More official maps, or less official maps?

[YourSister]

add ac_shortway

[Minty]

I'm all for more quality official maps.

[jamz]

To settle which maps should be taken out, jamzy, how about you some way track what servers are playing what map, and list those results in 1-3 weeks. :D

I can't, because the MS doesn't track this; it's just a list of servers. Anyone (with a bit of coding skill; not me) can monitor the maps just by polling the gameservers' info ports at regular intervals.

...maybe even a custom map CTF tournament...

I've been crying out for skilled clans to test the most well-known custom maps in serious gameplay, in order to highlight the best, decry the worst, or suggest changes to the creators. I must have first posted this idea about three years ago, and I can't have been the first.
I took the plunge when I added ac_avenue to the SVN trunk (with the help of Mr Bukz), because I'd never seen a highly skilled player complain about its gameplay.

[Minty]

It's been a while since I've played -- has there ever been discussion of mapping competitions? I think it would be great to have one every 6 months or so, and possibly choose the best map from the lot as an official map for the next release.

[blueberry]

. . . has there ever been discussion of mapping competitions?

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-5470.html

[Xenon]

I've been crying out for skilled clans to test the most well-known custom maps in serious gameplay, in order to highlight the best, decry the worst, or suggest changes to the creators. I must have first posted this idea about three years ago, and I can't have been the first. I took the plunge when I added ac_avenue to the SVN trunk (with the help of Mr Bukz), because I'd never seen a highly skilled player complain about its gameplay.

We have tried avenue and venganza tonight and I'd put both of them in the next version for sure.

[Vanquish]

I've been crying out for skilled clans to test the most well-known custom maps in serious gameplay, in order to highlight the best, decry the worst, or suggest changes to the creators. I must have first posted this idea about three years ago, and I can't have been the first. I took the plunge when I added ac_avenue to the SVN trunk (with the help of Mr Bukz), because I'd never seen a highly skilled player complain about its gameplay.

We have tried avenue and venganza tonight and I'd put both of them in the next version for sure.

+1, both maps were great fun to play on.

[Oracle]

. . . has there ever been discussion of mapping competitions?

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-5470.html

'Cept the winners don't become official <_<.

[Minty]

. . . has there ever been discussion of mapping competitions?

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-5470.html

'Cept the winners don't become official <_<.

Dang, ah well. At least the competitions exist in the first place. :)

I think making the best map an official one would be a great incentive for the more talented/motivated mappers in this community to give it all they've got, though, and churn out some absolutely superb maps. Might be an idea worth thinking about for those involved.

[Oracle]

Yeah, it's nice that they exist but...

This contest has no motivation, even I would learn how to map if I had a reward such as having maps in the new version etc etc.

[evanzo23]

More is better! Don't remove anything.

Agreed!

And for those that think that we should remove some maps for things such as the fps being slower, I can see that is a problem for you, but technology is really only getter faster, so I would say that you can just decide to not play a map that is slower on your computer (ie rattrap).

[V-Man]

...
'Cept the winners don't become official <_<.

Dang, ah well. At least the competitions exist in the first place. :)

I think making the best map an official one would be a great incentive for the more talented/motivated mappers in this community to give it all they've got, though, and churn out some absolutely superb maps. Might be an idea worth thinking about for those involved.

I'm V-Man, and I support this comment.

If I were more map-savvy, I'd be doing more about it. As it is, devs could discuss this idea a bit.

[bballn45]

More is worse, then you have to learn more maps. The maps we have now is a great number of maps to have. I think you should just remove the maps that nobody plays and add some decent maps. We need some more fair maps like sunset and others. We don't need any more aqueous, arid, and other maps that are super unfair on some sides.

[Zarjio]

2 cents:

Please remove douze. It's entirely overplayed and is destroying pubs.

Please add a WHOLE BUNCH more maps. There are dozens of excellent maps out there that would greatly add to player's enjoyment of the game if they were official. The more official maps that there are, the less of @camper and megatowers we will see (not necessarily a whole lot less, but at least somewhat less).
Some suggestions:
ac_village
ac_ore
ac_edifice
ac_culvert
ac_africa
ac_avenue

Lastly, a comment on map 'fairness':
Official maps should not be overly concerned with map balance. They should look good, be fun to play on, and be balanced enough that they are not a complete slaughter. If people are concerned about balance for cms and competitive play, then they should place some restrictions on the maps that are selected for cms, or else find some other way to make the competitive side of AC more fair. After all, in most games in which major competitive leagues exist, these leagues have their own modified versions of common maps (which are considered more balanced).

[Waffles]

That'd be all well and good if 1) we could actually revise other people's maps 2)we could convince everyone to play them. Really it becomes an argument of personal biases. If the official package didn't need revision, there would be no need to do any of these things. I guess i'm unclear on why the competitive scene is not encouraged. Seeing as you brought up other games, I have personally not played one that has a competitive aspect that does not foster fairness both in balance and map choice. Maybe you could enlighten me about these points.

