You guys are at each others throats and its making me sick
#1
I come back after almost a year of inactivity to see almost the same flame wars and the same arguments about balance that caused me to leave in the first place. This argument is simply the vocal minority over the silent majority.

Why do I say this? because before the master server list was purged of unofficial map servers, the list was filled with servers that supported unofficial maps. I love unofficial maps just as I love official maps, and these can be quite a fun break from the old 24/7 dust2 grind. true they often lagged, but that was the price you had to pay to play these maps, and to me it was worth it.

Official maps were, at least to me, mostly the same. you always had your long range hallway, your mid game flanks, and the shotty corners. thats not to say these maps weren't creatively executed, the height field technique used to simulate missing floor tiles was ingenious in my opinion, and i used it on many of my maps. I had hours of fun on these maps, and even today when not too many new ones are added, I still love it.

Unofficial maps always had that jankidy look to them, and I think that was part of their charm. one of those skyscraper city maps was what introduced me to ac, and helped improve my sniping game significantly. there was a heavy focus on sniping, but close range was also covered. something i've noticed with all unofficial maps is that wherever there is a sniping spot, there is a route you can take with your shotgun or submachine gun. I guess the biggest reason I liked these maps was for the variety. you could be sniping someone from a tower miles away or storming the beaches of normandy. To this day I have never seen an fps that incorporated this level of variety in gameplay.

That isn't to say that all unofficial maps are gold. most of the time, pardon the french, they are shit. neon lights on a tile warehouse with piss yellow water isn't the most pleasing map. that doesn't mean i never gave those maps a chance. every map that i came across i give it a go, no matter how bad it looks from the outside.

the main problem i found with official maps these days is that only a handful have been added to the 'official' map rotation. ac_deltaforce is a breathtaking map that had actually well done mountains, but it never saw much action beyond the handful of akimbo posts. I suppose that there is always the argument of a map not meeting quality standards, but the game comes with a mapmaker built in. there should be a significant amount of maps in the average map rotation.

The move to make map restrictions is very controversial, and I don't know where I stand on it. the ones pushing for the move want more quality out of the thousands of maps churned out by assault cube mappers, while the ones against want to play their favorite maps. I like the ideas of those for the movement, but I think their solution is wrong. restriction does nothing for the community. what happened back when the master server list was purged? practically nothing. New official style maps came at essentially the same pace as before, and unofficial maps were slowed in distribution because of the lack of servers. If i want to experiment with the engine and make a cool map, I won't take my time to make a competitive ctf map, simply because I know it will never get played on. the people who like these types of maps have very high standards and one off corridor means your map is useless. I have tried making these maps, and they are tricky to do. In my opinion they are just not worth the effort. I would let someone that actually plays them make them.

Sure unofficial maps show little skill involved in the process, but it is a fact that the silent majority of the community accepts them, and they will always have a presence. people talk of how they want players to make maps like how AC was meant to be played, but these people don't realize the trouble, pressure, and commitment required to make these maps. failure happens 99% of the time, just look at all of the maps sitting in akimbo vaults that never get playing time. Its not the game engine that needs to be restricted, the community has to be willing to accept more and more maps into the map rotation, regardless of their competitive playability.

Weapon balance has been debated for years and to be honest, not much has been changed for the better. this is because people need to realize pubs and competition have different needs for weapons, and they should be seen as such. Look at TF2. hundreds of different weapons and several different classes, yet only a handful are added to competitive servers. seeing as the game is open source, perhaps a separate competitive client should be created to tailor to the needs of clan tournaments.

TL;DR
Community has to treat each other with more love if they want quality maps. Servers need to accept more maps into their map rotation. Competitive players who don't like this idea should make private clan servers with their own maps and modifications to weapon balance.

I suppose you can call this a rant or a flame, but really it is just my perspective of what the community is dealing with, from an old pubber who has seen the previous cycle.
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#2
[Image: citizenkane.gif]

In all honesty though, your post was very good, mainly because it wasn't a lot of whining, but a well-written argument, especially since you seem like a somewhat experienced player.
I salute you, sir.
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#3
Its always good to read well written opinions!
Quote:To this day I have never seen an fps that incorporated this level of variety in gameplay.
And you didnt even mention gemas , XD
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#4
(27 Mar 12, 12:11AM)ActionGoose Wrote: TL;DR
[Image: PI8TQ.gif]

ftfy
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#5
Understood good sir to the utmost of utmostliest ;) There are some great laddered servers that do provide some pretty cool unofficial maps within their maprot out there. Ive seen some maps as casa, village, brick... just to name a few , cause they are the most played(silence :) <<).

