Weapon Balance and Gameplay Discussion

[kitty]

AR is too powerful imho, special the AR-jump gives skilled players a huge advance (+ the dmg = deathly), i try to copy this with nadejump but mostly die with the try haha.

Sniper : I think the dmg is fine at all, maybe it should get a bit more balanced with the pistol.

Other things:

About the translation , me personally prefer it in english, but i think some are quiet happy to have it in german (or other languages) but you should either translate it all (or even mostly parts) or don' t.

"watch your language!" .... when i read this red letters i just have the feeling to repeat the "fuck" ;) when you really want to set up this, you should make a list of words (and not just the english ones) and also prosecute to use them, like 5 times bad words = kick , 10 = ban

it would be fine if you have a spamfilter or sth like that (tbh im not sure if we allready have it included)

against the camping : an autokick after a defined time would help, if people camp because tactic, they will move anyway (for example to watch all sides), if its just an annoying "i wont move my ass anywhere" -camper he will be kicked and an active player can replace him

I know its a big theme, but an discussion about a master-blacklist ( player+server) and
an admin -organisation would be useful. I often see Server runned by rude, offensive (and other negative behaviours) Owners, or they just even have no kind of admin. You never see someone around and your experience shows that the server is an attraction to shitty people, cuz they know they wont get kicked.

at least, i would like that the shotgun splatter counts twice, but i can imagine this would lead to an unfair score of all the shotcats ;)

[Luc@s]

seems that we really have a problem with AR jumps :D

About spamfilter : the current spam detection is really good, but seriously, server owners : don't forbid words like "fuck" or "shit" :( that's so frustrating :(

[kitty]

.. maybe it would increase the sniper+pistol combo when you would add an option, that you can disable the nade in autoscroll. I guess its mostly this weaponkind where you can take advantage on.

[Darkbee]

My Thoughts:
First off, map choice (should) always dictate weapon choice. Some weapons (should be) are better suited to certain maps. That seems to be less true now in the newer version...

Shotgun is a game-killer right now. It seems ridiculously easy to ramp up your kill-ratio at the moment, running around blowing a hole through everything in sight. I'm no expert but something needs to be done to tone down the power of the shotgun. I got really pissed off the other day when someone accused me of being a shotgun noob. I simply replied that I was using the weapon the works. Sad but true. I don't see how that is being a noob, that is being smart. Plain and simple, it pwns.

SMG seems to be the other real favorite, and definitely my "obvious" second choice behind the shotty. I like that the SMG seems to be more effective further away but that does make me question what the hell are the other weapons meant for? (carbine, AR and Sniper). It feels more like the SMG is trying to be all things to all people in this new version. It should be put back more in the direction of mid-to-close-range use weapon.

The Sniper rifle seems a touch harder but I still enjoy using it. Is it slower in the newer version? I seem to be cut down a lot faster these days. It's always been one of those weapons that takes a lot of skill to use effectively IMO. That fact probably shouldn't change. Not sure what I'd do with the sniper rifle TBH. I guess if I was pushed I'd say that it needs to be closer to a 1 shot, 1 kill weapon (ignoring headshots). That's not to say that it should be a guaranteed kill but it should be pretty close IMO.

The AR I barely used in the prior versions, and I don't think I've touched it at all in the newer version (I prefer to use the Carbine which is like a long-distance shotgun). The AR needs some serious work and always has IMHO. To my mind it was/is always the weapon that noobs use because they're stuck with it and don't know how to switch weapons (the "default" weapon). It feels like once they figure out how to switch weapons they never go back to it. I guess the AR is supposed to sit somewhere between the sniper/carbine and the SMG/Shotgun, but it doesn't really feel like it belongs anywhere ATM.

I didn't like the Carbine at first, it seemed very underpowered, but I was trying to use it like an SMG but that isn't going to work since the rate of fire is so much lower. However, once I adjusted my strategy I found that I rather liked it and it can work pretty well. You're still screwed if you get up close, pretty much like a sniper rifle... you'll probably have one chance so you'd better make it count. If I had a comment, I'd say maybe make it a fraction/whisker/hair more powerful.

Pistol is fine IMO.

I like that you only pickup nades one at a time. Am I right in thinking that you can hold 3 at a time now? If so I think that's a good counter-balance for only being able to pick up 1 at a time. For me I think the lower respawn rate (they don't respawn as fast right?) and the fact that you usually only pick up 1, helps significantly in reducing nade spamming. I'd say mission accomplished.

