Is this forum's moderation failing?

[DES|Boomhauer]

Well, I guess I can't get out of this so easily as to say "I won't be back for a good long while". Crem, you and I have been buds for a long time. And we have rarely if ever disagreed. So I want to say in all honesty, I agree with Lucas in this case. No, nothing should be done. Sometimes a quick post of a silly picture can let us ALL know we are being a little over-dramatic. It can help us all to calm down and see the lighter side of things. Or, (obviously) it can throw us into a white-knuckled banning frenzy. I see your point, but I don't think it applies here. You know, if this were a face to face conversation, it's quite possible we would have someone like Undead around. And he would be the one saying "Chill out guys" and possibly getting between some hotheads about to brawl over something silly.

[Zarjio]

The troll's posts are never an attempt to help people "chill out". They're always just trying to get people more agitated.
Yes, there are sometimes people who try to calm a debate (and I have been one of those people in the past), but there is a difference between posting a "chill out, guys", and a "ROFL HA HA FACEPALM".

As for completely ignoring your points, Boom:
No, I did not. I don't think your solution is possible. AFAIK there is no forum software available to allow the players to moderate. Might I add that you are not trying to find a middle ground, either. You will accept nothing short of player moderation (which, by the way, strangely enough, all of the moderators ARE players). I suggested that perhaps the process by which the moderators are selected could change, and you ignored that point.

Just because someone is not willing to compromise in a debate does not make their standing any less reasonable.

[PolarHedgehog]

Okay, okay, whatever, my 5 cents.
I think we should stop trying the find the cause for all this bullshit, and concentrate on finding the solution. So, i propose, lets close this thread which has apparently caused nothing but a bunch of bans, warnings and bad mood (or change title or summin) and start a new conversation about rules.
Yes, of course it would be much easier to just keep pointlessly blabbering about something which imo won't even provide anything useful even if you lads find a compromise.
But hey, thats just me.
So, because i'll get flamed that i've just fueled the trolling; i'll come up with some kind of base for the rules. This is me thinking out loud, no need to flame thx

For one, i think that the moderators need to get more defenitive instructions, because clearly there is a lot of partiality when moderating. ie. mods cant close a thread because they dont like it or because their (clan)mates dont like it. Like the nef and xu incident, if draul made the topic public, then he probably wanted to make the discussion public, and then someone closes the thread because it would bring bad light on their part.

Define trolling. Something that is generally offensive? Something which doesnt bring anything to the discussion? Something that tries to mislead the idea of the thread? You decide.

Some limit to arguing. From my experience, 1% of the arguments actually lead to some kind of conclusion. This is tough, because you have to decide when has the debate lost its constructiveness and turned into flaming.

This may be off topic, but hey, atleast theres no pictures of sloths, right?

[Stranz]

let the guy know he should think before post.

as owner of his words, need to see if what he is doing could offend the other that is involved in a discussion. we are all strangers here, the fact we are free to say anything we want to doesnt mean we can. some rules arent wrote in books, but we should know that our freedom ends where other person starts.

problem is the rules apply in all people, and we round from 8 to 50 years old people in this forum.

edit: regarding to the "pictures post examples".

[MorganKell]

"Well, cause the community is interested in beeing involved in everything - why not starting with writing down some simples rules rather than talking about. That's a lot better this accumulation of wounded vanities, cause-and-effect analyses and talking about personal qualifications."

I might not like ya, but at least I respect ya. In that sadistically nuerosexual way. :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to deal with Zarj's nonsense...

"This forum is not just being moderated by two main clans.
Besides the devs, the TyDers, and DESers, there is also a |BC| mod, an #M|A# mod, and a U| mod. As well, two of the devs are members of BCFH| and w00p|."

Sweetness. How about someone post a sticky thread listing all the mods and what clans they are from? This way people will know who they might be dealing with when posting. You can also edit it when new mods are added or old ones leave. This way I will have an idea of who is likely to ban me for what or agree with me on a random topic.

"Mod Edit: Stop deleting the fact that you got a warning for this post, or you will get more warning points, or maybe just be banned."