(27 Mar 12, 12:11AM)ActionGoose Wrote: Sure unofficial maps show little skill involved in the process
Some of them show a ton of skill but just arent played as often as the should be, say as much as DEPOT <<GRR or Shine <<YAY(i know not unofficial)

(27 Mar 12, 12:11AM)ActionGoose Wrote: almost a year of inactivity to see almost the same flame wars and the same arguments about balance that caused me to leave in the first place.
Community has to treat each other with more love if they want quality maps.
Great point man, I see it getting better all the time in my 2 yrs of playing and 1.5 on the forums, even the 10 yr olds know how to contribute. Don't let anyone push you away man. If you like this game stick with it,if not take a long hard break, which you have done, but never compare AC to another game CAUSE it is 1 OF A KIND. I hope ya stick around PEACE AND CHICKEN GREASE

Edit: I agree with alot of what ya said. I just think AC is very unique in its' own ways, where else can you throw a nade and cube stops it at the perfect point at many maps an blows up right in front of your face and kill s you and 3 teammates pfft. Good post Goose
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#6
I know what you are talking about.... But there are servers that have plenty of cool unofficial maps. Checkout DES| Five Finger Death Punch more specifically. There are others, I just don't recall what they are. As far as map restriction for COMPETITIVE play, I agree with it. I simply think that more maps could be added to the official maps list. There are a lot out there that should be, IMO.
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#7
Well, damn. Someone has a good point for once. Even makes me feel like I've been selfish o_o

Bravo, OP. Seriously.
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#8
Action Goose you really nailed it :).. -exactly my point of view -Good speach! :)
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#9
(27 Mar 12, 12:11AM)ActionGoose Wrote: the ones pushing for the move want more quality out of the thousands of maps churned out by assault cube mappers, while the ones against want to play their favorite maps. I like the ideas of those for the movement, but I think their solution is wrong. restriction does nothing for the community.

I agree with everything in the post, but especially this part. Like shad-99 said, you really nailed it.
Your post was very well reasoned and well written, and I hope others can take after your example.
* Lantry glares at Habluka
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#10
you are an uncharted comet, or you're new.
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#11
(27 Mar 12, 03:57AM)Lantry Wrote:
(27 Mar 12, 12:11AM)ActionGoose Wrote: same old

I agree with everything in the post, but especially this part. Like shad-99 said, you really nailed it.
lol like it haven't been said a hundred times before by a hundred people

Now, if our friend ShadowZ would have said something like "This post sucked, you suck to", I wonder how the rest of you would have replied. Peer pressure, it's on the internet to! /sad
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#12
[Image: n5i0dfxg.5ns.png]

Very well written. I understand your points, especially because when I first stumbled across this game, the first map I basically played was a crapmap (such as Headshot_City and ac_TwinTowers). I loved playing crapmaps back then, and playing a CTF with an AR or SMG was very bizarre to me. I owe it to hi-skill for enlightening me on playing CTFs on well-made maps. :p
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#13
"If i want to experiment with the engine and make a cool map, I won't take my time to make a competitive ctf map, simply because I know it will never get played on."

But if you spend a few months making a good looking map youll get a lot of compliments:D Thats not enough?

Them: "awesome map dude, maps like this are the reason i play ac"
You: "i hope you will play it?!"
Them: "nope, we will play the same maps we have been playing for years"

MrFullOfShit: "Just because you never see it in public servers doesnt mean its not being played"
You: "wtf"
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#14
(27 Mar 12, 09:22AM)|HP| Wrote: But if you spend a few months making a good looking map youll get a lot of compliments:D Thats not enough?

Do you know all these maps?:
ac_sylang
ac_palenque
ac_swamp
ac_cavern
ac_warfare

Well, each maps have a very good looking, some have less good gameplay, but each took me more than 2 months (4 for ac_sylang, 5 for ac_palenque, 6 for ac_warfare) and they are not played.
I can understand that ac_warfare and ac_sylang are not played at all, the gameplay isn't that good (ac_palenque = costom contents too) but for ac_cavern ac_swamp sorry but i don't understand, we worked so many hours with Undead only for a good gameplay, each bases are as fair as we can do cause we made our best for the gameplay and for a fair game on each maps, and it's not enought.
I made a lot of maps, think i'm not a bad mapper but i don't know the secret to make an official map.
If we compare elite new maps with ac_snow/ac_aqueous/ac_toxic/ac_keller we can say that they had a bad evolution with new versions and they don't fit anymore with the new gameplay and weapon balance.

