Regarding haxjump
#1
Re Haxjumps:

I have a personal opinion on whether Haxjump should be restored/re-implemented but I don't think it is sustainable for the project if I make such a decision on my own.

The AC committee consisting of Grenadier, Mr. Floppy, Halo and XRD has now decided that the Haxjump will not be restored/re-implemented.

Rationale:
"Hax jumps are bugged - let you 'fly' over maps; allow to get 'infinite' speed, especially using binds/scripts; unfair - they give an advantage over people which can't use them (mainly inter players exploit it). Their non-trivial behavior, flying, etc. doesn't fit to arcade gameplay, which is a core of AC since the beginning. The compromise was fixing them by changing them to working edge jumps, which everybody can perform in a simple and predictable way. Edge jumps will work the same and fair for all. Inter player will lose advantage over pubs player, gema players will have dysfunctional gema maps. So part of inter players and gema community will be unhappy, if they won't be able to use hax jumps anymore, but removing such 'hax jumps' is just the best solution."

Thank you very much for your understanding.
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#2
(07 Apr 21, 08:17AM)driAn Wrote: The AC committee consisting of Grenadier, Mr. Floppy, Halo and XRD has now decided that the Haxjump will not be restored/re-implemented.
The best guys to ask about real gaming experience (sarcasm)
(07 Apr 21, 08:17AM)driAn Wrote: Inter player will lose advantage over pubs player, gema players will have dysfunctional gema maps.
Advantage over pub players, rly? Most of inter players got 144hz+ and top devices with a lot of gaming experience, they by default have unlimited advantage over pub players.
(07 Apr 21, 08:17AM)driAn Wrote: So part of inter players and gema community will be unhappy, if they won't be able to use hax jumps anymore, but removing such 'hax jumps' is just the best solution."
Best for who? For Grenadier, Mr. Floppy, Halo and XRD? Ask realvikings players at least, make a public vote or smthing.

Hax technique are pretty constant once u understand it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC2zAVDcFls
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#3
I will say its a fucking joke that none of the players in this 'committee' are part of the group of inter players/comp players. Once again decisions are made disregarding comp (and gema) players. All to cater to random pub players who install this game, play twice, accuse someone in a pub for cheating when they kill them 3x in a row, and then uninstall the game.

Hilariously simple train of thought to remove it after YEARS.

Public votes never really work but at least consult comp players, has this ever been done??

And some people wonder why they're getting abuse lol

edit: talked to some of the committee members and suggested some changes
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#4
I don't see why it has to be so exclusive. Unreal Tournament had mutators like low gravity and so on, so why not just make a mode where haxjumps are enabled/disabled. Personally I think the gema community should be encouraged, so giving them an option to vote gema maps with the haxjump on and whatnot seems, on the surface, to be the easiest solution. By removing things you are alienating the players who use it, thus making the playerbase even smaller. Games that feature community based content and are moddable usually have a dedicated playerbase and a good community, examples are everywhere so no need ot list any really.
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#5
If I may, I would like to add my thoughts.

1. Thanks for taking the time to update this game. It is much needed, and I'm happy to see some improvements and bugfixes coming. It's great to see this involvement.
2. About the jump: It is a hard decision to make, I understand. I use the crouch/jump all the time. It makes AC fun for me.
3. I understand the point that it is actually a bug, but to me only the bind looks like a bug, not the jump itself. I don't think it looks so weird, except when people are 'frogging' over the map with the bind. I know it wasn't intended to be in the game, but it gave some funny possibilities.
3. Even though Morry comes up with a kind of ad hominem, I understand he is frustrated that this jump is cut out. It takes skill to master it. Something that can make you grow as a player. There's room for improvement, there's a learning curve. And yes, competitive players and gema players could've shed some more light on this than the current team, who, with all due respect, see it from their own angle.
4. I don't believe that flattening the skill level is a. caused by removing this jump, or b. is necessary. New players don't know which pick ups are good, which spots are good, they don't know the maps. I mean, you wouldn't create a shotgun with 100 spread for everybody, because pubplayers can't aim would you? I even saw someone complaining about AR kickback a few weeks ago. It's exactly this possibility to become better at the game that can trigger people to improve and keep playing. At least for me it did. Some jumps in regular and official maps, also my own maps, are, or look like they are designed for this feature.
5. I don't see many people using the bind in public. When they do so in competitive play, they're usually called out. If they do it in pubs, they risk a 20 min ban usually, or if they don't I don't see so much advantage. It's also harder to aim.
6. I don't see much of a problem for gema. Only that the skill level required is lower without the jump, so it will become less fun to do.

