Weapon Balance and Gameplay Discussion

[Brahma]

We could reduce the kickback by 5% and reduce the AR damage to 23 (one point)... We would have the same kickback of 1.0, and the effective damage per time of the AR would be a bit more like the 1.0 too.

[bballn45]

What about sniper, still gonna leave that weak or are you going to change it back to 1.0 settings.

[Luc@s]

So the solution could be just to reduce a bit the AR kickback... right?

yes


And I don't know why, AR players seem really laggy (maybe their side jumps ?)

[M__Stayla]

IMO the only weapon that is unbalanced is the shotgun - and that is only in pubs.

This is just true IMO.

Weapons are balanced, just shoty not.

IMO, Sniper is much better to handle now than in 1.0. Okay, the sniper damages 80 instead of 85, but it is much easyer to headshot now (imo).

the smg and the rifle is on the same level. the guys, who played smg in 1.0, just think it got much lower, because the rifle got better, and theyr're balanced now.

As panda already said, it just depends on the map. for example in desert T/DM, the smg is better than the rifle, because its a short distance everywhere. for example in depot, the rifle is better, because its better for long distances. you just need to become a all-rounder, and everything is perfect : D

[castiel]

IMO, Sniper is much better to handle now than in 1.0. Okay, the sniper damages 80 instead of 85, but it is much easyer to headshot now (imo).

How does a smaller hitbox make it easier to headshot? Also with 80 damage, 1 pistol shot doesn't kill anymore(I don't snipe, this is just from a snipers perspective)

the smg and the rifle is on the same level. the guys, who played smg in 1.0, just think it got much lower, because the rifle got better, and theyr're balanced now.

Again I disagree sorry, the smg seems(I could be wrong) super inaccurate, I get around 40% accuracy with it usually, on 1.0 i'd get around 60%(from the accuracy script, obviously not 100% accurate readings). It simply seems slower to kill somebody, again I could be wrong, but i'm talking no armour both games, the smg in 1.1 seems weaker.

[M__Stayla]

How does a smaller hitbox make it easier to headshot? Also with 80 damage, 1 pistol shot doesn't kill anymore(I don't snipe, this is just from a snipers perspective)

Well I play 3 weapons, Sniper, rifle and smg.
I know sniper isnt that "good" how it was in 1.0. that's why i said "In My Opinion" I just find it easyier to handle ;)

Again I disagree sorry, the smg seems(I could be wrong) super inaccurate, I get around 40% accuracy with it usually, on 1.0 i'd get around 60%(from the accuracy script, obviously not 100% accurate readings). It simply seems slower to kill somebody, again I could be wrong, but i'm talking no armour both games, the smg in 1.1 seems weaker.

Well, when 1.1 got released (it was 1.1.0.0), I asked about why smg got so worse. But brahma explained me, that it depends on the map. So I tried it, and now I know that he was right.

I was just quote Brahma :)

[Luc@s]

With ANY weapons, it's harder to aim AR players than the others. And I think that's shouldn't be the case.

[Shorty]

Weapons are balanced, just shoty not.

Are you retarded?

IMO, Sniper is much better to handle now than in 1.0. Okay, the sniper damages 80 instead of 85, but it is much easyer to headshot now (imo).

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING? The sniper is more difficult then ever, it took enough skill in 1.0 to be able to consistantly no-scope/quick switch and now both of them options are either impossible, or highly unlikely.

the smg and the rifle is on the same level. the guys, who played smg in 1.0, just think it got much lower, because the rifle got better, and theyr're balanced now.

You're joking me right? The AR should not be the strongest weapon in ALL situations.. which it currently is.

the smg is better than the rifle, because its a short distance everywhere. for example in depot, the rifle is better, because its better for long distances.

Wrong again. The AR can beat an smg upclose easily, because noobs can spray with it because of the 20 ammo + more damage...

Before you post things atleast thing about them indepth...

[Brahma]

What about sniper, still gonna leave that weak or are you going to change it back to 1.0 settings.

I do not think the sniper is weak. It is still quite easy to do head shots on the standing noobs (V-Man and TheCrema thought I was cheating.......), so it provides an incredible reward. Also, if you do not try to do the pistol combo, there is no difference in relation to the 1.0 (except about the hitbox change, but this is a fair change, afaik). If you try to do the pistol combo, the pistol is more precise now... so, no need to change the sniper anymore.

