Weapon Balance and Gameplay Discussion

[Alien]

Shotgun is ok, it pwns in close range and it is correct, if you will predict moves of sg user, he has no chance, if he camps you have nades.

[Z-karIuS]

IMO, all weapons in the old version were ok, except AR (now it's ok, just a bit overpowered, more recoil would make a balance), and now nades are almost useless, at least, a nade gib should give 2 frags and leave the one nade/pickup system.

What the game needed, was better protection against cheaters and we got that tho, but it wasn't necessary to change the whole weapon balance.

Z

[wolfbr]

Wolf, we have to solve the current balance issues first.

At some time we thought about diffrent head damage for all guns, but that would be a too drastic change. AC is also supposed to be simple. Realism was never a big factor in AC.

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is supposed to be about the diffrences between the 1.0 and 1.1 balance, and the issues that came along with these changes, not a thread to propose radical changes, new features or new guns.

I do not think it would be a change so drastically, currently the shotgun can kill you with a shot from near(one shot kill), kills very fast, So what is the problem of killing the enemy with three shots to the head coming from an Assault rifle? the only difference is that you can kill fast with any weapon(not only shotgun, sniper and carbine).

[Elite]

smg:
The smg really needs a change on the spread and maybe a increased damage(15-17). You only make damage if the first shot hits and you shoot in bursts. You can´t frag anymore like in 1.0.4 , where you shot 15-20 bullets a row and made a little rest (for controlling the recoil) and shot again. Now you have to make 3-4 bursts, you lose to much time against AR and also vs shotgun.

AR:
Well, the AR have to get a bit more hard to control.At the moment you could also frag very easy with 15 bullets per magazine.More recoil i would suggest.

sniper:
You can still pwn, but more hard. Probably you should set back the damage to 85, otherwise vs a good AR, a headshot is the only way to win. It depends also on the map, but thats for all weapons now. You have to handle now 2 weapons to own on AC.

Carbine:
Its very fine if you have a unhasty hand, just make a little rest between every shot and aim again and you will hit. Its very effective on a middle-long distance.

shotgun:
Have too much power, increase the spread please.

Nade:
I agree with Zkarius, the new nade system is very fine, but set back the count of a nad gib to 2.

[V-Man]

I hereby officially threaten the entire AC community that if nades become worth 2 frags, I will nadespam the snot out of y'all. You will beg for nades to go back to one frag.

Might as well cut out the middle-man and just keep them at one frag. :-P

[ManInTheBox]

I'm agree with nades=1frag
but it would be good 2 nades per pick up
because nades was very effective to enter the enemy base and after that kill the enemies following you after take the flag, but now with 1 nade per pick up and much nade time re spawn, if the enemy team is full of campers its very difficult score.

Nade spammers is a problem yes, but:
reduce to 1 nade
+ more time respawn
+ less damage < (at least I feel it like this).

is a drastic change. imo.

[Z-karIuS]

nadespam is just part of the game as well as camping, people who complain about it are those who don't know how to handle nades.

[V-Man]

A huge part of teamwork is being able to tell your teammates, "grab the nearest nade pickup and meet me at the enemy base!"
I sincerely believe reducing nade pickups to 1 has increased the necessity of this teamwork when fighting campers. And teamwork is a good thing.
And yes, as Z said, camping and nade spamming are integral parts of the game.

[Ronald_Reagan]

I showed V-Man how to noob nade spamming today. I thought it was pretty ironic when I accidentally got him.

[V-Man]

I'm on your team, man!

[ManInTheBox]

"grab the nearest nade pickup and meet me at the enemy base!"
"I sincerely believe reducing nade pickups to 1 has increased the necessity of this teamwork when fighting campers. And teamwork is a good thing".

I like score system based in team work YES! but..

My game style is team work based.. if i lost the flag and someone drop it i ignore it (not mine anymore)

I really dont care about my score, if my team win then i win!.

but now, theres shufles in the last minutes of the games, so i think now is no a good idea drop.
to me its like I fight like hell and and at the end SHUFFLE and i lose.

Or enemy team raped me an in the last minute SHUFFLE and my team win.... thats not a win game!...

[MorganKell]

My opinion is that the grenades were altered based on the viewpoints of a small group of people who have neither the time nor desire to learn how to fight nade spam. They also have signally failed to recognize the true potential of grenades as a primary weapon. Being a grenadier is very fun. It adds a level of diversity to AC that increases the tactics, teamwork, and strategy exponentially. Knowing grenades are coming at you heightens your senses. It makes you get good by forcing you to dodge the flaming balls of death. That knowledge can then be taken and applied to dodging bullets. You get very very good at self-preservation. Now let's take a look at the other end of the spectrum. The grenadier is taking his life into his hands in what is an absolutely unbelievable amount of trust in one's skills and therefore a very lethal combination. Knowing that while you're cooking and aiming your grenade for that one perfect shot, which is required, you are being riddled with bullets is an exhilarating experience. Odds are you will die before you can get that shot off. And even if you do you'll be left too weak to immediately charge back into the fray. You must replenish. In the time it takes you to do that two or three kills may have gone by that you would normally have had if using a gun. Allowing two points per gib makes up for that. The grenadier is still getting the short of the stick to some degree, but the glory more than makes up for it. The visceral awesomeness of a grenade kill is worth every delicate and painful second one puts into learning and becoming a grenade king.