Btw: when mappers make maps, it's not to be complemented.
Btw2: I read all the entire post, i'm agree for the "global map idea" but i must assume that we must change the weapon balance just because we can still say (after more than 1 year playing the 1.1) "it was better before".

*It's hard to make a good weapon balance but it's impossible to make all existing maps fit with the weapon balance evolution.*

Sry bad keyboard.
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#15
(27 Mar 12, 10:59AM).ExodusS* Wrote:
(27 Mar 12, 09:22AM)|HP| Wrote: But if you spend a few months making a good looking map youll get a lot of compliments:D Thats not enough?

Do you know all these maps?:
ac_sylang
..

I use irony and sarcasm in 90% of my posts...sorry i cant help it:D

I dont know some of those maps, thats one of the problems:D
I want to see them though. Yes, and i guess making a map with good gameplay that will make people come back to it
is harder then actually adding a shit load of details. Also, i think that many maps do indeed have good gameplay but are still not being played because of reasons i dont know.
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#16
(27 Mar 12, 07:47AM)RealViking Wrote: ...
I wonder how the rest of you would have replied.

Probably the same way. It's sort of what happens when you, how can I put this, show some open-mindedness? Believe it or not, the AC community (or rather, "the elite," a phrase I still find hilarious) is not just one person. Everyone has their own opinion, everybody has the ability to change their opinion.

Maybe you should try considering other perspectives before you keep repeatedly bringing your old grudges to every thread. It's getting quite stale.
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#17
Its sad that some classic gemas arent playble anymore but I think the map restrictions are good because they hopefully motivate new mappers to try, and make quality custom maps! And from what I saw on servers from TyD, BoB and DES and also many smaller groups, some good ones are actually getting played a lot more again!

I think weapon balance should be the same on pubs and on competitive servers! Its just one game we play, not two!
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#18
My opinion is known but i would add, all newcomers forced to default maps will hardly understand what AC was.
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#19
Expected more than a paragraph on flaming going by the title. :)
and 100% agree with renga_wtf

<3 devs who work.
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#20
(27 Mar 12, 12:45PM)Alien Wrote: My opinion is known but i would add, all newcomers forced to default maps will hardly understand what AC was.
They're not being forced, Alien. At least not by AC; it's often the newcomers themselves who refuse to stay in a server on a map they don't know, or F2 a vote for it.
The maps are playable, whether it's AC-style or fullbright with excellent layout/gameplay or twintowers/@camper/headshotcity-style or gemas, it's just the voting that's stopping the variety. I'm sure you'd like to see a return of 'master'. I'm sorry, but I wasn't around then so I don't know why it was removed - I'd guess at too much abuse.
Would it help if there was an 'Official AC' server, with an enforced maprot of custom work?

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#21
Best thing would be to have 2 official maserservers
with the first one being default and checked in the "masterserver" menu
This way new players that just started playing will only see the maps you want them to see aka "official looking ones". And then later when the new players learn how ac works and for which maps it was originally made for then they can use their own free will and decide to check the other masterserver box in the menu and use the other not so restricted masterserver.

Something like that... or just a button that shows/hides maps that dont fit the ac maping standards.

How hard it would be to make this happen i am not sure.
But it shouldnt be too hard..
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#22
(27 Mar 12, 12:16PM)VenteX Wrote:
(27 Mar 12, 07:47AM)RealViking Wrote: ...
I wonder how the rest of you would have replied.

Probably the same way. It's sort of what happens when you, how can I put this, show some open-mindedness? Believe it or not, the AC community (or rather, "the elite," a phrase I still find hilarious) is not just one person. Everyone has their own opinion, everybody has the ability to change their opinion.

Maybe you should try considering other perspectives before you keep repeatedly bringing your old grudges to every thread. It's getting quite stale.

VenteX oh VenteX. I love breaking down your posts to spare parts and then putting the parts back together again but in the correct way like it should be. Let's give this one a try. You are talking about the AC community as if the people on this forum are The Community but the real community are out there playing gemas and [email protected] and other crapmaps. Everyone has their own opinions and everyone can change their opinion, yes that's true but guess what, people here just don't and can't. You know kid, I enjoy going on a pub under some, in my opinion, rather creative alias and frag some Elite two times in a row in a wannabe pro looking way. After that they open up their hearts for me and tell me their most deeply hidden secrets (or perhaps we should call it "the truth") since they think I'm some sort of pro. What's funny is that they say one thing in private but when I go on these forums they say something totally different. And people call me a troll. You know, I used to think our dear elites were a bunch of hypocrites but I've realized it might be something worse than that. I spoke (or wrote) out of own experience you see and I always consider other perspectives, unlike you who don't put anything of value into your posts. I don't wish to go offtopic here so I won't reply to anymore of these hilariously dumb posts which, I think, are supposed to be some sort of personal attack when they acctually just make me giggle. I'll end with telling you that you should shut your tiny little kid mouth until your brain is fully, or half, developed and then you can try to start an arguementation with me. Until then - au revoir
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#23
I once came across a map called "ac_filha_de_puta". It was a one-texture floor with skymap walls and clustered palm trees a cube apart from each other dotted on the corners.

