So, that's it then, apparently.

[Undead]

i am so glad i don't have to deal with stef IRL.

[Cemer]

i understand being called hitler is an offensive thing but i dont think anyone wanted to insinuate you are responsible for the deaths of over 50 million people, but instead they are saying you are being a bit of an autocrat/dictator (or self directed fascist)

[Luc@s]

@stef
regarding what you say about who could possibly maintain the development from now (nobody according to you)
well you dont know how far we went with drakas, in so little time (including things youve been working on for motnhsm like authentication and an idea you had about reporting packets to a third party server- which we are planning to use for live match spectating and spectating proxy servers to allow spectating w/ ddos during events)
if you are judging the commitment of those who were put in the same situation as you, well, you know what they had to deal with, amd how little they might have cared about some issues because every hour spent working on this game feels like its wasted.
It was so much more efficient for me to make something on my owm w/o dealing with this toxic community.
anyway hf gl
@xrd: told you; but you and RR look like they decided who they wanted to keep around and who they wanted to get rid of.

[Nightmare]

/lock

[stef]

I'm not judging the commitment of anyone. I'm just stating that they are no longer here. Driven away by the mob. I wanted to provide a safe haven for them to come back to.

Of course, it is easier for you, to work without talking to anyone. But when you're done, you still have to take on the toxic community, or they will simply rip you to shreds. You'll end up playing internal clan matches along the w00p clan - or you will just have wasted your time, except much more of it. Are you actually planning to reintegrate your work into the main game? (I didn't expect that - which is why I counted you out on providing another release: I was talking about a new release for AC, not for a fork)

You can't just whip up a new binary and call it a game. You need a community to bring life to it and to provide content for it. What do you think, why I spent half of my work during the last year on improvements for mappers?

It would have been easy for me, to just fork the game. But if all I have to go on is content from the "good old days", then that fork is dead before it gets started.

You are not the first clan, who tries to build your own version of the game. But you would be the first to succeed.

I wanted to continue the game, that I helped to build up, during 0.92, 0.93 and 1.0.x.

[Undead]

I wanted to continue the game, that I helped to build up, during 0.92, 0.93 and 1.0.x.

precisely stef, its all about you.

thread finished

[Orynge]

Welp, if anyone needs me, I'll be over on http://pbclan.tk/

[RKTnoob]

As much as I would like to tell you to gtfo already stef, because we had troubles in the past, it doesn't mean we can't try to at least be civil and respectful towards other people. So I will say thank you for coding efforts, and good luck in your life. I was happy when I heard that you are leaving, because our contacts have left me nothing but a bitter taste, yet, nobody is perfect, and it is not for me to try to get people to agree with my personal opinion of you.

[Alien]

People like undead, vanquish etc. will be shocked. In fork nobody will listen them and discuss with them, especially Drakas with Lucas ;)

The playerbase of AC is based on noobs and newbies on crappy maps and pub servers. How many matches are here per week ? btw where is hi-skill ladder now ?

Toxic AC forum was formed by bad desicions in late versions. Building huge store for custom material and maps + map restriction if your playebase loves Ezjemwill built in coop mode, changing sniper gun + aditional armor with at least 50% sniper usage, removing ctf from ac_douze when this map is the most popular. The discussion to AC people was good start but i think some people lost hope so they do just destruction.

[Cemer]

ill say this again; the majority of people did not hate you stef until you started censoring people

i dont agree with your opinion that false facts must be removed; i think people should be educated that its wrong and not just hide it so other clueless people will continue to misunderstand- not drawing parallels to history or anything

[1Cap]

*omg this edit

Stef - ty for:

Get yourself ready to test development versions of AC
[/url]What's new in code development
[url=http://forum.cubers.net/thread-8242.html]Last-minute wishes for the next map format
Servers with unconverted map configs
And  Make a wish Voting
...
Plus-
We all know that. The client woop / lucas was a ridiculous attempt to power. Bring this to the official forum was even more destructive!
Responding to what Drakas said: "You have to trust us."
No! I do not trust a clan that is always hidden, do not use your own tag and tries to steal the game for yourself!