Balancing anything is hard! Every weapon has to have a weakness, if you have one weapon that pretty much does it all, why bother using any of the other weapons? Overall, I'd say the weapons are just about right (except the shotgun), they just need some minor tweaking. I will say that this isn't necessarily because of the newer version. Some weapons like the AR have always been in need of tweaking.

Finally, the old adage "you can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time", holds true here. You're always going to have haters. I think the best approach would be to form a small focus-group of trusted users (probably well known clans and members), and let them play-test various settings. Let the people who play the game regularly and know what they're talking about decide, and then everyone else just has to suck it up (myself included). The core of the game is still AC, all we're talking about is weapon balancing, the core won't change. While I applaud your efforts at getting community feedback, at some point you have to say discussion is over, lets test with a small group of users and come to our final decision.

Keep up the good work!

---

..but seriously, server owners : don't forbid words like "f**k" or "$#|t" :( that's so frustrating :(

For real yo? Come on man, small children play this game, we have to protect their delicate, innocent little ears and let them hone their pyscho-murdering skills in peace.

[OpenSource]

.. maybe it would increase the sniper+pistol combo when you would add an option, that you can disable the nade in autoscroll. I guess its mostly this weaponkind where you can take advantage on.

And for us that have computers with no working knifes like that to be removed. :)
Shit, im not a ninja. Im a soldier giving my life for teammate with flag.

Edit:

Am I right in thinking that you can hold 3 at a time now?
For me I think the lower respawn rate (they don't respawn as fast right?) and the fact that you usually only pick up 1, helps significantly in reducing nade spamming. I'd say mission accomplished.

Thats right. you can have 3.
Respawn time is good. The problem (for me at least) is that the power seems to way off. Its does to little damage.
When you can get killed with 100 hp and 100 armor by 2-3 shots by shotgun but a nada dosent get you at all there is something wrong.

[Brahma]

Maybe it is a good idea to test higher damage and higher damage range to the nades...

[makkE]

When you can get killed with 100 hp and 100 armor by 2-3 shots by shotgun but a nada dosent get you at all there is something wrong.

Yes. Probably the shotgun is overpowered :) Maybe the nade needs a tad of compensation for the stronger (not so much stronger since 1.1.03) armour.

[Darkbee]

Thats right. you can have 3.
Respawn time is good. The problem (for me at least) is that the power seems to way off. Its does to little damage.
When you can get killed with 100 hp and 100 armor by 2-3 shots by shotgun but a nada dosent get you at all there is something wrong.

Ah, well when you put it like that... I think if you up the damage on nades then you'd probably better increase the respawn time too. I agree though, nades should be more devastating than a shotgun.

Along those lines, I've always questioned the blast radius of nades, it seems incredibly small, but perhaps that's just me. I don't know enough about the game mechanics to know exactly how it works/is calculated.

Of course, you have to be careful not to create an uber weapon that is equivalent to just dropping a nuke, that'd kill gameplay badly.

[xxkid123]

i think everything is pretty good, however some changes could take place to even it out. smg has large distance cover fire, and short range, AR has middle distance, long, and if your good, short. one's fast but weaker, ones slow but stronger...pretty even to me.

the shotgun is way too powerful- maybe the 105 damage range is shortened?

the carbine is pretty pathetic....only people who specifically prefer or use it and have trained can use it. otherwise it's pointless. and who really wants to train? a few devoted will and kudos to them, but most don't.

now for the sniper...my favorite gun. i think the bullet trails could be made harder to see, or only a brief bit showing from where it's fired, an a brief bit where it hits. also, the 1 hit KO area could be spread to the chest to even it out, but only the headshot gives you the 2 frags, background "headshot" sound, and the cool exploding graphic. i find my self hitting everything i aim at (little splurts of blood), but i only get a few actual kills. so really, i might have aided 50 different kills, yet i get only one or two actual frags vs my 50 deaths from someone sneaking up (not that i complain- the hazards of trade). spreading to the chest will still require pretty good accuracy. also, if your pretty much good as dead if you get hit by a sniper, because you won't last a fight, then being spared the shame of being pistol whipped with you using a better weapon will be gone if the sniper is modded=D

[*SMG*_3m]

Along those lines, I've always questioned the blast radius of nades, it seems incredibly small, but perhaps that's just me. I don't know enough about the game mechanics to know exactly how it works/is calculated.