I'm convinced the sniper is fine as it is, but I do have a couple of good reasons to give it its extra +5 damage back:

1)Smaller head hitbox - takes more skill to actually pull a headshot, making it a more challenging weapon
2)Helmets - with armour now being abundant, even with the extra damage pulling a kill with only 1 pistol shot is a lot less likely

1) NO! The skill to do a head shot is _exactly_ the same. The head hit box was not changed. The difference is that if you miss the head shot, you do not hit the invisible area over the shoulders.
2) I must agree the inclusion of helmets in all maps made the game dynamics very different, but this affects all weapons, not only the sniper.

Also, was the nade damage reduced as well? They do feel weaker... combined with that AND only 1 nade per pickup AND longer spawn time they feel pretty useless now. I would recommend bring back the old damage and spawn time, but keep 1 nade per pickup and carry capacity of 3.

No... the damage is the same. But since everybody can get helmets, the effective "damage to kill" got higher. I think the nade range of impact should increase 10% as well the damage. BUT, this is a very delicate issue.

can the nades finally be fixed so they don't bounce off people?

What do you mean?

[M__Stayla]

Hmm shorty, hope you feel good after insulting me now :) sweet...

However, I'll replay myself: the sniper thing is just MY opinion (!) thats what I (!) think. i said it once, then twice, and now a third time, just for you ;) for ME the sniper is easier to handle ;)

about the smg thing, it's just what brahma said to me once. that was in 1.1.0.0, and I think, the weapons were the same in every new update ;)
I think Brahma knows what hes talking about, mate ;)

and ye, think whateva you want.

Was nice to talk with you, and I enjoy reading your childness here :D

[Brahma]

As M__Stayla said, the smg effectiveness depends on the map.
Also, if you aim too much in the region of the head, it means you will lose many hits (because of the hitbox change).

If you want to play with the smg in 1.1, try to aim in the legs and belly... avoid to keep your aim high.

[M__Stayla]

As M__Stayla said, the smg effectiveness depends on the map.
Also, if you aim too much in the region of the head, it means you will lose many hits (because of the hitbox change).

If you want to play with the smg in 1.1, try to aim in the legs and belly... avoid to keep your aim high.

Thanks brahma, for resolve the problem :D :)

[Marreira]

Brahma my sugestion is, only suggestion ok ;)

Reduce the number of bullets from the cartridge to 15 again, because that will prioritize the player who has good aim, and would not allow mistakes.
Or increase a little, the stride or the recoil of the assault rifle.

And Makke: The hitsound takes some of the excitement of the game, get that adrenaline. Did I hit? Is he that weak?
Just that.

But one thing is certain
the assault rifle and smg are not the same level.
The assault rifle makes the player ... Many are taking advantage of the extra advantage that the assult rifle provides.
And those who say they are lying or not is because they are taking advantage of, or how they explain the fact that they had never played with the assult rifle in version 1.0 and now they do not exchange it for anything.

[Brahma]

Marreira... I do not have the final word.
(Oh man...)

But maybe this is a solution... we could revert the AR clip back to 15 (or maybe try 17), and let the other stats as it is.

[Elite]

The AR is far too strong. Put higher recoil. Just increase the 1.0.4 AR a bit.
Increase the damage of the smg,need improved spread and recoil, best would be the 1.0.4 smg.
Put the damage of sniper back to 85. The new hitbox is fair.
Shotgun has now a very good change to frag, well in public its annoying , it destroy the fine and funny game.

The nade spam got really reduced or better said is 0, but maybe you should put the points for a nade gib back to 2.

Well and re-open the masterserver for 1.0.4. You can´t forbid players to play 1.0.4, if they like it more than 1.1.. If the critized points( weapon balance, ....) will be fixed , some improvemts, i am sure , players will give 1.1. a chance and change to them instead of stop AC.

[Luc@s]

Increase recoil will make AR players more "unaimable" !

[makkE]

Lucas, kickback and recoil are diffrent things.

Kickback = the push back you get from the weapon
Recoil: the way your crosshair moves up while shooting

[Luc@s]

Lucas, kickback and recoil are diffrent things.

Kickback = the push back you get from the weapon
Recoil: the way your crosshair moves up while shooting

ok sorry, I get confused with translation. We usually use same name for both in French.