I wouldn't personally remove this feature, as I love to use it, needed time to get good at it, and use it as an integral part of the game.
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#6
Thank you for your feedback.

I understand the frustration, but I also think that we should support the committee. I am convinced that the committee is making decisions in the best interest of the game.

Of course, it may be that not all relevant information or impacts were fully identified or considered in the decision.

So what we can do is present a new proposal (or proposals) to the committee and ask them for a decision. However, that is no guarantee that the decision will change.

rktnoob, YesWeCamp, I can assist you in submitting this proposal. If you want my help you can DM me on Discord.
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#7
I think you guys (devs) should present better arguments for the decisions you make.

I have spoked to Mr Floppy and Halo, and they actually presented reasonable and justifiable choices. Much better than the quote currently used in the post above. For future purposes I would suggest using these more concrete arguments rather than a loose quote basing things off some 'advantage inter players have over pub players' as really this is just joke logic and does not, in a sense, protect pub players whatsoever. Anyway they might have already discussed these things with you. Keep up the work!
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#8
split off into a separate thread
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#9
This reminds me of Halo 2 sword flying (which has been indirectly patched and now requires a macro to reliably perform)

Advanced movement isn't frowned on in itself but when it is exploiting a glitch to do so it doesn't seem to me like something that should stay in a pvp game especially as a macro

That said I realize strafe walking and edge jumping are themselves glitches that were embraced as features. They are easy for any player to execute though as sort of a baseline movement option for anyone.

Additionally I understand some GEMA maps utilize this jump

Perhaps going in the other direction could be considered making it easier so you reliably don't need a macro to assimilate it as a basic movement option for anyone

If the game had just came out it would've been easier to make a call but now it's sorta established so maybe should be grandfathered in, in some way, perhaps not in its current form

Could be as simple as making a "crouch jump" where you jump higher out of a crouch
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#10
Just for clarification. Edge jump is indeed a intended feature, not a glitch. However, its implementation is the reason for jumping to be glitchy and haxjump even being a thing.
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#11
I've played AC on and off for almost a decade. It was, and still is, my favorite Open Source Shooter. I never really got how some of these "glitch jumps" were done so I can see how it can put some people off as "cheating". Reading through these comments though I see that it is also a native form of gameplay. Isn't there room for both? TBH I'm just glad that there are still people playing AC. Its probably that I only really play public servers but I thought this game was pretty much dead. I try to mention it whenever is appropriate in hopes that more people will play. I really hope that AC will live on for decades to come.
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#12
Is haxjump an advantage? Sure, if you can do it. Same goes for using nades or being able to do headshots. Removing haxjump is just as ridiculous as removing those game mechanics, because these are skills that just need practice to do.

Haxjump doesn't need a macro or some crazy binds. It's crouch, jump, crouch, jump. You just need to do it fast enough. It personally took me a month to do my first haxjump and another month to do it consistently. Anyone can do it, it's just like learning to play a fast song on an instrument.

Back to removing haxjump for the sake of pub players. The reality is that pub players aren't getting out-jumped in a fight. They're getting out-gunned by snipers who consistently hit their shots, swap to pistol, and finish them in 1 second.. Or they're getting out-sprayed by SMG users who can control their recoil and land every shot. When facing such an overwhelming opponent, this game does let you kill at the same time, so pub players are given a chance to trade. But they usually don't and that speaks to the skill difference. It has nothing to do with out-jumping pub players with hax-jump. Honestly, most top fraggers don't even use haxjump, but just strafe jump and maybe edgejump. If pub players lose a gunfight to someone haxjumping, they probably would lose even if it was a normal strafe jump.

Haxjump isn't the gap between pros and pub players, it's the overall skill and experience. Besides being out-gunned, a lot of pub players don't react or respond when getting shot outside of their field of vision. Don't blame haxjump and remove it, because it won't make a difference at all in pubs. It just punishes inter players and gema players who have mastered the skill.
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#13
(07 Apr 21, 08:17AM)driAn Wrote: Re Haxjumps:

I have a personal opinion on whether Haxjump should be restored/re-implemented but I don't think it is sustainable for the project if I make such a decision on my own.

