Weapon Balance and Gameplay Discussion

[Undead]

sniper 85 damage
AR somehow make it less effective at short range and not godly when spraying, it shouldnt be a spray weapon.
SMG i can't say as i never use it.
carbine is fine, i love it.
shotgun really get pissed when 3 new players shoot at me from a distance with shotguns and i get killed in a single hit when usually id mow them all down.

[GunZ|Maj.Hillis]

Yeah the sniper sucks now....after I came back to the game after 4 months of not playing, I started playing in 1.0. My first day back I got 103 kills. Now I freakin' suck.

[*SMG*_3m]

I would love to see map restrictions that can be toggled by a server switch...


Also the shotty seems over powered. Now most maps are small and shotties are annoying as all get out.

EDIT: Am I the only one who notices the slightest delay when trying to fire the sniper?

i see it too, it always seems that i will have a 1 on 1 with another sniper he can kill me even if i shoot 1st, he always seems to have time for a 2nd shot before me, ....i thought i was just crazy...maybe i am, maybe it was some form of lag, who know

[MorganKell]

makke i don't know about this so-called depth you talk about with the grenades. I see AssaultCube as having 5 weapons + grenades = 6 weapons. I don't run in and spam people, I run in and throw two grenades. If I don't hit on those first shots, and with 1.1's new specs I won't hit for a long time, then I'm dead... however, if I do hit, then I think it's only fair that I get two points for the gib. Insta-Kill is not that big of a deal. If you are good enough Insta-Kill comes with any weapon in the game. Grenades are being downsized in order to deal with spammers, this I understand. however, by doing this, you are hurting the PLAYERS of grenades... meaning that 6th weapon that requires a whole quad ton of skill is being unfairly denigrated to sub humanoid status all because shimmy's can't hang with a bunch of nucking foobs.

[*SMG*_3m]

Knife has an idea. If you don't raise sniper damage back up to 85 to compensate for the incredible skill and aim needed to effectively pull of a sniper double pistol combo, make a pistol head hit count for 20 damage resulting in a sniper single pistol combo.

there is a idea, i actually quite like it, a pistol headshot, now that would get me laughing

[pwnage{TyD}]

Everything is fine.


(Except some helmet placements.)

[*SMG*_3m]

well i dont agree with all of this, but if i want to be in 1.1 i got to try to help,

I think maybe that there needs to be a better way to deal with spammer, ever game i can think of gives me two nades, maybe take something else away from them, give them a 10 second re spawn time, (up from 8) but whatever it is i would REALLY love to have my two best friends back, even with less damage. just the feel of having a second on to go for the kill is reassuring, calming you might say, knowing your not out after one shot. which frankly scares me when i forget i only have 1 and suddenly see myself trying to throw a SMG at someone (at this point i faceplam myself)

[$hield]

I reckon sniper should stay at 80 damage...
Everythings fine. Except that uber Ar

[MorganKell]

pwnage doesn't know what a weapon is. He configures servers, not AC. Ask him to play it and we'll see what he's got right along with everyone else who thinks 1.1.0.3 is the next best thing to sliced bread.

[Lumpaz]

My opinion:
AR is ok
Shotgun: raise the spread a bit.
SMG: less spread in continuous shooting (shooting continuously, you lose too many bullets due to random spread, and if you shoot in bursts, you lose too much time against other weapons... plus tracking and shooting bursts at the same time is not easy).
Carbine: yes, carbine campers are a nuisance; maybe raise the time between two consecutive shots
Sniper: please don't raise the damage, you're already pretty dead if you get one shot from a sniper, unless there is a health pack nearby.
Nades: 1 nade pickup is good, much less nade spammers (you can still carry 3, so what's the problem?).
I only play on public servers, so I can't tell anything about weapon balance for clan matches.

[$hield]

Say whaaaaaat raise the spread of the shotgun, in your dreams honey, its already way too uber haxory

[V-Man]

That's the two-edged sword of shotgun spread:
Large spread means you have to be closer to get a one-shot kill, but at the same time your aim doesn't need to be as good in order to damage opponents from a distance.
Small spread means you can get a one-shot kill from farther away, but your aim has to be better in order to hit anything.
Best to adjust outright damage, if anything.

[Luc@s]

I think that SMG is weak against AR for 1 reason :
1) If the AR-shooter controls his weapon, the SMG is too weak
2) Else, the AR shooter jumps from left to right because of AR recoil and it's hard to aim him with SMG. :/

[$hield]

Same with trying to get a hs on an Ar person.