It is his post and he has a right to edit as he wants. Why don't you make a moderator log that is viewable to all as a subforum and post the replies / topics that get warned in there so everyone knows for what and why they got rocked. They would also then have the opportunity to edit THEIR posts as they see fit, if they have changed the opinion, or just wanted to acknowledge a different viewpoint, or just feel like saying something they think actually deserves the warning points. You'll still have the logs of why they were warned in that subforum :).

"Boomhauer, there is nothing more annoying than people posting a meaningless picture as an attempt to make a mockery out of something other people consider very important."

For you maybe, for other people maybe, but for the majority of us? Hmm... no not really. I don't know much about anything but I do know that when I see a meaningless picture I laugh, and SCROLL down. A lot of neat things can come from that simple flick of the mouse wheel. Like lo and behold! You see the rest of the thread?! OMGBBQWTF. Cool isn't it?

"Secondly, how exactly are "the people" supposed to choose who to ban, which topics to close, etc? If you are suggesting "anything goes", then why don't we just have hacks, spambots, or better yet, some XXX-rated material on this forum? On the other hand, if people get to vote on what is acceptable and what is not, then people will simply spend all day deciding who to try to get banned, and it will all come down to who hates who more, and things will be even more political than they are now.
No, we need "police" on this forum. Perhaps the methods for choosing those police ban be changed, but we will always need moderators."

1984 much? Yea your secret identity is Mr. George Orwell. Society doesn't need police. If I were really excited right now I'd post some old Dr. Dre vids and see how that goes down. However I don't like rap all that much so you will be spared. This forum needs mods. Any forum in their right mind would need mods. How you became one with your obviously right wing / neo hardcore conservative viewpoint has got me poor little mind all in a loop. Although I give you credit. Your mod-edit posts are really funny. That's the kind of mod-editing we need to see. Seriously. The only difference is that the Mods are not Police. You're bringing the whole negative connotation upon Mods with your "Police" remarks. You'd think instead of fighting the battle you'd take a page out of some ancient strategy guide, try Sun-Tzu or something, and win your enemy over by acknowledging their views, whether or not you agree with them, and then take them into your confidence. Show them (us) that you care, by consulting them on certain things. Ultimately you can still do whatever you want, but at least it would feel like you're actually trying to help people with their forum problems (whatever those may be).

In truth? I think I'd be the best friggin mod in the world. I am open-minded enough to wield a banhammer of death properly. I am also well skilled in accepting other points of view as well as acknowledging ones that I don't agree with. Odds are I'd use the aforementioned banhammer of awesomeness very rarely, and only in cases requiring extreme action, in order to raise the fear and respect of the Art of the BanHammer to an altogether unheard of height. When people know that they can say almost anything, that they have that option, rarely do they use it. It's the knowing that counts. However, this is all very unlikely to happen, because I don't contribute nearly enough by current standards to warrant even a cursory glance of consideration for a position like this. Too bad.

"The devs run the forum. If the players want to go and make their own forum, they can go ahead and do so. The players can also go ahead and make their own game if they like, too.
But since the devs created the game which led to the creation of this community, I would say they deserve to hold power here."

I like when you make sense. It's so few and far between that when it happens I cry a little inside. The devs made this game. The devs run the forum. Without this the players wouldn't be here. That is true. However, without the players, the devs would still be having LAN parties with a few of their friends and nothing more. We are dependent on each other for existence. So why not give and take? The players need to be taken care of as a whole. When a solid majority of players don't like something action should be taken. Vice versa. Give a little to get a little. Players believe they deserve consideration based on the fact that they play. They put so much of their time into getting good, therefore drawing in other people who hunger for competition, when there is so many other things they could be doing in this world. We like the devs. So stop using them as an argument of ownership. Just because you were chosen to be a mod does not mean you have blanket approval for your mod actions. Granted screaming dev rights at the top of your lungs every time something happens is a great way to shield yourself from any disciplinary action... not that you would deserve any, but I think you really should ease up on your overzealous stance. Whether or not you're right, you still end up looking wrong. It's called Public Relations / Human Resources. Might be a good thing to look into. I in particular don't like you mostly because of how you act on the forums. More often than not I have important stuff to say, and I go out of my way to acknowledge parts of posts I agree with, only to find you or someone else zero-ing in on one part of my posts and missing what I said as a whole. While that is alright at times, some people do write their posts not as separate thoughts, but as one flowing stream of consciousness. So it gets very annoying when this is done.