About recoil, I'm not sure increase it is so good... maybe just a little bit... can't say

[JMM]

1) NO! The skill to do a head shot is _exactly_ the same. The head hit box was not changed. The difference is that if you miss the head shot, you do not hit the invisible area over the shoulders.
2) I must agree the inclusion of helmets in all maps made the game dynamics very different, but this affects all weapons, not only the sniper.

1) I see... but, well, that just means going for the head poses more of a risk, so it still makes it more challenging.
2) I see, but I just feel it affects the weapons differently.

No... the damage is the same. But since everybody can get helmets, the effective "damage to kill" got higher. I think the nade range of impact should increase 10% as well the damage. BUT, this is a very delicate issue.

Ah ok. In that case, I'd vote for increasing availability rather than power, i.e. more nades per pickup or less spawn time. *I* would go for the latter option, would make more sense with the max carry of 3.

What do you mean?

You know when you throw a nade and suddenly a teammate pops up right in front of you, the nade hits his head and instead of dropping some ~6 cubes from him like you would realistically expect the nade will bounce right back at your face like the guy was made of rubber and blow you into bits. I hate it. Also, I've messed about with .93 a little and I like how they're less bouncy in general.

[wolfbr]

for me, shotgun carbine and snipe are fine, but, smg and ar are undepowerd

suggestion> remove Kickback from AR and smg, more realisctic

the simplest way of balancing the weapons> damage would adjust according to body part,like wolfet (exemple: headshots take more damage, chest take medium damage and arms/legs lower damage), its make the game more fun and pro.

[JMM]

I can understand more damage for headshots, but less damage for arms & legs is a silly idea IMO.

Anyway, on to the subject of AR: if the attack delay have to be multiples of 40ms, how about upping it to 160ms instead and then giving it more damage (anywhere from 25 to 32 I reckon... with 25, it takes 1 less bullet to kill an unarmoured dude, and with 32 the damage/second remains 200, i.e. exactly what it is now). It would make it less of a spraygun and more of what it's supposed to be, a medium-long range weapon, and would make the kickback less noticeable too.

makkE: are those the... "official" terms for this game? It's kinda confusing sometimes, I remember going by your definitions and the someone corrected me that recoil is the kickback and what you call recoil is muzzle climb. The recoil becomes kind of a shady word since it can mean either...

[makkE]

Well, I know that our terminology differs from other games, but that's what we used thoughout development.

Recoil: aim moving up during shooting
Kickback: physical pushback on the player

[Gibstick]

JMM: 25 damage at 160ms between shots would be perfect, as it would still kill in 480ms unarmoured. +11111111

Remember when you considered giving the sniper "armour piercing" rounds, makkE or someone?

[makkE]

Err, what gun are we talking about?

[wolfbr]

I can understand more damage for headshots, but less damage for arms & legs is a silly idea IMO.

more pro grame, you must learn to aim better, players with low health can kill players with a lot of health/ammo if they know how to aim.
more balance, realism and fun

head = brain most vital organ -
cheast = has vital organs
arms and legs = Tools of the body

more important = more damage = more reealism = more fun : )

this helps balance the weapons balance, but, would be interesting to adjust the damage according to each body part (each weapon could cause damage to three different values ( head, cheast, arms/legs ).

for autos, you need to use bust fires in the correct body parts for maximize your damage and minimize the use of ammunition.

thus it is possible to quickly kill with any weapon, if you know how to use it.

Remember when you considered giving the sniper "armour piercing" rounds, makkE or someone?

i like the idea of piercing rounds, but, could make the sniper very powerful in certain situations, would be interesting if the damage was reduced as they reach the targets

[Gibstick]

AR with 25 damage and 160ms between shots would make it less of a spray weapon.

Sniper could have armour piercing rounds.

[JMM]

more pro grame, you must learn to aim better, players with low health can kill players with a lot of health/ammo if they know how to aim.
more balance, realism and fun

head = brain most vital organ -
cheast = has vital organs
arms and legs = Tools of the body

I've explained this before, but anyway: sure, in reality, you stand a better chance of making it alive if you get shot to your leg instead of chest. But in a war, if you get shot in your arm or leg, you're essentially useless. You will be unable to fight, and in context of this game, you are dead. Also, you seem to have this common misconception that because limbs are just "tools" and have no vital organs, having bullets in them is pretty harmless. Fact is, your limbs have numerous arteries and the likes, and you have to realise that while they don't house any vital organs, in reality getting shot in an arm or leg can be just as dangerous as having a bullet in your lung or liver.

more important = more damage = more reealism = more fun : )

Realism isn't fun. If it was, nobody would have come up with the idea of "games" since you could just be having fun in your cold, hard realistic (and fun!!11) reality.

