Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Nightmare]

You can have 100% accuracy with the Carbine and still get ripped apart by the overpowered AR&SMG rage rage rage. Help out the carbineeee

like ikr!!

[ProSmoke]

You can have 100% accuracy with the Carbine and still get ripped apart by the overpowered AR&SMG rage rage rage. Help out the carbineeee

like ikr!!

Aha ikr i was thinking since its like 2 shots increase the rate of fire on it.

[Roflcopter]

I love how you call 2 shots over powered on a sniper. To even it up less recoil on the full auto guns but don't need a sniper.... Especially if it's at 2 shots even if you hit them in the chest

You're right, two shots should kill, I don't share my previous opinion that two shots without additional health should not kill. I'm not actually sure if that was my opinion at any time or is instead a misstatement.

The larger issue at the time was that a single sniper shot did so much damage two medkits weren't enough to withstand another shot. Sniper damage is back to 80 in SVN now.

[Oracle]

The larger issue at the time was that a single sniper shot did so much damage two medkits weren't enough to withstand another shot. Sniper damage is back to 80 in SVN now.

Yeah, else those OSOK pros would be good at DM too \:D

[jockskratos]

I feel the assault rifle is fine as it is in 1.104 as its kickback will often lock you up in corners so it's fairly ineffective on quite a few, tighter maps but the smg feels very weak even if you're on target, it seems to have far too much spread. The shotgun needs to be heavily nerfed, it's fine at lower playercounts but is absolutely overpowered on pub servers, it makes a lot of official maps like ac_arid and ac_rattrap unplayable (even though I feel that those two maps should be removed from the official maplist anyways). The shotgun is really the reason I mostly play on douze as there's enough free, open space for automatic guns to still be effective even on higher player counts. On most pub servers, 20/20 ctf, as soon as you turn a corner you're either splattered or have a frustratingly large amount of health taken off you from a weapon that lets you strafe any way you want at all times (no kickback) and that lets you be as innacurate as you want but still nets you an insta-kill.

[Orynge]

The shotgun needs to be heavily nerfed, it's fine at lower playercounts but is absolutely overpowered on pub servers, it makes a lot of official maps like ac_arid and ac_rattrap unplayable (even though I feel that those two maps should be removed from the official maplist anyways). The shotgun is really the reason I mostly play on douze as there's enough free, open space for automatic guns to still be effective even on higher player counts. On most pub servers, 20/20 ctf, as soon as you turn a corner you're either splattered or have a frustratingly large amount of health taken off you from a weapon that lets you strafe any way you want at all times (no kickback) and that lets you be as innacurate as you want but still nets you an insta-kill.

How many times does it need to be said that 'The shotgun has been nerfed'?
In fact, the only reason that 1.1.1 isn't out already is that the shotgun was too heavily nerfed, and it is now too weak.

[Nightmare]

and play some more clan matches to see how ridiculous the AR is.
<3 Bad ar/smg'ers can hold their own against very good snipers/carbiners/shotgunners.

[pweaks]

<3 Bad ar/smg'ers can hold their own against very good snipers

Don't know if serious or just plain dumb.

[Mr.OpTic]

and play some more clan matches to see how ridiculous the AR is.
<3 Bad ar/smg'ers can hold their own against very good snipers/carbiners/shotgunners.

What?


The reason why people complain a lot in game due to them being killed by snipers, carbines and the shotgun (specifically shotgun), is due to the fact that they have the ability to kill you instantly, which can be annoying, especially if you feel as though you didnt deserve to die. I think it's the more the other way round. Bad players who use snipers, carbines and shotguns, can frequently kill good ar's and smg's. Apologies if you were being sarcastic :P

[Nightmare]

blabla insult insult bla bla should be banned for breaking forum rules bla bla.

jajaja

Look at our recent clan match, game 1. Two low-level B}'s with AR's winning against two pretty good sniping BoB's. Hence "bad AR'ers can hold their own against good snipers/etc."
Forced you guys to switch to the bread & butter AR's, which led to a million flags in a few minutes ftw.
Main point being AR is OP compared to sniper/carbine/shotgun.
^If you disagree with this, I'd like to see a pweaks & OpTiC vs =MyS= shotguns/carbines vs. AR's :3

[titiPT]

Optic, Nightmare, it's important to discern between pubs and private matches. While Night is referring to private matches, optic is pretty clearly referring to pubs.

