To ban or not to ban...

[Stranz]

sorry to say jamz, but this wasn't the right move, nope i don't mean about give them a chance but making this problem public (even without calling names, if they are know for the community for sure they should be around these forums). you were one step further so they were clueless you knew about this cheats, you could have hold some time and see if was something more or just a random pointless private game "for fun" only.

I am just saying remain neutral until proven otherwise, either ask for opinion won't help as none knows exactly what happened, more when all evidence is on your hands. Not forgot to mention that if they are well aware you have an eye on them they will be more careful from now on.

Anyways you have made your decision already, this thread should be closed.

[samsattF]

The most thing I hate about this forum is thread closing (It's annoying and it make me crazy sometimes).
Let users discuss and give their opinions, or this forum will be useless.
They should be blacklisted because they used a modified client and they continued playing with it. Blacklist all the cheaters!

[Lantry]

I think that if it looks like they are cheating on a public server, but the proof isn't completely there, the private demos can be subpoenaed (if you will). If you are absolutely certain it is the same client, I don't see why you shouldn't. Of course, I don't know all the details about how exactly you got those demos, or any of the other details besides what I read here.

[Gibarix]

[V-Man]

I think the issue should have been discussed privately among mods and knowledgeable players, and more evidence collected. But since it's public,

It'd be worth banning if they simply downloaded cheats and used them; this makes the cheat-makers feel as though they are providing something people want.
However, I have to take issue with this:

the client should NOT be modified.

Being an open-source game, the client should be modified. There are commands built into the Deep Magic to accommodate for this. The problem occurs when a modified client is passed off as a normal client to connect to the Master Server, or is available for other, normal clients to connect to. That is why the protocol numbering exists -- to keep disparate clients apart, leveling the playing field.
So, if these people have modified the client and forgot to stick that minus sign on the protocol number, I say let them off with a warning and watch them carefully.
If they downloaded a cheat "just to see what it's like," then we should take measures to make sure they can't take that into a public server.

[Mr.OpTic]

awf with their heads.

[vonunov]

I see nothing wrong with playing around with cheats in private. Maybe you want to see what an aimbot feels like, or play a low-grav, high-speed game with friends, or generally just mess around.

If they're using the same clients in pubs and people are getting the "feeling" that they're cheating (not to say this is always to be trusted -- how many people get serverbans for "cheating" when they're just the best one there!) then that could be a problem. They should simply not use the same clients in pubs if they don't plan to cheat, of course. I think that's their burden, to switch clients.

I wouldn't recommend exposing the names unless you're absolutely certain they're cheating in public games, since people trust your word so much and many have such a knee-jerk reaction to "cheating" that these players may find themselves blacklisted from a lot of servers without good cause.

[OpenSource]

I see nothing wrong with playing around with cheats in private. Maybe you want to see what an aimbot feels like, or play a low-grav, high-speed game with friends, or generally just mess around.

So why dont they do this on a server connected to the master server?
Keep cheats OFF the master server!
Do the rest of us have to pay for the "testing" shit?

Ban the fuckers using cheats on the master server so the rest of us can play in fare games, private or public.

Cheats should never be tolerated on the master server - private or public, password protected or what ever. Ban them.

[vonunov]

I don't think it's so cut and dried. The reason that cheating is bad is because it gives you an unfair advantage over other players. If you're on a private server where everyone is using the cheats, that problem is moot. I think it was a bad idea for them to do it on a MS-connected server where it could be revealed, but I don't see how they did any harm.

[OpenSource]

The harm is THEY USED A CHEAT CLIENT.

You wanna cheat?
Do this fare away from the game and master server.

I feel the names and IPs of the cheaters in question here should be put out to the public.
Let server owners choose if they wanna have them on there server(s) or blacklist the IP - like we do with the rest.

As its now we all gonna question the performance of known players.

[samsattF]

I agree with DES|OpenSource

[Ronald_Reagan]

Since the server didn't report to the MS, ask the server owner what they want to happen. If it is a open server, cheating is allowed/not punished, then only use the proof from pubs. However, if the server owner says ban, then feel free to release the names and demos. I think the demos belong to the server owner, as the server made them.

About the players, if they are in clans (and wearing the tag during the demo), I would suggest contacting the clan leaders. I know as a leader I would want to be contacted if one of my members was using a cheat client. It may be ratting out, but being in the clan means that the players agree to certain rules while wearing the tag.

You have the proof that they used the clients in the MS. I would suggest a CBL. I think most knowledgable players would admit that your word is good enough proof.

There needs to be a distinction between servers on the MS, and servers off of the MS.

By being on the MS it seems like an implied rule that you cannot help/allow/reinforce cheating. See: http://forum.cubers.net/thread-3413.html

By being off of the MS, you dont have to follow those rules.