The AC committee consisting of Grenadier, Mr. Floppy, Halo and XRD has now decided that the Haxjump will not be restored/re-implemented.

Rationale:
"Hax jumps are bugged - let you 'fly' over maps; allow to get 'infinite' speed, especially using binds/scripts; unfair - they give an advantage over people which can't use them (mainly inter players exploit it). Their non-trivial behavior, flying, etc. doesn't fit to arcade gameplay, which is a core of AC since the beginning. The compromise was fixing them by changing them to working edge jumps, which everybody can perform in a simple and predictable way. Edge jumps will work the same and fair for all. Inter player will lose advantage over pubs player, gema players will have dysfunctional gema maps. So part of inter players and gema community will be unhappy, if they won't be able to use hax jumps anymore, but removing such 'hax jumps' is just the best solution."

Thank you very much for your understanding.

it's just stupid to hear that haxjump is unfair thing from people who don't even play this game :) haxjump is not just jump that makes you fly ... it's a whole art for which you have to train a lot to become good at it. I can do haxjump without pre jump. And i can do it perfectly, I trained a lot to get that result, I don't understand why ppl think it's unfair or something like that. It's a hard work to get haxjump, ur left hand going crazy when u do it, sometimes it even hurts :/ AC will be boring without it, just smg game without any movements skills. Imo it's better to remove haxbind and spectatemode5(6). Also i don't understand why u removing /lighscale... When someone streaming or making videos about ac, they should use lighscale because ac is too dark for youtube or twitch. As i know some players have problems with gamma and they can't change it, so they have to use lightscale to see something lol. It's really great that devs are back and going to make update, but sadly they won't hear community.
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#14
(26 Apr 21, 08:12PM)Kostya Wrote: it's just stupid to hear that haxjump is unfair thing from people who don't even play this game :) haxjump is not just jump that makes you fly ... it's a whole art for which you have to train a lot to become good at it. I can do haxjump without pre jump. And i can do it perfectly, I trained a lot to get that result, I don't understand why ppl think it's unfair or something like that. It's a hard work to get haxjump, ur left hand going crazy when u do it, sometimes it even hurts :/ AC will be boring without it, just smg game without any movements skills. Imo it's better to remove haxbind and spectatemode5(6). Also i don't understand why u removing /lighscale... When someone streaming or making videos about ac, they should use lighscale because ac is too dark for youtube or twitch. As i know some players have problems with gamma and they can't change it, so they have to use lightscale to see something lol. It's really great that devs are back and going to make update, but sadly they won't hear community.

Re haxjump:
There are different opinions about haxjump and the topic is a bit more complicated than it appears to be. It is not just a question of a binary "restore haxjump" or "keep haxjump removed" decision but rather about a sustainable solutions that addresses the issue at its core. If you care about haxjump then I suggest you get in touch with Husk and RKT. They are working on a proposal for the committee listing different options with pro's and con's.

Re lightscale:
There are currently 65 open issues registered in github and lightscale/gamma is none of them as far as I know. If you care about lightscale then I suggest you create an issue on github so that the topic can be reviewed and addressed. My opinion is that AC is way, way too dark based on my observation that on average notebooks you see barely anything. This my personal opinion. Again, simply restoring lightscale might not be a good long-term solution. The first step would be that you create an issue on github.

Re spectatemode:
This has already been identified here -> https://github.com/assaultcube/AC/issues/259

Re devs won't hear the community
It is probably the first time in ac history that the devs consider themselves subordinate to a committee and so you should be happy about this first incremental step towards a more sustainable governance model. This does not mean that you have to agree with the composition of the committee or their decisions. We will respect their decisions and if we think the decisions are not optimal, we will try to bring better arguments and better solutions to the table. This is how we can move forward.
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#15
(26 Apr 21, 08:12PM)Kostya Wrote: ...
AC will be boring without it, just smg game without any movements skills.
...

I've heard this a few times now and still don't understand where it is coming from.

Taking ac_desert3 as reference, every trick jump in that map (both drops in mid, barrel to window, RVSF flag platform to left entrance without going across lockers) can be performed without haxjump in v1.2 and the current v1.3 alpha. It does require quite a bit of movements skills, including timing and positioning to pull them off using strafe running + crouch jumping + rifle jumping, but nothing will change about that when haxjump might be removed.

