - for shotgun only - which was considered the last screw to fine-tune at the time; the basic concept could be adapted for more guns though, of course. When I left I was under the impression that finding some halfway acceptable values shouldn't be too hard - then release (possibly under a "beta"-tag), let the players find glitches in the balance. "beta" might dissuade some though, which would be counter-productive - you need lots and lots of games played and proper feedback, trying to improve balance not just improve the players weapon of choice!
I was expecting a one to three month run for this Balance-Candidate; with each passing month this period of field testing seems better than nothing happening.

[Waffles]

that is definitely where i got the original idea flow and it is a great idea imo. Obviously testers should try and be as objective as possible but that may be difficult for some. I'd be more than willing to try and organize matches with various players that are interested in multiple scenarios to try and test (as properly as possible) the gun values. At the current rate, the discussion seems to be moving slightly faster than new releases are made, so maybe putting the variables in the testers hands might prove to be the most effective and efficient means to reach, if not a consensus, then a general gauge for the devs to work with based on opinion as well as their own feeling.

[gignu]

Yea nice I will hepl you to test the weapons

[Aight]

This actually reminded me of a very hard task that those dealing with weapon balance will have to face, that goes beyond the numbers discussed here: The one between a good weapon balance for pub games or for clan matches. Imo they are two very different things. I personally think that it should always favour de pubs, caus is there where the action really happens.

That's exactly what I was thinking about, I was astonished someone mentioned that already. If you balance weapons based on private gameplay is it also balanced for pubs? Not necessarily, sniper could be a bit too strong for instance. And what if pubs get balanced? Shotgun, Sniper and Carbine might not have much of a chance on high competitive level. All I'm trying to point out is - there might not be a chance of getting both good balance for public and private gameplay but it can get close to it. Focus on balancing the automatic weapons + a nice shotty that requires aiming and "guaranteed" success (appropriate damage).

Shotgun is for public noobs.

But it shouldn't be just a public weapon.

This is the crucial point. I don't think the shotgun will ever be much used in inters / cm's just because of the weapon's nature (lots of damage on short range, few damage on long range). It's just disadvantaged in relation to the automatic weapons particulary but it's like that. This is what I like about AC, a bit of realism is kept, balance shouldn't go as far as changing a weapon so that it can actually be used against other guns on competitive level.

Shotgun is too weak in clan matches, it can't just be made weaker. It needs to be strong with finesse but weak otherwise.

Tbh Shotgun is the same as sniper, can never be in the middle. Clan Matches are what I play most but again, this game IS made for publics for the majority of players. Although I wish shotgun could be stronger, it'd be to strong for publics :/

I play with shotgun from time to time (public servers only). I'll give an example by showing a screenie to demonstrate that the shotgun is really overpowered now on public servers.

Spoiler

You shouldn't be able to get 1st on the scoreboard with such a difference of frags and deaths on douze (even if you play against noobs).
That's ridiculous. Don't misunderstand me, I like the current shotgun a lot but what if all good players decided to play with shotty on public servers? I know that it won't happen but that would be really ugly.

Anyways, can you get the release out soonish? Just get the shotgun inbetween 1.1 and 1.0

Ar inbetween 1.1 and 1.0

SMG the same

carbine fire rate up

sniper @ 82 dmg.

I agree with almost everything in this post. Sniper should stay the same as now. Carbine - hard to say but since it isn't used much and not easy to handle the fire rate could be slightly increased (just a little bit or else it would be too easy to use) or lower its recoil a bit. Especially that he mentioned smg staying the same is exactly what I think would be best. SMG as it is now is good, there's really no need to change it (coming from an smg user). It has low recoil, is quite easy to handle. I believe lowering the damage of the current ar slightly could balance ar and smg (changing every gun is not the way to go imo especially if there's nothing wrong about a weapon, it's just annoying).

So yes, helmets make things more unbalanced. Just decrease a little (not so much) the AR power.