One more point to think about (although probably not relevant in the current case). It really depends on what they were doing with these cheats. If they were testing exploits and such, it would be ok. It is off the 1104 (even though there is only one) MS. Think about how Brahma tested his anticheat, of course he had to cheat. I too have tested an exploit. However this server I tested on was off the MS, and a B} server. I also reported the exploit after I was sure it was a viable problem. If they were cheating for fun and realizing it was off of the MS, it doesn't matter as much.

However you know these clients were used on servers.


If any of these players are members of my clan B}, I want to know. (Although I highly doubt that they are)

Edit: I was off about Brahma, he never cheated.

[Cemer]

Lol.

I had a friend who used cheats to see what they did. He used them privately with me and another friend. He deleted it immediately, and I know that he hasn't used them in pubs.

Why is everyone so harsh about this? I agree with Jack here. No advantage :P

jamz just wasn't sure about bl'ing them, and he needed some opinions. Unfortunately, he should have have guessed the outcome. Everyone here is really conservative, and is already towards banning.

[vonunov]

The harm is THEY USED A CHEAT CLIENT.

You wanna cheat?
Do this fare away from the game and master server.

I feel the names and IPs of the cheaters in question here should be put out to the public.
Let server owners choose if they wanna have them on there server(s) or blacklist the IP - like we do with the rest.

As its now we all gonna question the performance of known players.

This is exactly what I mean about the kneejerk reaction to cheating. OMGZ THEY USED A CHEAT CLIENT THEY'RE CHEATERS BURN THEM AT THE STAKE AND LET'S COMPLETELY IGNORE ANY OTHER FACTS OF THE MATTER

Do you know what a circular argument is? It's when you say things like "Using a cheat client is harmful because it's using a cheat client," and it means you fail miserably at debating. You have essentially said absolutely nothing.

[bballn45]

I would not ban. Maybe he was just curious about it. If it was just him being curious and everybody in the server was using them, I would say no blacklist. I mean if I were ever curious of a cheating client and how it works, I would most likely do it in a private match. Where else would they go to just be curious? If they used it in pubs different story but they didn't and if it didn't effect other players in any way possible than they shouldn't be blacklisted. Or possibly you should get their story. My point is, if they ever were to use it in a public server, someone would blacklist them. At least make the blacklist time shorter because they were nice about it and did it in a private lobby.

[V-Man]

I once tested an exploit while connected to the master server...

[Lantry]

Facts plz:
1) They have cheats installed on the client they use to connect to pubs

I'm absolutely certain they're using the same clients in public games

2) They appear to be cheating in the pubs, but it is not obvious enough to BL right away (or else Jamz would have done so).

and they are almost certainly still cheating (to a much lesser extent), but the public demos I have are nowhere near what the community at large would call proof.

Now, if we put one and two together, it looks very likely that they were using cheats on a public server, and should therefore be blacklisted. The public demos by themselves are iffy, and just having cheats installed is no crime. However, having these two facts next to each other creates strong (enough) evidence.
READ CAREFULLY: I don't believe they should be bl'd for using the cheats on a private server. However, I still believe that the demos from these private games can be used to prove that they have cheats installed on their clients, and when you combine this with the fact that they appear to be cheating in a public server, it is enough proof to blacklist.

[Stranz]

Nope

The doubt remains, if the question is whether cheat on private is blacklist worthy you don't need to ask for opinion. jamz's guess is if they do this always, otherwise he would have post this on the CBL already, they must be respected on community that he was careful enough to don't misstep on biased proofs and dirt their names in vain.

Detecting cheats from skill is a hard thing to do, but if your will was to know what truly was, it gonna be harder now.

[DES|Anderson]

I don't believe they should be bl'd for using the cheats on a private server. However, I still believe that the demos from these private games can be used to prove that they have cheats installed on their clients, and when you combine this with the fact that they appear to be cheating in a public server, it is enough proof to blacklist.

Makes alot of sense that does...

[Robtics]

I didnt care to read the last few posts on the 2nd page, excuse me please. I'll just say my opinion.

Cheating is stupid, I dont think winning with any unfair advantage is satisfying at all. Why would you play with cheats against cheats? Or experiment with cheats when you know you are not allowed ( I assume these players know very well what they were doing and how we usually handle cases of cheats in this community? ) to use them on public servers, in interclan matches, in clan matches ... in every match. You try things to learn, and nobody learns stuff to just have the knowledge right? You will want to use it...

Also, if I remember right, FaeL cheated in a private game too - which then got him blacklisted ... ( I am absolutely not sure anymore - correct me if I am wrong! )

I also assume they played on your servers jamz? Or how does it come you got the demos if you werent participating in those games ... I mean, you dont just go into a random match server and download the latest demos if you dont suspect anything beforehands ...