[ReboundSuicide]

For me, the weapon choices are no big deal.
What really puts me off in the new version is the slow feel.
It's hard to describe, but i feel like I'm running through water all the time.
Everything feels just too slow. In 1.04, it was possible to take an enemy flag and run away if you were lucky, even with enemies shooting at you. Now that seems impossible.
I can't really tell if the speed with which you are moving really has changed, but it sure feels a lot slower.
That's the worst change for me, personally.
I always thought the pace of AC was just perfect. If i play, i want to relax, and want to have some quick fun. That's the reason why i quit CS, because there you could only be successful if you were sniping. With AC, you can also be quite successful if you play in a much more aggressive manner. Which is what i always did. And while i never had a high ratio because i was dying too often, i also had a lot of kills and most important, a lot of fun.
With 1.1, the feeling just isn't the same. Everything feels heavier.
Hope this adequately describes what I'm experiencing. And i really hope there is something that can be done about this, to put the Assault back into AssaultCube.

[OpenSource]

Shotgun is over powered.
Nadas seems to be under powered.

All others seem just fin to me.

My opinion.

[Blue_Pr!nt]

its very hard to explain what differs between it, but its easy to see that the game play has changed.
i feel a slight slowness to 1.1, im not quite sure where this comes from, the jump ability seems greater then in 1.0 - its not nice jumping so high/far (remember im describing the feel)

the smg, im not sure what changed recoil/spread? its not got the same handling, i can think of controlling the recoil but it seems like the aim is no longer their.

the ar in 1.0 was good if you could use it, long range was nice. now well, its still good but does not behave the same, in close (short space) its hard like you get stuck or its easy like 2 bullets killing (feel)

the sniper, wow in 1.1 i cant do much with it, my scope seems very different (i need to play with the mouse settings i think, speed and sensitivity / the learning sense) the power i think was a good change, not for stopping the 1 shot pistol move, but i feel that it was a difficult move to learn and when a newbie its hard to get away from that enemy. it was over used and some what abused by pro players.

carbine, i dont like the weapon cant comment much on it.

shotgun, wow, well in 1.0 it didnt piss me off much, although the odd millertime / CRF around the corner would lay me down. now, now, its annoying, i get killed quite easy by shotgunnners, with unknown names or previously terrible aim, even if slightly low and being shot from far death! :-/ the power is not nice.

grenades: 1 grenade LOVE IT, no more spam is great, but what happened to it? its slow to release / the movement is different? i tend to bounce alot in 1.1 off walls because the release is slower or something.

i just want my smg, i like the way 1.1 has moved, not sure about community input and suggestions so i will monitor this thread. consideration to some change would be nice, we need to find a common ground for everybody. not everyone uses these forums, but if the ones that are here do then we take them as a voice for the community.

the players with some attachment to the makers, that way we can get a common goal, we can have 1.1 features with abit more 1.0 feel / game play. we can gel abit more and be less abusive to the next player. some clan people make me sick, your attitudes suck, you are not amazing and no more special then the next unarmed.

BP

[JMM]

Reducing shotty damage is a difficult one... classically, shotty is a one shot, one kill weapon up close and that's what it should be like IMO. But since it does 105 damage, there isn't an awful lot of damage to reduce without taking this ability away... if the proposed shotty feature of sending its unlucky victims flying backwards was indeed implemented, I could well forgive reducing the current damage to 65-80, but the flight better be impressive and spread untouched.

[ReboundSuicide]

Reducing shotty damage is a difficult one... classically, shotty is a one shot, one kill weapon up close and that's what it should be like IMO. But since it does 105 damage, there isn't an awful lot of damage to reduce without taking this ability away... if the proposed shotty feature of sending its unlucky victims flying backwards was indeed implemented, I could well forgive reducing the current damage to 65-80, but the flight better be impressive and spread untouched.

Maybe it would be possible to adjust the damage dynamically with the distance to the target?
Don't know how difficult this would be, but it could work for the shotgun i think.

[JMM]

The above is a rather clever idea, actually.

However, come to think of it, I'd actually rather have a weaker shotty damage-wise if if can slam my enemy to the wall 20 cubes away.

[Luc@s]

Nades seems to be under powered.

yes, they are.

:(

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Reducing shotty damage is a difficult one... classically, shotty is a one shot, one kill weapon up close and that's what it should be like IMO. But since it does 105 damage, there isn't an awful lot of damage to reduce without taking this ability away... if the proposed shotty feature of sending its unlucky victims flying backwards was indeed implemented, I could well forgive reducing the current damage to 65-80, but the flight better be impressive and spread untouched.

Maybe it would be possible to adjust the damage dynamically with the distance to the target?
Don't know how difficult this would be, but it could work for the shotgun i think.

ihmo spread is too low

[makkE]

Basing the shotgun damage on distance from target alone (and having the pellets as a mere gfx) would surely be the best way to handle, but I am not sure if that wouldn't lag the netcode, since a lot more data needs to be processed.