[Felix-The-Ghost]

In a game with wacky and unpredictable movement patterns like AC, weapons with high power/low fire rate like the sniper/carbine are harder to use (because IRL people in the army don't jump around/foxtrot/run in circles/rifle sprint :P)

AR and SMG give you a high firerate, meaning even if you miss some shots, you'll kill the sniper/cabine that misses 1 - 2 of their shots.

AR is the only weapon for effective rifle-sprinting/jumping, meaning adept users can capture flags much faster and/or be health-pack whore (I personally hate it when a challenge is made where I damage but am killed by an AR user, only to spectate them and watch them rifle sprint to 2-3 health packs before I can even spawn.

[Nightmare]

@titi: True Story <3 <3 <3
@Felix: ikr! The kickback is in need of a large reduction. Something closer to the smg's kickback, but more than the smg obv.
@*_*: sniper can headshot/shotgun can splatter. Carbine can't do anything, and it doesn't have the same killspeed of the AR/smg. It needs a special hax effect/or same killspeed.
Simple changes.

[Felix-The-Ghost]

I really like the idea of high caliber weapons, (sniper/carbine, coincidentally low fire-rate weapons requiring 100% accuracy for every shot to be effective) had armor piercing ability. (not a complete negate of armor, maybe?

IIRC splatters are no longer gibs? (I mean worth two frags) I like splatters, but it shouldn't splatter if the victim has a bunch of armor.

The following idea I'm just sorta tossing in just for discussion -- maybe headshots on people with helmets aren't always gibs? Even though Kevlar and helmets are the same I believe.

Knife in back = instagib? (only when directly behind enemy -- because IRL a person would dodge/parry if the knife was to the side.

</blasphemous_ideas>

[macm]

I thought there was a hit fix in the svn. i've been playing around in single player and the hit registration feels the same. On close range all shots register, across douze i lose something like 2-3 shots and miss a few thanks to the recoil (with AR), i should mention that i have the latest update and wasnt able to compile due to an error in the code, oh and i used the "/idlebots 1" command.

Another thing i noticed is that when i shot at a wall, if i shoot 5 bullets there will only be 4 bullet holes in the wall, if i shoot 10 there will be 6 or 7, i tested both close and long distances and i changed the bullethole.png to easely count the holes.

[Ronald_Reagan]

iirc there is a var to change the amount of bullet holes. There is also a hardcoded var for how long they last.

[Felix-The-Ghost]

With the bots it sounds like a spread issue -- not all bullet holes appearing in a wall sounds like sorcery, unless maybe multiple bullets hit the same spot.

[X-Ray_Dog]

Unless you fire the shotgun with no barrel at all, just straight bullet and chamber, any real shotgun is going to rape your face hard to a pretty decent distance. This is why current AC shotguns really aren't that bad if you know how to combat them.

cwutIdidthar

[pweaks]

Nightmare, I was talking about snipers, not shotguns and carbines. For example, Sanzo is a high caliber sniper player. For sure, he owns every mid level AR player. So, please don't argue about things you don't understand. Kthanxbai.

[Mr.OpTic]

jajaja

Look at our recent clan match, game 1. Two low-level B}'s with AR's winning against two pretty good sniping BoB's. Hence "bad AR'ers can hold their own against good snipers/etc."
Forced you guys to switch to the bread & butter AR's, which led to a million flags in a few minutes ftw.
Main point being AR is OP compared to sniper/carbine/shotgun.
^If you disagree with this, I'd like to see a pweaks & OpTiC vs =MyS= shotguns/carbines vs. AR's :3

Yes you're quire right if you didnt exaggerate the truth. But i wasnt referring to cm's, nor was i even referring to a match as a whole. I was pointing out individual situations.

[Nightmare]

Nightmare is awesome.

Thanks, bro! <3 You're awesome too. ;)
"Good Snipers" =/= "Great Snipers"

OpTic, what do you want done then? :3 headshots/splats gone so "noobs" can't OHK you?