In my opinion there's already a lot to discover and learn concerning movement in AC. In contrast to haxjump, those techniques listed above provide a balanced risk/reward scenario and can be performed only at a reasonable speed, which will give opponents adequate time to respond.

For me personally this is one of the main reasons, why I'm not too fond of keeping haxjump. Besides the hit reg issues that arise from haxjumps combined with rifle running.

As driAn said, there is a proposal in the making and the decision will be revisited. However, I thought I should give this hint, because I feel some people might get the wrong picture about what AC movement without haxjump will be like.
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#16
(27 Apr 21, 04:10PM)Mr.Floppy Wrote:
(26 Apr 21, 08:12PM)Kostya Wrote: ...
AC will be boring without it, just smg game without any movements skills.
...

I've heard this a few times now and still don't understand where it is coming from.

Taking ac_desert3 as reference, every trick jump in that map (both drops in mid, barrel to window, RVSF flag platform to left entrance without going across lockers) can be performed without haxjump in v1.2 and the current v1.3 alpha. It does require quite a bit of movements skills, including timing and positioning to pull them off using strafe running + crouch jumping + rifle jumping, but nothing will change about that when haxjump might be removed.

In my opinion there's already a lot to discover and learn concerning movement in AC. In contrast to haxjump, those techniques listed above provide a balanced risk/reward scenario and can be performed only at a reasonable speed, which will give opponents adequate time to respond.

For me personally this is one of the main reasons, why I'm not too fond of keeping haxjump. Besides the hit reg issues that arise from haxjumps combined with rifle running.

As driAn said, there is a proposal in the making and the decision will be revisited. However, I thought I should give this hint, because I feel some people might get the wrong picture about what AC movement without haxjump will be like.

It's isn't hard to do those strafe runs lol. There's nothing about skill u just turn around and shoot behind urself, which everyone did and doing in 1.2. AC is so slow now and it's bad, everything based on aim. I'm so sad playing 1.3... I just can't enjoy it :/
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#17
Sorry, but now I'm confused.

I wasn't talking about strafe runs, but trick jumps that can be performed without haxjump, namely the ones to be found in ac_desert3:
  • both drops in mid
  • barrel to window
  • RVSF flag platform to left entrance without going across lockers

So, if performing those without haxjump indeed 'wouldn't be hard', than why one would need haxjump in the first place?

Honestly, I just want to understand this. What do you mean by 'haxjump makes the game faster', or looking at it the other way, what situations will become 'slower' if haxjump was removed.

Thanks in advance for elaborating!
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#18
According to Brutalsystem there is a speed gain limiter. It does affect haxjump, but also movements using that kind of trick. Try AR jumping (crouch jumping) and you can see the difference in speed more clearly. In 1.2 I can reach 4-6 speed, in 1.3 I can only reach about 2. This also happens when you do the hax jump, your crouch jump is sped up. You reach the same kind of speed. Then when using this in 1.3 nothing happens, you are still as slow as if you are straferunning.
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#19
(28 Apr 21, 08:01AM)Mr.Floppy Wrote: 1) I wasn't talking about strafe runs, but trick jumps that can be performed without haxjump, namely the ones to be found in ac_desert3:
  • both drops in mid
  • barrel to window
  • RVSF flag platform to left entrance without going across lockers

So, if performing those without haxjump indeed 'wouldn't be hard', than why one would need haxjump in the first place?

2) Honestly, I just want to understand this. What do you mean by 'haxjump makes the game faster', or looking at it the other way, what situations will become 'slower' if haxjump was removed.
1) Because you can avoid all of these jumps by making 1 haxjump, instead of making jump with gun and waste bullets in air. In 1.2 it's hard to get flag and jump out with haxjump, in 1.3 it would be unreal to do it (in hard matches for sure).
2) Well this is damb question, how can you juge and even decide something about haxjump if you can't understand simple things... Look at first post at this topic to see why haxjump makes game faster. About slow situations... You have to shoot down to jump at something high, which needs time! After u jump over something, youuuu have to back your crosshair to normal position to kill enemy. Also enemy can start shoot at you while you looking down to make that shit jump :)
The problem of that topic that devs and committee can't understand what is competitive scene of ac. You don't understand how hard to get flag in 1.2 and to score that flag. Imo AC is still alive only because 2 groups of players. First is gema players who playing gema to become better and become best gema player in ac, and second group is inter family, who playing 2v2 and 3v3 almost everyday, who enjoying AC with those mechanics and spending time with theirs friends. I really hope that devs will try to hear ac community and make them happy, cuz only ac community can truly say what will make ac better!
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#20
Kostya can we please have a respectful discussion here. Thank you.
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#21
Summing all up I conclude the discussion concerning haxjump isn't really about 'added movement abilities' or 'raised skill ceiling', but really only about speed.