I recall discussing this with eihrul, and iirc, it was not really do-able.

[Blue_Pr!nt]

dont grenades work on a distance to player/damage way? shotgun could be similar? although i dont know power limits for distance (if that makes sense)

i want physics/entity tracking server side that would stop wallhack and other information hacks. make the client only receive what it needs to know :-(

[Elite]

yeah the 1.0.4 smg would be very fine !
The spread is very shit in 1.1 .

[Luc@s]

dont grenades work on a distance to player/damage way? shotgun could be similar? although i dont know power limits for distance (if that makes sense)

i want physics/entity tracking server side that would stop wallhack and other information hacks. make the client only receive what it needs to know :-(

I totally agree on this point. I really thinks that is possible to code some functions server side doing that.
But it would only work with solid walls I guess (that would be nice anyway)

[Brahma]

My one cent:

I see a lot of forces here, each one pushing to one side.
Many of them are related to personal tastes, and are related to different choices of game play.
All of them are right (inside their scope), but we need to find a balance.
I beg you all, help us to find a balance... do not try to push the game to your personal taste.

All changes must be infinitesimal, otherwise we will face trouble again.
Maybe, the shotgun needs just a little bit more spread... maybe the carbine needs a bit more attack delay... maybe the smg damage could be 16 (again)...

The main issue we face is that each "maybe" cannot be really tested until half of the community is pissed by the change. Every time we try to balance the game, change little things and test it with the community, we eventually jump from the edge of the disaster.

Please community... be kind, and help us to find a balance. Be reasonable. Try to accept the wrong things 1.0 had, and try to enjoy the little changes we need to do fix that. Help us to find the (almost impossible) balance.

EDIT: In 3 months of 1.1 we had more than 50000 players testing it.... less than 2% kept playing it. It is not different in relation to 1.0.
I believe the AC does not satisfy the taste of 98% of the people which try it. So, it is expectable to us to face so much trouble every time we try to change little things.

[bballn45]

ok well i played with carbine last night for three hours. alot of people dont use it so dont give advice. here is my advice. i would suggest that its fine overall besides aiming but im a bad aimer so tthats just me. i think carbine should get a hs? what bout you guys?

edit: sry for no caps. mobile xd

[castiel]

Thoughts on equality of weapons:

Assault Rifle: Seems fine to me, if the other weapons are 'improved' to keep up with it, many people enjoy this weapon in 1.1.

Sniper Rifle: Honestly I didn't have an issue with the sniper in 1.0, dodge the first shot and you pretty much have them with decent aim, maybe if it went back to shot(82) + 1 pistol(18) = death, e.g 82 damage, I think it would keep the snipers happy, and the higher frequency of armour could also prevent the sniper + 1 pistol shot, for example if you have 25 armour it takes at least sniper + 2 pistol shots? They already have the loss of the larget hs box :P, I think maybe give them a bit of power back.

Shotgun: I think you can truly see that a weapon is out of balance when 90% of the server is using a weapon. And alot of the map rots seem to include maps where you'll easily get suck in corridors/tight spaces, e.g ac_gothic with 14 players in tktf. I think spread should be increased a tad on this one, I think most agree it is overpowered in 1.1.

Carbine: Another weapon I think is fine, in the hands of somebody who knows how/when to use it, it is a deadly weapon. I think it is very much only for certain situations/maps though. I don't think headshot or anything else needs to be implemented for this.

SMG: Whatever I say about this will be bias due to this being my personal favourite, I think it needs to be improved a little bit whether through spread, damage, I'd be quite happy for recoil to be increased at the gain of some more power/damage, as you can learn to account for and to play with recoil.

With increased armour strength in 1.1(I know it was reduced in 1.1.0.3) I think it has partly taken away from the pace of the gameplay(May sound stupid but I think it's noticeable), even if only by the fraction of a second, it is taking just that bit longer to kill somebody, so by SMG + Sniper being brought up to the speed of the current AR + Shotgun I think it'll bring back some of the speed and love from 1.0.4.

Hopefully i've helped in some way, if i'm wrong about your favourite weapon or your thoughts sorry in advance :)

A changed 1.1.0.4 will be interesting to try, so hopefully the community may be brought back together

[Viper]

sniper 85 damage
AR somehow make it less effective at short range and not godly when spraying, it shouldnt be a spray weapon.
SMG i can't say as i never use it.
carbine is fine, i love it.
shotgun really get pissed when 3 new players shoot at me from a distance with shotguns and i get killed in a single hit when usually id mow them all down.

True dat. even if it is Undead.

[titiPT]

I really think that nades should return to 2 nades per spawn, or at least return the nde gib to 2 frags. Now nades feel much more like an acessory.

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Oh, and smg should be more accurate in long range, to bring back the 1.0 vibe a little more.