Yes I know, sorry Apollo. ^^

"Yes, you are. And by bringing Hitler into this, you invoke Goodwin's Law, meaning you automatically lose the debate."

I think I'll settle for calling you Stalin. Fits quite well for this "police state" you dream so much about.

[ElCrema]

I just wonder wonder how tolerant Undead and adam would be if ppl decided to go on oNe and KH forums and spamm and troll that crap out of them, like they constantly do it over here, ppl wouldn't last two posts (I also wonder how Luc@s takes trolling and spamm in MyS forum...), now if they ban and delete tolling from their own forums why should we find it funny hahaha they coming here to bury all the discussions with their crap? If they wanna post whatever the hell they want, they can use their forums, caus this one here is for AC related stuff, not teenage rebelion.

I'm all for ppl speaking their minds, you can disagree with everything I say, you can use harsh words, you can call me short minded or anything, if this is done within a forum discussion while we are actually debating a subject, you can rest assure that I would never delete your post or give you any warnings of any kind, but if all of the sudden you decide to just reply with crap pictures and ofensive nonsense, I'm not interested and I imagine that neither are anyone else here.

Now Boom, just take a look at this post here and tell me if this is something that should be tolerated?

[Luc@s]

[...]

Everything is said.

[MorganKell]

Actually Crema, |KH| forums are a safe haven for trolling and flaming. I don't care what Undead does over at oNe, but I've rarely banned anyone, xept Undead lololololol, for anything. Threads over here just happen to sputter out of gas after awhile and we usually move onto another topic soon enough.

As for the Undead and adam trolling, I just found out about it now, and while I am do believe that some trolling is necessary for shits and giggles, more often than not it's pointless. Like in the case of this thread. Good thread, silly trolls. When I troll I do it with style, technically I might not even be a troll by the standard sense of the word, but ey it's a shimmy.

However I'd like to slim down my above post to the couple things I thought would help our Forum Mods out.

1. Mod List :: I for one don't know who all the Mods are, only some of them. It would greatly ease my mind, and no doubt many others if we knew just who all the Mods are. The list can be edited as new Mods are added or old ones leave. I'd suggest adding their clan affiliation so that we know which clan is represented by who.

2. Mod Action Subforum :: This could be a place where you put all the Mod actions and add the reasons why things were warned. I'd appreciate knowing the reasons behind certain mod actions besides getting just a PM. Also if the posts and why they were warned are available for all to see it could serve as a potential detterent / warning in and of itself. Mod Actions would gain a much needed transparency that will ultimately benefit everyone.

[Zarjio]

MorganKell, I completely agree with you that a list of the moderators is needed, and that public access to knowing about what actions the moderators have taken would be very helpful.

I'm not advocating some sort of totalitarian police state here. If I were, this thread would be closed, and you, Drakas, and a number of other people would be banned for simply criticizing this forum's moderation. No, criticism is allowed and encouraged. However, such criticism needs to be done RESPECTFULLY and MEANINGFULLY, which is something some people are not capable of doing.
Case in point:
[08:00] =-= Mode #U| +v Morgan by ChanServ
[08:00] <Morgan> F*** D*** GO UNDEAD C*** B**** S*** W**** KICK ME U CANADIAN ASIAN KIKER F*** D*** S*** W****
[08:00] <--| Morgan has left #U|

Now, when was the last time any of the moderators where disrespectful, rude, or swore at someone? Sure, we get pissed, and I'm not defending every action of the moderators, but sometimes the banhammer needs to get dropped, because people are incapable of having a normal conversation.