Chart of 1.1.0.3 guns, knives, and nades <<<< clicky here ^.^

(if there is problems with the link PM me.)

[etch]

1. for me all settings as 1.0.4 + carabine settings from 1.1.0.3
2. little increase Assault rifle

Finish.

[*SMG*_3m]

ahhh, there are other things that also changed,

1. the shotgun is much more powerful.
2. the SMG is much less powerful.
3. the nades are a fraction of their former self.
4. the sniper's damage has changed i believe (i forget if it was fixed from 1.1.0.1 or 1.1.0.2 or not.)


(4. i am not really sure anymore ^^)

[#M|A#Wolf]

I really think that nades should return to 2 nades per spawn, or at least return the nde gib to 2 frags. Now nades feel much more like an acessory.

I feel the nades more like a weapon to get rid of base campers faster :)

[*SMG*_3m]

it a weapon you can kill campers with Extremely effectively with, with little chance of death to yourself, which i love xD

[Mael]

When you can get killed with 100 hp and 100 armor by 2-3 shots by shotgun but a nada dosent get you at all there is something wrong.

Yes. Probably the shotgun is overpowered :) Maybe the nade needs a tad of compensation for the stronger (not so much stronger since 1.1.03) armour.

I took Undead from 100 75 to 3 7 with one grenade. That was in 1.1.0.1 with even stronger armour. I think the nades are pretty good where they are.

[bballn45]

from what i see, people are fine with sniper pistol as one shot combo. even the smg people are ok with it. like etch said all of the 1.0 settings besides ar. and use the ar from 1.1 and the carbine. then all weapons will be fair.

[Droid]

I will give my opinion about 1.0.4 shutting down and about improving future updates.

About 1.0.4 shutting down:
I feel that 1.0 shouldn't have been shut down when it did. From what I see, 1.1 is still in beta. There are still improvements to be made and bugs to fix. So why are you guys forcing the AC community to beta test? I think it should be optional. When all the bugs are fixed then I could understand shutting 1.0 down. This isn't off topic, because I am as makkE put it voicing my opinion and discussing the future changes required in a constructive way. I am only trying to help improve AC for the future, so stuff like this won't happen again.

After reading everyone's post about 1.0 shutting down it looks like the AC community is splitting. A lot of players prefer 1.0 over 1.1 according to this poll http://hi-skill.us/board/3705 and about half prefer it in this poll http://forum.cubers.net/thread-1462.html . Even today there are still people playing on 1.0 even after the master server was shut down. If so many people love and prefer 1.0 over 1.1 then why not combine stuff from 1.0 with 1.1. I think the devs in a future release should integrate the positives from 1.0 (ex. sniper). If you take the positives from each version, then the way I see it the community will become one again. Like taking the AR, anti cheat, and pistol from 1.1 and the sniper, shotgun, nades, and smg from 1.0. Then it's like a win/win. Yes everyone will have to make a sacrifice but in the end everyone will adjust and hopefully the AC community will become one again.


And if this doesn't happen then I just have improvements for 1.1:

AR: Fine the way it is.
SMG: maybe some more damage.
Sniper: make it like the sniper in 1.0
Shotgun: feels weaker on 1.1.0.3 (my weapon of choice)
Carbine: Fine the way it is.
Nades: they are fine but will they ever be 2 kills again?
Pistol: Fine the way it is.

[lucky]

yes i prefer 1.1 but droid is right with adding some stuff from 1.0 :D GO DROID!

[jAcKRoCk*]

I found SMG fun in 1.1 but still need a lot to learn about the gun, i think the AR it's finally what it was supposed to be an assault rifle powerfull and fast but maybe make it a little less easy to use ( not saying it's easy to me xD), and for me the most important the sniper since it's my fav weapon and the one that i use most i really didn't mind the damage or the 2 pistol shots issue i just feel that the sniper feel in-game it's a lot diferent it feels like a totaly new weapon it's heavy and slow i know it's a lot to ask but can you please set the sniper "feel" the way it was in 1.0?? Leave the damage if you want that's not the problem the shotty it's not a noob weapon since it takes quite some time to use it in a "normal" way but i think the spread needs to be a little bit more the carabine it's a defensive weapon? Because i've seen some players attack like mad zombies with it and succed, still my main weapon it's the sniper and i'm learning to use the smg just now so please take in mid what i ask :)

[JMM]

I'm convinced the sniper is fine as it is, but I do have a couple of good reasons to give it its extra +5 damage back:

1)Smaller head hitbox - takes more skill to actually pull a headshot, making it a more challenging weapon
2)Helmets - with armour now being abundant, even with the extra damage pulling a kill with only 1 pistol shot is a lot less likely

...so basically reasons that you've all heard a million times, but I think these are really important points.