I think there should be somekind of punishment: make their names public and give them the opportunity to explain themselves - I dont see why they should apologize, they didnt harm anyone (unless, as you said too, they were/are using the client but a lot less obvious on pubs) besides breaking the most simple rule of any game :S DONT CHEAT!

[MykeGregory]

@V-Man
i meant to gain an advantage over other players.
but yeah, i understand what you mean.

[vonunov]

nobody learns stuff to just have the knowledge right?

Speak for yourself. I do stuff all the time "just to see if I can" or to gain a better knowledge of it even without any practical use.

[Benson]

I agree with Robtics.

Another point: I imagine that quite a lot guys read or will read this discussion as it is in an open forum. If we come to the result, that "cheating in private servers" is allowed, some others will try that too. And if you once tried it in private and know how to handle it... the jump to public isnt that far away.

- they used a cheat client while beeing connected to the master-server
- if I understand jamz right, not just one single kind of cheat (to check maybe out if another one is using this), but many different kinds. (aimbot, WH, everything)
- they are responsible for what they've done, so at least their identity should be made public and they should have the chance to explain their point of view
- As we all comdemn cheating a kind of punishment must be done (imo), as i said, to show the others that cheating in private is NOT okay.
If their story doesnt give us a completely other point of view on that case, a CBL could be made not for a whole year (i wouldnt put this on a level with cheating on a public server or match) but for some months.

[SeaTacMike|DES]

I've managed to play this game for 3 1/2 years without ever once
feeling the need to experiment in any way shape or form with a cheat client.
If you have cheating in your heart, you're a cheater and don't deserve
any benefit of doubt. I would ban them in a heartbeat and not care one
bit about how they feel. Their own actions have dictated how they should be
viewed and treated by our community.

[#M|A#Wolf]

Exactly what Benson said is what would bother me to let these guys get away.

If we come to the result, that "cheating in private servers" is allowed, some others will try that too. And if you once tried it in private and know how to handle it... the jump to public isnt that far away.

To be honest, the first mistake was making this issue public, since now any decision made will change how people think towards cheating. If they are not banned, people will think cheating in private servers is alright. I think the fact that they are using these cheats in this game just tells the devs that they don't care about their game and want to do whatever they want. And to be honest, I find it extremely ignorant for someone to say that they use cheats because they were curious, or they wanted to find out how it worked, etc. If you really wanted to find out how it worked and what it was like, all you had to do was go into Youtube and see for yourself the cheats posted there.

Just my opinion.

[jamz]

...you dont just go into a random match server and download the latest demos if you dont suspect anything beforehands ...

That's right, I don't. That way... lies madness.

...If we come to the result, that "cheating in private servers" is allowed, some others will try that too.

You must know that this would happen anyway? To simplify it, cheaters gonna cheat.

...To be honest, the first mistake was making this issue public, since now any decision made will change how people think towards cheating. If they are not banned, people will think cheating in private servers is alright...

But you don't say what the consequences of the other decision, banning, would be.

I've read all these comments with interest. I posted this because I knew cheat clients were being used in public and I wanted to stop it. In this particular case, I hope I have.
It's quiet clear from the varied responses that cheating in private is a grey area; I won't be making public any discoveries I make this way in the future.
There were three players involved: I've banned one (he has a previous obvious-cheat blacklisting and continued to use the client even after learning of this thread) and let the other two off since they stopped using it immediately. I'm not revealing who they are because the evidence isn't clear-cut. They know what they did wrong and if their 'friend' chooses to make their names public I'll consider that a small piece of justice.
Once again, in doing something new (for me), I've been a bit of an arsehole. I've learnt some things from this thread and would like to thank those who took the time to consider their responses. I'd like to thank those who voted the same way as I would privately too. <3

ps. The ban is on the assumption that you all trust me not to do so without good reason/evidence.

[V-Man]

Anything after that post will be hindsight.

[Brahma]

...Think about how Brahma tested his anticheat, of course he had to cheat....

No... I never cheated to test anticheats. But I was very tolerant to cheaters.
And I had the help of cheaters to code it. The major work over speedhack and aimbot was done with the help of connex. When we moved from 1.0 to 1.1, I begged to connex stop using cheats... but he didn't. So I cbl'ed him (or at least thought I did... but jamz fixed it).


EDIT: sorry for grave-digging a closed thread.

[Bukz]

Well it would be a bit hard to code an anti-cheat system without cheaters to test it. ;)

[Ronald_Reagan]

Btw, making sure I wasn't wrong when I spoke up. Sent off a PM to Brahma to clear it up.