[ElCrema]

You see Morgan my lad, you are the "serious troll" kida guy, you always say something on topic and that is (often :P) interesting to the debate and end it up with some funny trolololo shit, that my friend, does not bother me at all and tends do be quite funny.
But when I have to pass by 10 post of useless and sometimes offensive nonsense to get from one on topic post to another, well that's too much for moi. Maybe we should just open a "Trololo Land" thread on the off topic session and let the kids knock themselves of...

[Shorty]

Could you? Like seriously can you?

[MorganKell]

I am sorry Zarj, as far as I am concerned IRC and AC are two different things entirely. Sure we use IRC to talk with friends and set up matches but it's not and never will be AC. Therefore whatever I say over there has nothing to do with anything I say over here. However I will explain what I said in your chat since you so kindly decided to make a spectacle of it and post it on the AC Forums.

"[08:00] =-= Mode #U| +v Morgan by ChanServ
[08:00] <Morgan> F*** D*** GO UNDEAD C*** B**** S*** W**** KICK ME U CANADIAN ASIAN KIKER F*** D*** S*** W****
[08:00] <--| Morgan has left #U|"

I was simply throwing down for a couple of my homies, upon whom you so rudely whipped out your Ban Hammer of Justice. Not that they didn't deserve it, but being a topic about Forum Moderation you'd think you would have done it in a different way. Oh well. I believe I asked you to kick, and frankly wouldn't have been too surprised if you had banned me from the chat. I was expecting it. However you have decided to drag such a silly and stupid thing like that into this topic when a simple BAN FU MOGAN RAGE would have sufficed.

Tell me please, who is derailing this thread's topic now?

[Zarjio]

Firstly, you posted that in a PUBLIC channel. If you had sent it to me privately, I would not have re-posted it here, but you chose to make it public knowledge in the channel.

My reason for posting that is two fold: First of all, you said you wanted mods rights. Well, this forum and the IRC are not two different things entirely. I think it is expected that if you are going to be in charge on maintaining some amount of order and trying to keep the peace on this forum, then you should be trying to do the same outside of the forum, too. There are a variety of people who could probably do an excellent job (and quite possibly a better job than I do) as moderators, but they are also the same people who keep a clear head everywhere.

My second reason for posting that was to show an example of what I meant by criticism that was not respectful or meaningful. If that had been a post on this forum, you would certainly have been banned (at least for the time being. This whole "zero tolerance" policy is a very temporary thing, until some formal forum rules are established). People are constantly posting garbage like that on the forum. As you said, you expected to be banned from my channel. Well, posts like that get people banned on the forum.

[DES|Boomhauer]

Crema: No I don't think the post you quoted should be tolerated. I don't agree with everything adam and Undead post. But I do believe they were wronged in this particular case. I agree with Morgan. We would like to know who the moderators are. At least, I would. I also have been trying to stress that I understand my "For the People" post is basically a theory-only concept. But if the rules are set with this "theory" in mind, I feel things will come closer to being fair. I also think that the professional trolling should be left up to Morgan, along with a few others. There are people that are capable of making light of a situation without being offensive or annoying, and there are people who aren't. 99% of the AC community are the latter, IMO. So, I am not a moderator, so I can't say how much longer this thread should go on. But it seems to me it's time to wrap it up, so long as everyone feels they have gotten their 2 cents in, and move on to discussing the new forum guidelines in a fresh new thread. MMMMM.....love that new thread smell. ;)

[Shorty]

Seriously, you guys need to chill, i think morgan has said some very very good suggestions as well as everyone else in the topic, apart from the obvious trolls, can we please get the topic back to why we are here, and incase you can't remember, refer to page one (http://forum.cubers.net/thread-1024-page-1.html )

[MorganKell]

^^^

Zarj u need to get some booty.

[Brahma]

I am temporarily closing this thread.
Next week, we will re-open it.

[Shorty]

dude wat, are you serious?

[OpenSource]

http://forum.cubers.net/showteam.php

Edit: Ops, was closed. But i got the team link in.

[Zarjio]

Sorry OS, but that list of Mods is incomplete...
DogDancing, jiba, Mr.Floppy, noerrorsfound, TheCrema, and U|Zarj also need to be listed.