Btw: I also tried the svn, that's why I'm actually posting. I didn't like the higher recoil of the smg (was a bit hard to control on short range!) and I think the shotty is weakened too much. Also the akimbo really seemed to be too powerful compared to smg and ar. Really nice job on the bots, they're even better than in 1.0 :D (I also played against "real players" to test the svn).

I also wonder why the pistol has 10 bullets now, I see no need for that. 8 Bullets have been enough, you were restricted sometimes if you haven't been accurate but it should be like this. 10 bullets encourage spamming instead of actual aiming.

[VenteX]

Only thing I disagree with ElCrema on is that the akimbo should be more powerful than all the other weapons. Like I've said before, it's a powerup. The way you keep it from being overpowered is by being careful with it's placement when designing maps.

Oh, and I'm happy with the pistol as it is in the SVN.

[Boomhauer]

I also wonder why the pistol has 10 bullets now, I see no need for that. 8 Bullets have been enough, you were restricted sometimes if you haven't been accurate but it should be like this. 10 bullets encourage spamming instead of actual aiming.

More bullets may encourage spamming from less experienced players....but for me (and i am sure plenty of others) it just means five sniper follow ups instead of 4 :D

[Edward]

I play with shotgun from time to time (public servers only). I'll give an example by showing a screenie to demonstrate that the shotgun is really overpowered now on public servers.

Spoiler

You shouldn't be able to get 1st on the scoreboard with such a difference of frags and deaths on douze (even if you play against noobs).

I can not understand why people say over and over again that the shotgun is over-powered in pubs. It is under-powered in pubs, inter and cm.
It has to be a powerful weapon on some maps. If not, what would be the interest to use it? People should be able to reach the first place with. Who would like to use a weapon with which he could not be the first? I would not...

I sometimes use shotgun to have fun, aiming like an ass and doing splats, but at the end my score is never really sexy (flags/frags/ratio).
On some maps like depot, sniper is over-powered. On other maps like arid, shotgun is over-powered. Take it as it is and just have fun. You can still change your primary weapon or think about some strategies to neutralize them :p

Just for the record :
http://i40.servimg.com/u/f40/16/60/58/81/20120318.jpg
If we disregard the fact that I am a sexy ratio whore (autoteam opened my eyes), I would not be able to pwn like that with a shotgun.

Sniper should stay the same as now.

On the one hand snipers have headshots, one the other hand try to kill an ennemy 100/100 with the combo sniper/pistol. Increase needed or back to 50 helmet max.
That is why we need more pistols too (I always miss the third when I see that the guy is still alive)

Only thing I disagree with ElCrema on is that the akimbo should be more powerful than all the other weapons. Like I've said before, it's a powerup. The way you keep it from being overpowered is by being careful with it's placement when designing maps.

Yeah I love akimbo and some of my friends call me akimbo whore in 1v1. I guess it can be annoying when someone is playing with it as his primary weapon.

[Xenon]

akimbo is fine as is, some people can't use it because their just bad with it, but majority are good and it really is op.

[Nightmare]

It's an smg with 4 more power. <3

[CatDog]

Hello, everyone!

Perhaps this has been mentioned, but doesn't it make sense to get rid of the shotguns' splatter? This game, from what I have seen so far, is very much a fast-paced close combat game, and one gun that gibs at close range seems way OP. I know everyone knows the shotty is OP but even in past versions of AC the shotty had an advantage on close quarters maps, which seem to be almost all of the well balanced maps...

Also the rate of fire on the sniper seems too low to me. When faced with a skilled SMG or AR player you have almost no chance of it ending well no matter how well you aim, unless you get lucky with a headshot. Shouldn't you be able to be competitive with the sniper without getting lucky? You could always follow up with a pistol, but that shouldn't be necessary...

All of this has probably been mentioned a million times, if so just ignore me!

[Vermi]

Hello, everyone!

I know everyone knows the shotty is OP
ignore me!