[wolfbr]

fun over realism, i talk about it.
the vast majority of games use a similar damage system (head, cheast, arms/legs.) it adds more competitiveness and more help in the balance,

Fact is, your limbs have numerous arteries and the likes, and you have to realise that while they don't house any vital organs, in reality getting shot in an arm or leg can be just as dangerous as having a bullet in your lung or liver.

yes, you can move your arms without the help of the brain,heart(blood),lung....(zombies can do this, serius)

---------------------------------------
currently if you have little health you will have much advantage over downside, you can be very good, but, a beginner can kill you because he had enough time getting shot.
if you had a sight better than his, just shoot where it causes more damage(chest and head) and you can kill him quickly before it kills you(like the most fps games).

about autos> Currently, players just hold the fire button, targeting in the legs to kill enemies(recoil), its fun?
would be more interesting to aiming in the chest and giving small bursts of fire, without wasting ammo.(like cs, urban terror, cod, wolfet and others arcades semi/realism fps)

currently, you only can kill quickly, using the shotgun or sniper(head shots or automatic coverage), leaving the game unbalanced on some maps, or making the players to stick only to a weapon(exemple: shotgun in small maps or carbine in ctf).

in short, different damage for each body part help in game balance. : )

[JMM]

the vast majority of games use a similar damage system (head, cheast, arms/legs.) it adds more competitiveness and more help in the balance,

"Because vast majority" is a poor justification. And really, I don't see how it adds competitiveness or helps balance at all.

yes, you can move your arms without the help of the brain,heart(blood),lung....(zombies can do this, serius)

Not sure what this means...

currently if you have little health you will have much advantage over downside, you can be very good, but, a beginner can kill you because he had enough time getting shot.
if you had a sight better than his, just shoot where it causes more damage(chest and head) and you can kill him quickly before it kills you(like the most fps games).

If you have little health, you don't run headlong into battle, you avoid the enemy, retreat, get health pickups... or if you have no option but to fight, you dodge, jump, maneuver around his bullets and beat him. It's not like in most shooters... AC is more fast paced and offers these different options to fight that other games don't have, relying more on team tactics.

about autos> Currently, players just hold the fire button, targeting in the legs to kill enemies(recoil), its fun?
would be more interesting to aiming in the chest and giving small bursts of fire, without wasting ammo.(like cs, urban terror, cod, wolfet and others arcades semi/realism fps)

You can already do that. Mind, as it currently is you have to do that anyway because spraying makes your spread go all tits and you can't win just by holding the mouse button down, with the exception of extremely close combat. So, really, what you just said there is untrue.

currently, you only can kill quickly, using the shotgun or sniper(head shots or automatic coverage), leaving the game unbalanced on some maps, or making the players to stick only to a weapon(exemple: shotgun in small maps or carbine in ctf).

How exactly would different damage to different body parts change this?

in short, different damage for each body part help in game balance. : )

...maybe. But I'm still not convinced.

[wolfbr]

"Because vast majority" is a poor justification. And really, I don't see how it adds competitiveness or helps balance at all.

maybe, but if this "works fine" in most fpsgames, why not work fine in ac?

Not sure what this means...

me to

If you have little health, you don't run headlong into battle, you avoid the enemy, retreat, get health pickups... or if you have no option but to fight, you dodge, jump, maneuver around his bullets and beat him. It's not like in most shooters... AC is more fast paced and offers these different options to fight that other games don't have, relying more on team tactics.

the most arcades semi/realism shooters you can do it(exemple: play urban terror,wolfet/true combat elite,free fps like AC).
if you gave litte health in AC, your chances of survival are very low, because no matter how good you are, the enemy will kill you first, unless it has a very bad aiming.

You can already do that. Mind, as it currently is you have to do that anyway because spraying makes your spread go all tits and you can't win just by holding the mouse button down, with the exception of extremely close combat. So, really, what you just said there is untrue.

in long range, players using smg do it, and they kill you(spread), because it makes no difference whether the shot hit his foot or on your forehead.

How exactly would different damage to different body parts change this?

headshots? or shoot where only cause more damage(chest,, or head when possible), you kill the enemy faster, causing more damage in less time.

...maybe. But I'm still not convinced.

maybe you'll come, maybe not, I do not know the answer