Other than that, I'm willing to give any map a chance. Although official ones are my favourites <3
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#24
(27 Mar 12, 03:05PM)RealViking Wrote: I'll end with telling you that you should shut your tiny little kid mouth until your brain is fully, or half, developed and then you can try to start an arguementation with me.
User warned for cited insults.
/modmodeoff
Maybe you should think less highly of yourself, RealViking, that might make it easier to accept how other people have different opinions instead of insulting them and depicting them as some kind of remote apparatus of the damn "elite".

On topic, well, there are quite a few servers running good custom maps, although it is true that those aren't played much. But many people aren't just playing official maps either - what they're playing is CTF on douze, TOSOK on desert and that's pretty much it.
That said, I do think we should add some more maps to the official package (oh noes, it'll increase the download size!!!!111oneone). ExodusS, your maps aren't in not because they're not good enough, or not played frequently enough, or anything. There just (AFAIK) weren't any attempts to get new good maps into the package, that's all.
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#25
I believe i speak for the 'silent majority' when I say the pistol is overpowered
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#26
(27 Mar 12, 04:04PM)tempest Wrote: ExodusS, your maps aren't in not because they're not good enough, or not played frequently enough, or anything. There just (AFAIK) weren't any attempts to get new good maps into the package, that's all.

I didn't spoke about my maps but in all custom maps you can find on akimbo.

Or just because some devs don't give a fuck about maps?

Then i'll say something real but hard to accept, some official maps are BAD BAD BAD BAD and they have a BAD BAD BAD gameplay and they have BAD BAD BAD fairly bases and they fit BAD BAD BAD with the 1.1 gameplay and the detail level is BAD BAD BAD and they are official.
But:
Some customs maps on akimbo are GOOD GOOD GOOD (and far better) and they have a GOOD GOOD GOOD (and far better) gameplay and they have GOOD GOOD GOOD (and far better) and fair bases and they fit WELL WELL WELL (and far better) with the 1.1 and the detail level is TOO DAMN HIGH and they are not official.
So?

To resume:
-make something about bad official maps.
-more good official maps

Btw: sorry but ac_edifice should not be official imo. like arabian
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#27
(27 Mar 12, 04:04PM)tempest Wrote: ExodusS, your maps aren't in not because they're not good enough, or not played frequently enough, or anything. There just (AFAIK) weren't any attempts to get new good maps into the package, that's all.

Well, unfortunately that's pretty close to the truth.

Though, I wouldn't say there hadn't been no attempts, but it's pretty much like walking on eggs with adding maps to the official set. At the moment, given I have only little sparetime on hand myself, I couldn't even tell who was in charge in order to get this managed, not to speak who would be there to finally define/compile some sort of official standards. However, we may discuss this somewhere else...

Besides that, if the community (newbies, casuals, pros, whatever...) wouldn't ignore the rather regular custom maps so greatly, we probably could just pick out one by one, which happen to get played often. For years I see tons of suggestions, a lot of them I consider worth being added to the cart, but I hardly ever see those maps online.

In fact, I hoped the entire official map thingy would die out and the hosters/players would just set up servers with all those great works themselves. Keyword map packs... Sure, the restrictions have done their damage and I think those shouldn't be expanded any further, except for bug fixes, but that's not the full story. In my honest opinion people don't really like that much diversity as often claimed around here. Keyword grinding...

There are servers providing custom maps, but hardly anyone is playing there, except for shad's place where I happen to hang out myself quite often lately. If people indeed were so bored, why wouldn't they stop calling votes for the same stuff all the time, or stop hanging around on ladder servers exclusively, which have only limited maprots (for reasons I agree to btw). I'm afraid, any map added next will be nothing but another map ignored, for whatever reasons.

However, if the next release will take some more time to come, another map search offensive could be started.
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#28
* Nightmare becomes map picker dev.
:D


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#29
(27 Mar 12, 03:59PM)Vanqu!sh Wrote: Other than that, I'm willing to give any map a chance. Although official ones are my favourites <3

ac_turd ftw! :P
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#30
If I remember correctly ac_swamp was pretty dope, and looks like an official "quality" map to me.
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