Ok

[Grenade]

^^^lol n1

[Kikaro]

I would like to see a redo of the Carbine. Its supposed to be a general rifle right? It feel like it is just a weakened sniper. I think a ROF increase and damage decrease would help it be what it could be. Make it a solid 3 hit kill and kill in the same time as the AR with 100%.

[Nightmare]

^I love you.

[Xenon]

I have got bored of posting in this thread, nothing will come of it because with over 40 pages of feedback they still can't balance the shotgun, if you release it, you'll win over alot of members in this community and although the shotgun is HARD to balance, it will always be OP or underpowered.

[.JK.]

Disable splatter on noobcannon, change damage range to 10-125. Make it have 4 ammo instead of 7, and decrease reload time time to 2000ms. Make damage decrease moderately for low to low-mid range then drop significantly from mid-long range, ending at 5 damage.
Decrease rate of time between shots for carbine to 640ms, while keeping the damage the same.

[titiPT]

Disable splatter on noobcannon, change damage range to 10-125. Make it have 4 ammo instead of 7, and decrease reload time time to 2000ms. Make damage decrease moderately for low to low-mid range then drop significantly from mid-long range, ending at 5 damage.

So, basically, make the shotgun useless?

[Sepehr]

Disable splatter on noobcannon, change damage range to 10-125. Make it have 4 ammo instead of 7, and decrease reload time time to 2000ms. Make damage decrease moderately for low to low-mid range then drop significantly from mid-long range, ending at 5 damage.
Decrease rate of time between shots for carbine to 640ms, while keeping the damage the same.

Please state more recommendations, Master.

[Roflcopter]

I am sick of these suggestions to nerf shotgun. I challenge .JK. and anyone else who thinks shotgun needs to be weaker to 1v1 me on the map of their choice in DM with shotgun. If you accept suggest a few times you can play and an IRC channel to meet.

There is not a player in the game who can beat me with shotgun on any map in DM, it's not strong at all.

[jAcKRoCk*]

You seem to forget that, there's a ton of us that can't beat you no matter what map, or weapon we chose, it's not if the player can or can't beat you, it's not if "Elite" players think its useless.

This game lives in the pubs, and lets face it, in pubs all you see are shotguns, and in pubs it's quite strong in the "hands" of a headless chicken just running going for frags.

"competitive" games are in no way a reflex of the community base of players.

[Roflcopter]

You seem to forget that, there's a ton of us that can't beat you no matter what map, or weapon we chose, it's not if the player can or can't beat you, it's not if "Elite" players think its useless.

This game lives in the pubs, and lets face it, in pubs all you see are shotguns, and in pubs it's quite strong in the "hands" of a headless chicken just running going for frags.

"competitive" games are in no way a reflex of the community base of players.

I've played pubs too but never found shotgunners hard to kill. I just don't see the complaint. And this is with unfixed servers where my AR drops 20-30% of the bullets I fire.

[jAcKRoCk*]

It's not about you that cant kill them, it's that many newcomers or not so skilled players can't even get close to them, I feel that's the big complain here.

[VenteX]

I don't think anything I might be able to say about weapon balance will be able to change anyone's mind, so I'm not going to bother with it.

I do think the devs are trying too hard to make sure everyone is pleased when it simply can't be done. There are too many different opinions to make the next release "perfect", and I'd honestly rather see the devs just go with their guts on this. It probably sounds stupid, but any improvement that can be made is something, even if it doesn't nail it 100%.

tl;dr: Release the SVN as it is (tweak it a bit if you insist), and touch up the weapon balance in a later release. People can and will make do with what they get.

[titiPT]

I agree with VenteX here. I know the devs want to take in account everyone's opinion, but in the end it comes down to what they think is best. Just release it how you feel it's most adequate, paying attention to what was posted on this thread.

[Roflcopter]

Don't you guys think that weapons shouldn't just be relevant to lower skilled players? It seems awfully sad to resign shotgun to just low-skill pubs. My proposals specifically had the aim of making shotgun harder to play but more effective if you're skilled (balanced on pubs, useful in matches).