Unfortunately lucas this in the same boat ...
I'm here for a long time and I know how these actions could destroy the game. Programmers can not be part of any clan. Leaders should be chosen by the community.

[Luc@s]

Its a fucking video game. You play it or you don't play it. And we're not going to suck your cock and stop enjoying the game the way we want, just to please you, 1cap.
And everytime you post on these forums, its a disaster... Please just stop..

[jockskratos]

Just because you can code does not mean everyone has to accept your vision for the game, nor does it mean you can censor those who defy your vision.

The game has been damaged immensely by devs like you trying to restrict what people can play in game.

[Luc@s]

Just because you can code does not mean everyone has to accept your vision for the game, nor does it mean you can censor those who defy your vision.
The game has been damaged immensely by devs like you trying to restrict what people can play in game.

not just because you can't code does not mean every dev has to accept your 'vision' for the game (i.e. plsbringbackdouzectfandgemamapsallovertheplace) nor does it mean you can insult and harass those who actually have a vision and try to make it become real.
The game has been damaged immensly by demanding selfish kids who wont' accept the deep changes some are trying to bring to the game that are vital to its survival

[Luc@s]

@those who want "the community to be involved".
stef madeit clear how to get involved and help.
but if you think that getting involved means every you dislike should be removed, well you're basically supporting what has been killing AC for years and causing such an inactivity. some admins here decided that we should not hurt the plebs (lel) so it would be better to do nothing instead. cool, now you can add useless features, make polls about every stupid thing that does not even deserve to be discuss for more than 10 seconds, and also don't forget to destroy any ambitious project around the game for fallacious reasons like moral and shit, the game will die but i guess, the 'cool' kids will win and its what matters.

[Nightmare]

Hey luc, we like /pause. No others on the dev team seem against it right now. Why not add it to the actual game?

[Alien]

@Lucas
I am curious, what was wrong with 1.0 version ? How that children are damaging game if they don't code or make releases or processing their vision ? By playing the game ?

Every change is painful for software user but if all users left, there is something suspicious. I don't blame you because I don't know what is your vision. But stef did /autodownload function for maps and I believe in this. In that times it was very painful to synchronize maps. I think this feature did AC so popular.

[X-Ray_Dog]

Don't try to weasel out of this like Vanquish. You knew the consequences and made the decision. You are the last senior team member around and you are the sole administrator of the forum. It is your responsibility.
Yes, Vanquish didn't say the word - but he said I am him. Yes, G1gantuan did say the word, but did only indirectly call me him. Yes, it did happen on IRC but it was carried to the forum immediately - where Vanquish cheered for it again.

By cheering for it you mean his post that says "Nice quote Marti"? Sounds a lot more like sarcasm to me especially because his post and the quote were deleted within minutes.

And you are the last person around. When did you last talk with aerke, RK, the lead devs? Or Lucas or even cleaner or Bukz? Did you talk with anyone from the dev team, if you are making the right decision? If you are making the decision on your own, because it's your forum, then you can't blame other people for it. Grow a spine.

Bukz is on steam and I can usually get him to irc on call. Lucas just replied. I didn't ask anyone if I was making the right decision because the result seemed pretty clear. You said exactly that either vanquish keeps his points or you leave. That doesn't take a dozen people to figure out.

Ok well, Vanquish shouldn't have gotten 6 points for INDIRECTLY calling you anything. Take out the source. I would have supported you if you went after marti or g1gantuan (But g1g is banned now).

I tried talking to you. You made up bullshit about my moderation - and when I called you on it, you ran away and avoided IRC for an unprecedented three days. You knew very well, that I wanted to talk. You didn't want to.

Do you understand what a full time job is? I work 50+ hours sometimes, weekends are usually the worst. Sorry I use an irc bouncer to keep me there 24/7. My computer was on a max 2 hours over those three days and it was me registering my car and doing some class work (I'm also in college, sue me). But you don't seem to understand that I have a life too. AC is a spare time job and you know that as well. We had our conversation and it seemed like it ended there. I told you I needed to leave but you kept talking until the minute I left. I was never avoiding you and as soon as I got your PM asking me to join irc, I did. Pretty straight forward.