The new grenades takes away any desire to excel at such an underdog weapon. The abilities to cook them are limited, the range they can fly is smaller than a toddler's fastball, and their explosiveness has been practically annihilated. I've thrown grenades that blow up right at someone's feet and they keep on coming. How is that humanly possible? How is that even fun? The basic principle of a game is to be fun. Stripping grenades of everything that makes them great does just the opposite. It tears away an aspect of AC that many people found supremely exciting. I'd rather have 2 grenades that go BOOM, than 3 that serve as nothing more than doorstops. Grenadier is a profession that I have embraced whole heartedly since discovering it's awesomeness in .93. When 1.0 came to the fore I lamented only the slightly shortened range, but eventually saw that 1.0's nades were more realistic and a lot more fun. With 1.1's version of grenades I saw my profession denigrated to nothing. There is no longer any fun in playing as a grenadier. I can use an SMG like anyone else, but that 1-2 Punch Combo of grenades and an old-school shotgun is not there anymore. Imagine grenades as a primary weapon, and the shotgun for wetwork. That is true fun. However it's no longer feasible because the grenades are a fraction of their former self and the shotgun annihilates anything within a 50 mile radius.

[Skyra]

I strongly agree with MorganKell, the nades have been limited enough. Sure, a few spammers might get annoying once in a while, but in my opinion, campers are much worse. At least with nade spammers, they have to cook the grenades right or throw them in a predictive fashion. This actually takes thought, unlike camping, where all it takes is a click in the right direction. If any weapon should be limited any more, it should not be nades. As MorganKell pointed out, when your grenade blows up at someone's feet, it really pisses me off that they can just keep running.

Perhaps instead, although I so love the sniper, you should limit its fire rate slightly, just to make sure that people have it a little easier against campers. I know this probably won't be too popular either, but my point is that limiting the nades isn't doing much for anyone.

[Alien]

handling nades was major attribute which decided about winner in clan matches in 1.04, ac_shine was unplayable without nades, i think reduction nades was good step

[titiPT]

I support daKell too.

Btw, how about we add some damage to backstab? I don't mean a 1 hit kill, like TF has, but a slight increase on the damage..

[ketar]

I can't add nothing here that has not been said here and there. Nades fun has gone lost (MorganKell is - often - right!), the new smg is disappointing (yesterday I saw Serdar with the shotgun, and he was the one teaching me smg two years ago), the shottie is the choice for survival in pubs (sad choice).

But there is something important that I try to say to the devs: please consider the general results! Have a panoramic view, do not concentrate only on the single values of the weapon, but notice how at the end those changes affect the general result.

Some examples: go in a crowdy pub, then do not play, just listen. What do you hear?
Or, take a demo of the same game, take off the audio, and spectate movements of random players, noobs and pro.
Or again look only at the radarmap, and look at the movements on the ground of your team.
Compare all this to what was happening in 1.03, where people were complaining about the nade spam, yes, and idiot cheaters, yes. But I have never heard that there was something wrong in the FEEL of the game... What that feel was made of?

I'll say again something I already said: we can adapt to changes, but what at the end happens in the game - as a result of the sum of the adaptations of the singles - can be unpleasant. And even if the little single changes seemed an evolution of that single detail, the lack of a general view can generate a devolution, or a chaos.

Look at this on the other side: we can study very subtle changes but if we do not consider the impact and global results of those little adjustments, then we could fail.

It is not in the exact spread of the smg. But maybe it is in how changing that value affects other aspects. If I need to jump here and there because I need to shoot in bursts with my smg and I need more time, then you'll have someone making strange movements on the map...

or if many players are forced to use the shottie, then you'll have a lot of those medieval duel with the two desperados running many times one against the other, jumping and trying to hit the enemy. Once in a game it's fun, but spending the whole game doin'it isn't.

[castiel]

Agree.

[#M|A#Wolf]

For the shotgun... what about a full body shot damaging a 75% from you, plus, pushing you back a few cubes. Besides that maybe as well make the reloading time of the shotgun a few milliseconds longer so the damaged player can have at least 1 second to make a comeback.

[Gibstick]

Full body shot should still kill with shotgun, no?

[#M|A#Wolf]

I just hate being killed by noobs in the most stupid ways, but hey, that's just me x)

[jAcKRoCk*]

Maybe just increase the spread of the pellets?, if we so that the shotgun wont be as powerfull at midrange but you can still have some advantange on a short range.
Now lets go with nades, i feel that the one nade pickup it's awsome because now you think twice before you waste a nade now it's more like a back up weapon than a main one ( like it used to be for me xD) but now i love the way i can use the nades to clean a base of campers or to leave it like a personal mine on the floor, more tactics but still the nades feel weak??

