More official maps, or less official maps?

[Cemer]

Seeing as you brought up other games, I have personally not played one that has a competitive aspect that does not foster fairness both in balance and map choice. Maybe you could enlighten me about these points.

doesnt quake 3 have symmetrical ctf maps?

forgive me if i am wrong

[RAMPAGE]

I can organize my clan to vote for map selection we think should be played and also name one representative for our clan, but I think it would be easier to name not more than 10 community representatives (that play both pubs and matches) to work on the clan matches map set and give them authority to decide for the community.
One of the names that come to my mind that would be great for the job is Benson :) (although Lordz, Undead, Shieldy, Fundog and others could be part of that team)

Offtopic:
<3 Vi-Rocking-Man

[Takkunen]

Why not season the map pool?
Pros
-Allows for more variety in small amounts. (eg. 8 maps per season, 5-6 would be changed keeping the 2-3 most popular for next season.)
- Allow for more map testing
- Inspire more people to make maps in order to get onto the map pool.

Cons
- Potentially imbalanced/broken maps to be in the map pool for a season (although, it can just be ignored by the players choice)
- Deciding which maps to be used and what defines it 'balanced'
- More work administrating. (eg. choosing map pools, taking critisim and applying it to the next seasons map pool.)

Then there is the side of creating a "season"

there's other points to be made about this idea but im to tired to really think it through.

[V-Man]

I can organize my clan to vote for map selection we think should be played and also name one representative for our clan, but I think it would be easier to name not more than 10 community representatives (that play both pubs and matches) to work on the clan matches map set and give them authority to decide for the community.

I can't imagine feeling good about any fewer than 15 clans agreeing on such an authoritative decision. I can name 20 clans that I've personally seen significant involvement from in the past six months.

On the other hand, if three clans posit their voice into one single person, that counts as three clans to me and could end up matching your proposal of about ten representatives.

If you really think it'll work, and the devs feel okay with it, I'll organize it. As I said before, if everyone can agree on something, whether some final conclusion or even just the rules of this exercise, I'll support it. But let me be clear that I do not want to have a simple majority stepping on the toes of a significant minority (an example of an insignificant minority would be generic CoD fanboy in the corner shouting to replace all maps with *insert copyright infringement here*). I want a clear consensus that comes just short of stealing the thunder of Wikipedia's odd democratic style.

---

-Allows for more variety in small amounts. (eg. 8 maps per season, 5-6 would be changed keeping the 2-3 most popular for next season.)
- Allow for more map testing
- Inspire more people to make maps in order to get onto the map pool.
...
Then there is the side of creating a "season"

This is a nice idea, perhaps as a more frequent and active implementation of the map pack system.

[Oracle]

Takk has a nice idea, but I feel that it assumes that AC has more activity than it actually does... :s

I personally think Gramps' idea could work out well, especially if it's all the major clans.

[Undead]

this thread is hilarious lol.
excessive discussion in this format gets nothing done besides make everyone feel good about themselves.
with all these ridiculous bureaucratic solutions we'll see it done in 2015.

Official maps should not be overly concerned with map balance.

More is worse, then you have to learn more maps.

lies... Keller is one of my best maps in matches

naaah, it is not about quality but about creativity,

There is a certain amount of talk about biased maps, but really, none are that biased if you practice them enough.

great discussion as always guys.

[Roflcopter]

I agree, we don't need more bureaucracy. We need some people making decisions.

[V-Man]

I agree, we don't need more bureaucracy. We need some people making decisions.

You have got people making decisions. I decide that we need to organize the thoughts of this community without/before rushing headlong into unilateral actions.

[Ronald_Reagan]

I agree, we don't need more bureaucracy. We need some people making decisions.

Truth.

[Roflcopter]

You have got people making decisions. I decide that we need to organize the thoughts of this community without/before rushing headlong into unilateral actions.

But if that's so, I think you're essentially making this a design by committee.

[Oracle]

Lol.
Let's just make a bloody poll for each map proposed.

[V-Man]

Naysayers gonna say nay.

Bottom line is what I have already said.

if out of the 46 total active clans listed in the wiki you can get as many as 20 to solidly agree on something, I will accept it as AC canon.