So, finally we can get everyone into the discussion to voice their opinion, not only players who use and promote haxjump, but also players who
  • aren't even aware what haxjump is about
  • can't be bothered to mess around with glitches
  • actively refuse to use haxjump
Because from those players' perspective the gameplay actually won't change from v1.2 to v1.3 when haxjump was to be removed. But in fact their experience would change when haxjump would be implemented as a feature. That simple question being:

Would you like Assault Cube to be faster paced than it is now in v1.2, or not?
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#22
Kostya Wrote:1) Because you can avoid all of these jumps by making 1 haxjump, instead of making jump with gun and waste bullets in air.

all of the d3 jumps are possible w/o rifle jumping. there might be some on other maps that wont work anymore but the majority definately does. its harder and relies on an actual feature than a glitch.

i think the pace of the game is fine. it will get faster again as players get used to more rifle sprints again instead of being able to spam haxjump. as floppy said this is a risk/reward movement and requires calculated timing.
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#23
Assault Cube v1.2 fast enough with those haxjumps, it gives you control on hard jumps. About people who don't know what is haxjump or whatever. They can ask people to teach them, also they can watch great video on youtube how to do it. Haxjump is hard to learn, really hard. To get it you need a lot of practice, so you will spend more time in game to learn it. I'm talking about myself, I've been playing AC over 3 years for now. And i spend a lot of hours in empty map, to get haxjump, to get it perfect in any position. Hax jump is skill thing so players will play more to train it. Couple month ago i started teach 2 players how to do haxjump. You know what? They learn it in 1-2 weeks and use it in matches. For sure they can't do it perfectly but still they are trying to do it in game. They will be great players in future. So why we can't teach "old" or "new" players to get it? If they interesting in it, they will play more to improve themselves! About d3 jumps without hax, yesterday played/trained with gurung who has great skills in jumping. He wasn't able to do a lot of jumps with rifle :) Top mid jump is unreal to get it perfectly. U can't jump out from rvsf base with edge only. Those jumps are so randomly cuz there's no crouch boost. Also i've been playing inter on d3 in 1.3 and i just hate that map now... When i come to rvsf base i'm just lost, i don't know what should i do. Jumps are random there. Also it's unreal/hard to get mid jump at swamp. Hard to take kevlar in right side of shine. Crouching make u slower and sometimes u just stuck on same place trying to make that jump. Hard to get into window on cla base of swamp. Unreal to leave any base on werk by stairs. Overall i loved to play 1.3. Everything soo smoothly, great work by devs!
P.S. return haxjumps please :)
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#24
AssaultCube has fast-paced gameplay. Not all bugs are unwanted, some are really useful features. Straferunning is a bug too, it can't be removed just because inter players/experienced players can do it and have unfair advantage over pub players.


[+] Haxjump is a skill that anyone can learn. It doesn't require any macros, binds or scripts.

[+] Since this "feature" has been in AC for a long time. Many players' movements are based on haxjump, edge jump etc.

[+] It is a creative technique :)

[+] As n0c told, anyone who learns it surely have advantage over the others who don't know to do it. And same goes for other skills like aiming, movements etc

[+] Removing haxjump not only affects gema and inters. But also LSS.

[+] Performing haxjump requires precise timing and effort, unlike haxbind and macros.

[+] Removing haxjump might reduce playerbase.

[+] Although removing haxbind entirely is not possible. It can be removed to some extent. ( by removing the ability to bind [crouch; jump] and/or [execute "crouch"; execute "jump"] to a key.


So to conclude on haxjumps, keep haxjump and remove the ability to haxbind!