[JMM]

I really like the idea of some 75-90 damage with the shotty and slightly more spread (not as much 1.0) + pushback, but I do think it needs to be more than "a few cubes". I was thinking something like ~15 cubes if you do full damage.

[#M|A#Wolf]

~15 cubes?! I dare ya an ac_mines shotty match with that thang.

[castiel]

Why was the Shotgun actually changed from 1.0 to 1.1? A good shotgun user e.g milltertime, iOD|Punisher would still take you out at a glance from close range, keep them at a distance and you'd be able to effectivly take them down, I don't see a problem with that?

I'm happy for them to be able to kill us from a close proximity with one shot, but when you use tatics(what the devs seem to want) and move back to decrease the shotgunner's and it doesn't prevent them killing you with 1-3 shots, it's very annoying.

[Darkbee]

I think the shotgun should be less effective at range. Right now you can charge someone down who is using an SMG, getting peppered the whole way, firing off a couple of shots of your own. By the time you reach them you're almost dead but survive long enough to splatter them. I don't think that should happen.

BTW, I think it's been mentioned on the forums before but I think the psychological element of being able to splatter players, plays a huge role in perceptions of the shotgun. Still, for me there is no question that it's over powered, but I think that the overpowermant occurs at mid ranges. Doesn't make sense to me for it to be so effective at distance.

[Atrimos]

I've been playing this new AC 1.1 version since it came out including all the updates, in my opinion the weapons are unbalanced, more unbalanced than in the previous version.

Assault Rifle looks overpowered, Shotgun and Carabine a little overpowered too since the maps in AC normally are littles ( can you imagine playing in a 12/12 server and 70% of the players using shotguns and carabines? ), its possible bringback the old 1.0 style to smg and sniper?

[Vermi]

I've been playing this new AC 1.1 version since it came out including all the updates, in my opinion the weapons are unbalanced, more unbalanced than in the previous version.

Assault Rifle looks overpowered, Shotgun and Carabine a little overpowered too since the maps in AC normally are littles ( can you imagine playing in a 12/12 server and 70% of the players using shotguns and carabines? ), its possible bringback the old 1.0 style to smg and sniper?

The old smg and sniper "style" would be nice. but lets not return to 1.0.4 where the majority of people did not use the AR/shotgun in clan matches. we need to find a perfect balance, im over my trolling stage and im just here to give my opinion on what needs changing

AR Needs a rework or the smg/sniper needs to be made as good
Maybe instead of changing the sniper back to 1.0.4 damage, time between shots could be reduced

[MorganKell]

I've been playing this new AC 1.1 version since it came out including all the updates, in my opinion the weapons are unbalanced, more unbalanced than in the previous version.

Assault Rifle looks overpowered, Shotgun and Carabine a little overpowered too since the maps in AC normally are littles ( can you imagine playing in a 12/12 server and 70% of the players using shotguns and carabines? ), its possible bringback the old 1.0 style to smg and sniper?

The old smg and sniper "style" would be nice. but lets not return to 1.0.4 where the majority of people did not use the AR/shotgun in clan matches. we need to find a perfect balance, im over my trolling stage and im just here to give my opinion on what needs changing

AR Needs a rework or the smg/sniper needs to be made as good
Maybe instead of changing the sniper back to 1.0.4 damage, time between shots could be reduced

Let's return to 1.0.4 where the majority of people who wanted to play shotgun and AR were required to actually TRY. The shotgun and the AR are awesome weapons, not used in 1.0 clan matches because shimmies can't seem to bother to actually learn how to use them CORRECTLY.

They offer just the right balance of "Bang 4 Ur Buck". Shorter range and a smaller clip are easily forgiven by the power that each have.

[Atrimos]

Ummm im trying to get the best of 1.0 and 1.1 in one version because the 2 versions have good things, the idea in this new version was "balanced weapons" but now i just see guys using Assault Rifle (AR), if the weapon are balanced, why the people is using AR and not smg?

The idea should be that all the people feel comfortable to play with any weapon, but this not happening. When i play Clan fight i cant use the smg (my favorite weapon) cause i will be beaten easily (less powered, then i have to use the AR), my second favorite weapon "Sniper" i cant use cause when i hit in my enemy 1 sniper shot + 2, 3 or 4 pistol shots the guy dont die xD...So, how many bullets I need to kill a player who is using armor 100/75?

Then we have now 2 weapons with less power and 3 awesome weapons, meanwhile I'll keep playing with the AR.

Its possible make a "mix of both versions"? (im talking about weapons obviously)

Im asking that cause i dont know nothing about code and i respect the work of the devs.

---

another thing and very important,

overpowering weapons you just acquires players who dont need to practice nothing because the gun does everything that you should do with intelligence, tactic and experience, its simple, all in our lives need practice to be better everyday, if not, no have sense.

[jAcKRoCk*]

* jAcKRoCk* stands up and burst into tears with Atrimos words

I kinda have the same idea than Atrimos has but i have played with AR a bit and just now i notice how powerfull it is (if used proper) i think we need to go back to the days when you really needed to train hours and hours to master a weapon.