[Jesse]

2 cents:

I just think we should keep ac the way that it is, to be honest i have had every single map picked against me in a 1 v 1 throughout my year of ac, and learning more official maps would just cause more clans to rage about picks, which already happens enough, so i think we should leave it as is.
/end 2 cents

[V-Man]

Not my idea, but I keep thinking this solves the problem of "unfair" maps without having to revise them:

Clan A vs. Clan B:
Clan A picks map/mode A
They play map/mode A, |A| on CLA and B} on RVSF.
They then play map/mode A, B} on CLA and |A| on RVSF.
Then
Clan B picks map/mode B
They play map/mode B, |A| on CLA and B} on RVSF.
They then play map/mode B, B} on CLA and |A| on RVSF.

Other than being the equivalent length of two clan matches (and that is definitely fixable), how is this not a complete solution?

[failure]

....Clan Match Mode stuff...
Other than being the equivalent length of two clan matches (and that is definitely fixable), how is this not a complete solution?

Upfront: I don't really care, I don't mind the way clan matches work now.
(I tried to make a long reasoned argument, but it wasn't coming out right)

The simplest way to put it is: The team with the initial advantage has the greatest advantage.

There's no way to really balance the game in the way that is being discussed. Certain people suck on certain maps no matter the side they are on, and beast on other maps no matter the side they are on. Switching sides may give more balance, but not nearly as much as one would think.

[Waffles]

It is. As it stands now, it's hard enough to have the time for one complete match. Maybe reducing the time and having an automatic switch. So 7:30 per side, brief intermission to let players adjust to different sides with paused time. Has this been hardcoded yet? I remember seeing something about it, but haven't heard any feedback about it.

[V-Man]

Certain people suck on certain maps no matter the side they are on, and beast on other maps no matter the side they are on. Switching sides may give more balance, but not nearly as much as one would think.

So it's more an issue of the player than the map I suppose.

---

So 7:30 per side, brief intermission to let players adjust to different sides with paused time. Has this been hardcoded yet?

Oh buddy, it's about to be.

[failure]

So it's more an issue of the player than the map I suppose.

On some maps with some players, yes.
Where that doesn't apply, the "initial advantage" point would.

[Zarjio]

Seeing as you brought up other games, I have personally not played one that has a competitive aspect that does not foster fairness both in balance and map choice. Maybe you could enlighten me about these points.

In Halo: Reach, MLG (Major League Gaming) has their own versions of some maps. There is also 'The Arena' in the game (which is the official Halo ranked playlist), but I think the really hardcore guys play MLG.

As well, what V-Man said is a good point. When we do really important competitive matches, like ACWC, both teams play both sides of the map.

[RAMPAGE]

Remove the unfun ones and add some nice new ones. It's not about the number really, just the quality.

I'd remove ac_snow (very biased, rather ugly), ac_rattrap (very biased), ac_aqueous (very biased), ac_toxic (biased but decent for 1v1, rarely played), ac_keller (boring, rarely played).
I'd remove the flag poles from ac_arid (very biased but good for 1v1s).

For each of these maps there's a better map not currently included.

ac_toxic is for tdm on pubs, it's the map that made me love the game
ac_arid can be played in any mode, and it's fast and FUN :)

All the others i would also remove, if anyone asked me ;)
Someone long time ago suggested to separate maps in two categories (maps for pubs and matching maps). The separation shouldn't be rigid and most of the match maps should be allowed for pubs also. Script could do that job for us.
error: ctf ac_aqueous not available for matches, pick something else XD

[Xenon]

Theirs only 5 maps which should not be playable in matches:
snow
arid
douze
rattrap
toxic

All others have bias but are STILL playable.

[V-Man]

Someone long time ago suggested to separate maps in two categories (maps for pubs and matching maps). The separation shouldn't be rigid and most of the match maps should be allowed for pubs also. Script could do that job for us.
error: ctf ac_aqueous not available for matches, pick something else XD

While a highly subjective and potentially controversial method of sorting the maps, your local clan scripter should have no problem crafting something that expresses your own clan's ideals of which maps are appropriate for matches and which are appropriate for pubs.

[RAMPAGE]

Someone long time ago suggested to separate maps in two categories (maps for pubs and matching maps). The separation shouldn't be rigid and most of the match maps should be allowed for pubs also. Script could do that job for us.
error: ctf ac_aqueous not available for matches, pick something else XD

While a highly subjective and potentially controversial method of sorting the maps, your local clan scripter should have no problem crafting something that expresses your own clan's ideals of which maps are appropriate for matches and which are appropriate for pubs.