Overall AC 1.3 is really good, almost no hitdrops, many bugfixes and cool competitive features like /pause, removal of sm6, removal of al_rollofffactor and al_referencedistance etc. Makes it really nice. Only bad thing is the bugfix done to crouching, jumping and double jumping, which makes the game way slower by not only removing haxjump but also reducing the crouch boost and edge boost.


P.S. Please revert the bugfixes done to crouching, jumping and doublejumping :D
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#25
(01 May 21, 03:58PM)KillerRay Wrote: So to conclude on haxjumps, keep haxjump and remove the ability to haxbind!

Not possible without hard-coding the binds for those actions (which shouldn't be done)

(01 May 21, 03:58PM)KillerRay Wrote: Makes it really nice. Only bad thing is the bugfix done to crouching, jumping and double jumping, which makes the game way slower by also reducing the crouch boost and edge boost.

Was edge-jumping itself nerfed? Crouch boost? Are you just referring to the "hax jump" ?

My opinion:

a new official movement mechanic could be considered with a "crouch jump" (not midair) similar to various platforming games where you crouch and then jump resulting in a higher jump (with similar gains to previous "haxjump" so the movement is available to everyone.

Mechanically it would just add a second conditional trigger to the edge jumping code: jumping immediately after a crouch.
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#26
Quote:Not possible without hard-coding the binds for those actions (which shouldn't be done)

Well it's also impossible to prevent hacks like triggerbot, wallhack. But atleast haxbinding can be prevented to some extent right? That's what I meant

Quote:Was edge-jumping itself nerfed? Crouch boost? Are you just referring to the "hax jump" ?

Yes, due to the bugfix done, edge jumps now in AC 1.3 is way too slow and random, also the speed gained by crouching and then jumping immediately has belen reduced too. Also haxjump removed :/
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#27
(01 May 21, 11:52PM)KillerRay Wrote: Well it's also impossible to prevent hacks like triggerbot, wallhack. But atleast haxbinding can be prevented to some extent right? That's what I meant

To my understanding, wallhack/triggerbot (if it's what I think) are not possible "out-of-the-box" and require hacked clients. (I investigated "triggerbot" as I previously thought possible but it appears the behavior of a certain cubescript function has changed or I misremember it, making it not effeective for exploitation.

"haxbinding" as long as /crouch and /jump are callable with scripts "haxbind" won't go away. HOWEVER as I'm typing this I realize a possible solution would be to have a new kind of bind function where /jump and /crouch can exclusively be used when you physically push a key and not scriptable.

My opinion hasn't changed though (I think a new, easier to execute maneuver could be derived/inspired from "haxjump" so previously created content assuming this ability aren't deprecated but there is no longer a need to use a bind to consistently perform.

(01 May 21, 11:52PM)KillerRay Wrote: Yes, due to the bugfix done, edge jumps now in AC 1.3 is way too slow and random, also the speed gained by crouching and then jumping immediately has belen reduced too.

Is this a confirmed issue? I seem to vaguely remember the possibility of an internal player-speed limiter in the future release so maybe that's unintentionally effecting edge-jumping
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#28
I would like to just add that if your skills are purely based on haxjumping, boy you gotta learn to adapt. From the few games I've played, edge jump doesn't seem that slow in 1.3. But then again, I never used haxjump too often in games so I might perceive it differently
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#29
I like the idea of having more higher-level techniques that build up the skill ceiling of the game. I believe recoil running and edge jumping are some relatively unique aspects that heighten the skill ceiling of the game. That being said, I don't like the idea of a technique being "hax" or hinging on a bug. If it is as important as described I want it to be baked in as a feature.

To that end, is there a way that we can build the "hax jump" into the game as a feature? How do we take it out of bug status and make it a feature? Additionally, what role does it play in gameplay right now? Is there a different technique that we create that fills that role and makes a bit more sense for AC as a game?
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#30
(02 May 21, 10:52PM)Marti Wrote: I would like to just add that if your skills are purely based on haxjumping, boy you gotta learn to adapt.
From the few games I've played, edge jump doesn't seem that slow in 1.3. But then again, I never used haxjump too often in games so I might perceive it differently
 

What i meant by playstyle is that "movements" specifically. For e.g. you can simply move faster through the map. Not only haxjump is removed but also there are changes done to crouching and jumping. The crouch-boost has reduced, also if you try to notice the edge jump in 1.3, getting edge jump is quite random, and even if you get it, it's slower and less efficient.
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