[Undead]

You have got people making decisions. I decide that we need to organize the thoughts of this community without/before rushing headlong into unilateral actions.

you probably shouldn't be making decisions if you're basing them 100% off the community's input. delegate the power to someone else if you aren't capable of it. the community exists in this scenario to add suggestions and give input, not to make the game into the average of what the community as a whole wants.
i'm just really concerned with this thread, because we're going to see a less than optimal solution if every person's thoughts are recognized as equal. not everyone understands the problem completely(i'd argue most don't), so therefore those people can't derive a solution. that isn't to say their opinion is worth 0, it is just that they shouldn't be the ones making the decisions.

I think you're essentially making this a design by committee.

[V-Man]

Re-read the proposal and you'll see it's not 100% community input. It's
1) those who care
2) those who contribute
3) those who know enough to contribute effectively (and this directly negates any pejorative "design by committee" accusations brought up)
Further, having some group suddenly pop up isn't of itself some final decision, which is how you're treating the situation.

Try it out. You might like it.

[Undead]

3) those who know enough to contribute effectively

it really isn't

[Oracle]

How did the devs use to add maps to the official pack?
Just do that, but more...

[Roflcopter]

3) those who know enough to contribute effectively (and this directly negates any pejorative "design by committee" accusations brought up)

No it doesn't "negate" an accusation of design by committee (I guess you're not familiar with the term). The committee can be very competent but still exhibit the same issues.

The defining characteristics [...] are needless complexity [check], internal inconsistency [check], logical flaws [check], banality [check], and the lack of a unifying vision [check].

The same goes for AC in general, not just the map selection.

[Zarjio]

I think that we should all complain about the devs asking for community input! Enough of that! Stop it! Make unilateral decisions and never consult anyone! The AC community likes that much better!
/sarcasm

Seriously, what Shad proposed is not a terrible idea - why not set up some sort of poll for existing maps, and allow people to nominate new maps? Obviously this wouldn't be something the devs would have to stick with, but it would be a good indicator of what the community wants.

[Oracle]

Woot. Thanks Zarjio.
Though if we do my idea, there'd be quite a lot of polls O.o.
Might need a "map proposition" subforum in the mapping/modding or Dev blog forum...

[Roflcopter]

Right, let's put a hold on fixing it so we can complain about it a bit more ok

No one is suggesting any such thing.

I think that we should all complain about the devs asking for community input! Enough of that! Stop it! Make unilateral decisions and never consult anyone! The AC community likes that much better!
/sarcasm

I assume that's a sarcastic take on my comments above? In which case all you've done is construct a straw man. There's nothing that I have said that could be read as suggesting the developers don't take on board community opinion.

[V-Man]

I agree, we don't need more bureaucracy. We need some people making decisions.

You have got people making decisions. I decide that we need to organize the thoughts of this community without/before rushing headlong into unilateral actions.

But if that's so, I think you're essentially making this a design by committee.

3) those who know enough to contribute effectively (and this directly negates any pejorative "design by committee" accusations brought up)

No it doesn't "negate" an accusation of design by committee (I guess you're not familiar with the term). The committee can be very competent but still exhibit the same issues.

The defining characteristics [...] are needless complexity [check], internal inconsistency [check], logical flaws [check], banality [check], and the lack of a unifying vision [check].

The same goes for AC in general, not just the map selection.

Right, let's put a hold on fixing it so we can complain about it a bit more ok

No one is suggesting any such thing.

I think that we should all complain about the devs asking for community input! Enough of that! Stop it! Make unilateral decisions and never consult anyone! The AC community likes that much better!
/sarcasm

I assume that's a sarcastic take on my comments above? In which case all you've done is construct a straw man. There's nothing that I have said that could be read as suggesting the developers don't take on board community opinion.

Which of these posts have proposed any sort of solution to explore? This is all nothing more than attempts to point "things is bad" and then sit and look at how bad it is.

I regret mentioning Wikipedia at all, because I am absolutely not interested in trying to make a contest out of pointing out which logical fallacies we're all using here (and it's apparently a very popular pastime over there).

From now on, any post that is pessimistic, or pointlessly negative, or offers no productive proposition, will be deleted and probably earn warning points. Give me solutions or take your weeping to someone who likes drinking tears.

[#M|A#Wolf]

I say make the devs create a 2 polls in SurveyMonkey or whatever. One is the current official maps and for them to select which ones they want to keep seeing in the pack for 1.1.1. Then the other poll is a list of custom maps that have been most talked about by people, and for people to choose which ones they want to see in the official pack.