[pweaks]

I'm not your bro, buddy.

[Xenon]

protip: take shotgun out
/rant

Anyways, can you get the release out soonish? Just get the shotgun inbetween 1.1 and 1.0

Ar inbetween 1.1 and 1.0

SMG the same

carbine fire rate up

sniper @ 82 dmg.

[Nightmare]

Wise stuff

F1

[Roflcopter]

Just get the shotgun inbetween 1.1 and 1.0

Ar inbetween 1.1 and 1.0

SMG the same

carbine fire rate up

sniper @ 82 dmg.

Shotgun is too weak in clan matches, it can't just be made weaker. It needs to be strong with finesse but weak otherwise.

SMG and AR are well balanced in SVN right now. SMG spread is slightly lower in general, AR has 2 less damage.

Pleased to see better SMG spread but why has the AR's burst fire been made worse? Burst firing isn't powerful enough already -- I don't want AR to lose what little finesse it has.

Sniper at 82 makes it quicker to kill than AR at close range. Can't have more than 81 damage sniper without it being overpowered. To be honest it'll always be overpowered or underpowered. The lower spread + 10-clip pistol do as much as is possible (to balance sniper).

[Vanquish]

Pleased to see better SMG spread but why has the AR's burst fire been made worse? Burst firing isn't powerful enough already -- I don't want AR to lose what little finesse it has.

Like I said in our 1v1 on douze yesterday, pulse firing ftw ;)

I agree with everything else you said though :D

[Xenon]

Shotgun is too weak in clan matches, it can't just be made weaker. It needs to be strong with finesse but weak otherwise.

Sniper at 82 makes it quicker to kill than AR at close range. Can't have more than 81 damage sniper without it being overpowered. To be honest it'll always be overpowered or underpowered. The lower spread + 10-clip pistol do as much as is possible (to balance sniper).

Tbh Shotgun is the same as sniper, can never be in the middle. Clan Matches are what I play most but again, this game IS made for publics for the majority of players. Although I wish shotgun could be stronger, it'd be to strong for publics :/

F1 to what you said @ sniper.

[Roflcopter]

Okay, I've been testing the shotgun for an hour and I think I have slightly better values than the ones currently proposed. Of course it's largely an opinion so let me say what I was aiming for:

Point-blank: instant kill
Very close (think engagement at corners): 80-90
Mid range (think normal engagement distance on desert): 45-60
Long range (almost the width of desert): 20-30

These are all assuming perfect aim, and indeed the current balance and my proposed balance requires precision that weren't necessary with the 1104 shotgun.

Close range a shotgunner now has less of a chance at gibbing, but can almost always follow the shot with 2 pistols to finish their opponent. This removes a lot of the overpoweredness from public games while presenting a suitable alternative for clan matches.

Mid range a shotgunner will usually be killed before they fire two shots so the damage needs to be at least 50 to make shotgun viable. Again, a shotgunner should use cover and bait opponents rather than direct fire. If they don't an SMG or AR player should win the fight will fairly high health.

At long range shotgun should be weak but still do meaningful damage. A single perfectly aimed shot can still be healed by a single medkit but several shots present modest damage. A shotgunner can't reasonably expect to get 4 shots in a row without an opponent moving into cover, getting health or returning fire. i.e. the shotgun isn't much more than a mild deterrent at long range.

	Current Suggested	My Suggestion
SGDMGTOTAL	88	85
SGCCdmg	500	550
SGCMdmg	325	350
SGCOdmg	175	100
SGDMGDISTB	50	50
SGDMGBONUS	62	65
SGCCbase	0	0
SGCCrange	45	40
SGCMbase	25	25
SGCMrange	60	60
SGCObase	50	45
SGCOrange	75	75

I'll add, I think the bonuses could be done better. Close range behavior seems a bit random. Can anyone advise be how the bonus system works?

[Nightmare]

F1 rofl's shotty :D
I also like the idea of making the shotgun/pistol combo a decent combo.

[ProSmoke]

20/30 for the width of desert? Isnt like 5/10 atm?

---

I think the sniper pistol is better because of the slow rate of fire. The sg shoots fast enough that by the time you change weApons it doesnt really matter.