The script hasn't been made yet, nor me nor clan i am part of has any intention of imposing upon others our ideals and such. Imho it should be something developers should think about if they wanna make some changes instead of verbal slapping (like in this case) of anyone that suggests anything new or massager like me. All experienced players that play matches in the form that is generally accepted by the community would agree that there are some maps that are just not good enough for clan matches. But, instead of hearing the needs, we are suggested to change the form of matches. Well, thank you very much. Over and out.

[V-Man]

The script hasn't been made yet, nor me nor clan i am part of has any intention of imposing upon others our ideals and such.

I feel much the same way, too.

Imho it should be something developers should think about if they wanna make some changes instead of verbal slapping (like in this case) of anyone that suggests anything new or massager like me.

Not sure where any verbal slapping or massages have occurred. Could you clarify?

But, instead of hearing the needs, we are suggested to change the form of matches. Well, thank you very much. Over and out.

I hear the needs. The need here is to encourage fairness using the maps played in matches. Your proposition is to separate "match" maps (mostly fair) from "non-match" maps (mostly unfair or biased), to make it easier for matches to use "fair" maps.

However, (and this is the deeper problem) nobody agrees on which maps are "fair" or "unfair," so there is no agreement on which maps are "match" maps. If you're suggesting I make some unilateral decision on which maps are "match" maps, that would please only a few people and anger everyone else.

But... If you think you can get all clans to agree on which maps are and aren't "match" maps, maybe there is a standard for that after all.

[RAMPAGE]

Imho it should be something developers should think about if they wanna make some changes instead of verbal slapping (like in this case) of anyone that suggests anything new or massager like me.

Not sure where any verbal slapping or massages have occurred. Could you clarify?

The slapping or spanking has occurred on more than one occasion, although in this case no. I feel bad for misinterpreting what u said, and I am sorry for suggesting that u did the same. V-man, pls accept my deepest apologies.

Ontopic:
The poll we are suggesting is kinda difficult because of the numerous maps qualifying for official set, whether they are good for playing both on pubs and in matches, or just for matches. Then we also need to choose between options matches/pubs/remove. It already makes me dizzy. I' ll try to make it on ladder site but if anyone can organize it better I would use this opportunity to ask him/her politely to do it. Tnx.

[MorganKell]

An important skill to have in clan matches, and one that all clans should have, and that the best have in liquid lethal amounts, is adaptability. Versatility. Being able to change your gameplan on the fly while still carrying your fraggalicious along with you is what separates the Shimmies from the Sizzles. It's that step above l33tness and into the upper stratosphere of Awesome. To set a map "standard" for clan matches would take away from that. A clan has a pick, let them pick the most unfair, most ridiculously one-sided affair they can find. They're in it to win! Defending a clan's honor is vital to true AC supremacy. Being able to take anyone anywhere ANYTIME is an integral responsibility of the best, the Elite, and it's one that should never be taken for granted, and always expected of those we give the honor of Top Dog to.

All official maps should be allowed, since they are official. As for unofficial... well that's up to the clans. Let them work it out. However I would be interested in seeing a proposal for the map standard. If tweaked and shimmied along properly it could be set forth as a sort of Clan Match Convention. Our version of the Geneva Convention xept ten times more epic and on the complete opposite side of the spectrum.

[V-Man]

The slapping or spanking has occurred on more than one occasion, although in this case no.

On behalf of my peers, I apologize for slapping/spanking you. You are, after all, our "Favorite Grum:P".

The poll we are suggesting is kinda difficult because of the numerous maps qualifying for official set, whether they are good for playing both on pubs and in matches, or just for matches. Then we also need to choose between options matches/pubs/remove. It already makes me dizzy. I' ll try to make it on ladder site but if anyone can organize it better I would use this opportunity to do ask him politely to do it. Tnx.

One nearly unavoidable issue is the people or clans who miss the opportunity to have their voice heard. I can't think of a way to include everybody. Other than that, even the slightest semblance of agreement will be a huge benefit to this plan. I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I can't think of many areas (one being the AC World Cup) where large numbers of AC players agree on a set standard of things that are normally up to player preference.

A clan has a pick, let them pick the most unfair, most ridiculously one-sided affair they can find. They're in it to win! Defending a clan's honor is vital to true AC supremacy. Being able to take anyone anywhere ANYTIME is an integral responsibility of the best

My sizzle humbly bows before your Grand Shimminess. Now text me, you fool.

If tweaked and shimmied along properly it could be set forth as a sort of Clan Match Convention. Our version of the Geneva Convention xept ten times more epic and on the complete opposite side of the spectrum.

Seriously, if out of the 46 total active clans listed in the wiki you can get as many as 20 to solidly agree on something, I will accept it as AC canon. Whether the other devs also accept it is up to discussion I suppose.

This will seriously test inter-clan diplomacy.