I'd have to go with what Undead said up there, we can't afford letting anyone just choose AC's future map pack if they aren't experienced enough in the subject. Someone could find this forum through Google by accident, stumble into the poll and vote on something he doesn't know. So make a forum group of people that we fully trust and take their opinion fully in the way that we know they are making the best decision for the game, because they know what they're doing.

It's nice we're trying to get some sort of fair democracy where everyone gets a say, but not everyone should be getting a voice (b/c of lack of experience, not known by the community, not a trusted member because of a poor past, etc) on how this game is getting run. I know my idea has some flaws, but I hope it's at least it's a good base to start with.

[Zarjio]

The maps chosen by the community are not absolute, they are just suggestions coming from the community for the devs to consider. If 80% of the community votes to see douze removed, then it should probably be removed. If 90% of the community wants ac_village added, then I imagine that it would be added.

None of the discussion here in this forums has any real power - it is ultimately up to the developers to decide what they want to do. We are just providing suggestions and feedback.

[Oracle]

As I had mentioned before, just do a poll per map in a specific map proposition subforum. Makes things simpler.

[MorganKell]

[offtopic]
KH - Yes, we see Morgan actively ranting here on the forums, as well as his lackeys failure, Habluka and Bullpup, but have you actually seen them in-game? I've seen maybe failure a few times, but the rest little to none.

Really? How much have you been playing AC? Ask around, failure and I have been on a lot lately. Bullpup and I have been trying to connect, while Habs has found himself better games, in his opinion, to play. I take issue with your designating my mates as lackeys. I prefer vassals. Vassals of Kellhalla.

As for the issue of maps and their playability, I've been doing that long before you were wearing big boy pants. So don't question my knowledge and or experience when it comes to whats fun, competitive and worth playing and what's not.

Oh and if you're maaaaad you could always join |KH| sweetums sourpuss, I do have a spot or two open. :).

[Oracle]

Hahahahahaha true, apologies mister MK ;D.
Ahh vassals. Great word \:D.

[Nightmare]

CM

ac_village
ac_venganza
ac_africa
ac_zanka

PUB

ac_petrol
ac_box_factory
ac_iceroad's reworking. Details might not be complete yet?

All I got coming out of every 1.1 map on akimbo

[Aight]

I can organize my clan to vote for map selection we think should be played and also name one representative for our clan, but I think it would be easier to name not more than 10 community representatives (that play both pubs and matches) to work on the clan matches map set and give them authority to decide for the community.

I think this could work. 10 players of the big clans should be picked like (only an example): Harrek, Benson, Vanquish, Undead, Rampage, fundog, Elite, Wolf and maybe 2 others like jamz and bouke.

The person in charge (V-Man?) tells each one of them to list up to 10 maps they'd like to see getting official. He collects and structures the feedback and keeps the most mentioned maps. This list will be pm'd to each trusted player and they vote which maps they want to have added (F1/F2). They pm their result back to the mod (each one of them, anonymous vote). There should be a certain percentage at which a map is getting into the package (like 7/10 votes). The results get publicly posted but in the end it's ofc the dev's decision if they actually make it or not.

This is by no means perfect and you might think some clans can't voice their opinion like that but the trusted players shouldn't speak for their own clan anyway. It should be a decision based on personal experience and feeling without any kind of pressure. Of course those "trusted payers" could secretly aggree on something etc. It would be up to them to make an honest decision for the development of the game.

[Cemer]

10 players of the big clans should be picked

i think the community should vote for 3-5 of these players

aights post gels with undeads comment

the community exists in this scenario to add suggestions and give input, not to make the game into the average of what the community as a whole wants.

on another note

why are symmetrical maps not encouraged? is it more fun to play on an asymmetric map? i think having a really well designed symmetrical map would be fun to play on

[Oracle]

F2 if alexandree, CastrO, TopGun AND myself are not on that list.

Unnecessary post is unnecessary. Come now, important discussions are at hand (lol).

why are symmetrical maps not encouraged? is it more fun to play on an asymmetric map? i think having a really well designed symmetrical map would be fun to play on

Douze.
Pro: Popular map - more people, yay!
Con: Frowned upon by "pros" as ruining gameplay (not like they can simply choose to not play it).
Decisions, decisions.


Zanka for official.