Also, was the nade damage reduced as well? They do feel weaker... combined with that AND only 1 nade per pickup AND longer spawn time they feel pretty useless now. I would recommend bring back the old damage and spawn time, but keep 1 nade per pickup and carry capacity of 3.

EDIT: Also, can the nades finally be fixed so they don't bounce off people?

[jAcKRoCk*]

I say in my huge long post i don't mind the smaller hitbox in the head since y always aim to the center of the head xD but the feel of the weapon and the scope it's what it doesn't feel good for some reason :) but maybe that's just me idk

[Luc@s]

old smg was better
AR is too powerful now
Sniper has a smaller hitbox and should have same damage as before

[$hield]

The snipers hit box should be the same as it was in 1.04, i seem to be better at the 1.1 smg for some reason maybe because it has less recoil. idk. Ar is waaaay too powerful, just played dm douze with 2 others and all we used are Ar's cause its just too good.
And the shotgun should really not have the splatter the carbine's damage should go down to atleast 45-50.

[Luc@s]

the problem of AR is you can't aim players using it !
They do huge jumps on their sides, they are automatically defended.

[ElCrema]

Yes Luc@s, that's what I think to. Imo, the AR is actually more powerful than shotty. It is very hard to aim at a guy shooting an AR. It was like that in 1.0 too, let me make that clear, but few of us ever noticed that, caus one could hardly see a good player using it and noobs are easy to shot at no matter what weapon they use :P
This crazy moves that make you a hard target and the rifle sprint/jump were the only features of 1.0's AR that made it sometimes usefull, now we still have that + too easy handling + extra bullets + faster rof. As much as I love 1.1's AR, I feel like it has a bit too much power...

[Marreira]

In fact is that those players have never been efficient, is enjoying the assault rifle, why? the gun has an incredible firepower. twenty shots in the cartridge. Easy handling. If she was not up to the other, how explain the fact that many players have adopted it, even fans of the SMG, even though I love the SMG, I have to play assault rifle, because I know I'll lose the fight for any noob of assault rifle.
Result:
Assault Rifle is disproportionate.
One more thing, please disable the hitsound, this is the feature that most noob ever seen ... You guys have to let the player figure out whether or not hit, and tell him if he hit.
In practice it works well, if I'm a sniper, and makes the noise of hitsound ... Logically I know that shot and I put the pistol because the opponent is weak. This is the most noob thing I've ever seen.
I think the more difficult the game is, it will have more good players. Now if you guys make the assault cube too easy, he only has the presence of amateur players, and all the competitiveness that existed in version 1.0 will end.

[Brahma]

So the solution could be just to reduce a bit the AR kickback... right?

[makkE]

Then people will complain about less ar-sprint capabilities I fear.

Marreira: Hitsounds are not making anything easier. They help you to master the guns better, wich in my world helps competitiveness, rather than hindering it.

[JMM]

No, please, I want the kickback to stay.

I'd rather have the 1.04 AR with extra ammo to go with it, but I heard that the ROF has to be kept the same because of lag issues... I have no idea what that's about or if I just grossly misunderstood something.

Reducing the kickback, though, would make AR "like all other guns"... its kickback and the extra maneuverability it brings are the AR's specials, something that, IMO, is part of the gun.

EDIT:

Then people will complain about less ar-sprint capabilities I fear.

:)

[makkE]

JMM: The netcode simply handles shots better that come in a 40msec interval (or multiples).

The 130 rof of the AR caused quite some bullets to be completely dropped, especially on shaky connections. Having the rof at 120 fixes this.

I admit that I didn't take this into account when balancing the AR - that alone upped it's firepower quite a bit... I agree it must be nerfed a bit again.