That would have been a waste of time. At this point, it was very clear, that my warnings weren't worth anything. If I had given any further warnings, you would just have revoked them, like the others. You had no reason to revoke any of them, because I issued them according to our agreement. You just made up new rules about insults not deserving warnings anymore, so you could revoke them. I told you repeatedly, that I won't moderate the forum anymore. I told you repeatedly, that you have to moderate yourself, like you always claimed. You did not warn Marti. You did not delete any of hist posts (including the hitler-quote). You did not warn Vanquish, not even a single point. You did not delete any of his posts. You did not warn G1gantuan. You did nothing. Nothing then, nothing now. Your decision. You know IRC well enough, to be aware, that kicking and banning on IRC does not work. The only thing that works on IRC is switching to moderated - which is punishement for everyone but the offender himself. A forum warning was my only possibility to show to Vanquish, that he can not just insult me in whatever way he pleases.
Btw, grenadier made a nice point. We ban cheaters all the time from the forum. Not warn. Ban. None of them ever cheated on the forum.

Regarding banning of cheaters on the forum, I don't. The only time I have is when they begin to whine about the ban, then they aren't worthy. I've let blacklisted players stay on the forum before. But again, you don't know me so lets just assume.

Here is your full warning log since being on this forum.

Spoiler

Show me where I constantly don't support you? Two warnings. Anything else as far as moderation? If you want to warn vanquish, 6 points is not fair and you know that because he didn't start this shit.

[Mousikos]

Can we close this thread? Bashing stef is not helping anybody. What happened happened.

[Ronald_Reagan]

You are the last senior team member around and you are the sole administrator of the forum. It is your responsibility.

I feel left out! I administrator before him, and team member way before him.

even cleaner

Side note, has anyone heard from him? Curious how he is doing.

Did you talk with anyone from the dev team, if you are making the right decision? If you are making the decision on your own, because it's your forum, then you can't blame other people for it. Grow a spine.

I agree with XRD, half of this game is community and some actions have alienated much of the community.

you ran away and avoided IRC for an unprecedented three days. You knew very well, that I wanted to talk. You didn't want to.

Yeah, that whole pesky working long work days. It's wonderful having to work hard to get money, much of which goes to pay for these very forums.

You made me fair game for the forum mob. Not the other way round. I told you, that I needed the forum and what I needed it for and why. I told you, that I need your support. You own the forum.

I'll actually side with you. The dev team could've sided with you much earlier and made this whole shitfest not happen. From the start I could see where this was going. I knew your moderation techniques were unprecedented on these forums and were bound to gain a negative reaction. When this happens, the moderator will get attacked. There are some things you can do to limit the attacks on you and make the cycle of negativity stop. Its a skill you can learn with warning and banning Undead over and over again.

I was too scared to approach you because I didn't want to dissuade you from participating in the development of the game. I didn't want to intervene because I knew it could've looked like I was attacking you, and I didn't know how to approach the issue. If the dev team early on backed you up and helped kill the negative cycle then we could've prevented this shitfest from festering.

Btw, grenadier made a nice point. We ban cheaters all the time from the forum. Not warn. Ban. None of them ever cheated on the forum.

This is because we consider cheaters as people we don't want in our game at all. We will ban on the MS, the forums, and IRC (sometimes), for the duration of their ban. We don't want cheaters anywhere in our community as they are such a big problem and ruin the game in such a big way.

@xrd: told you; but you and RR look like they decided who they wanted to keep around and who they wanted to get rid of.

Yeah, say it in a black and white sort of way.
I really want stef to stay. He is one of the best devs to come around into AC. He has done great things for the game, and I've notice him sort of mentor other people who want to contribute. The main problem is when it comes to his moderation. There is set rules for moderation (see in the mod forums), and they weren't really followed. Being unfamiliar with the current community and how it progressed I think he had expectations of the forum community that couldn't have been met.

---

Anyways, stef:
I wish you the best of luck in your future ventures. You mentioned that AC is just a hobby for you, and I totally understand that. My main involvement with AC is in IRC and my clan's forums. My main hobbies have shifted, I now work on other personal projects rather than AC. Heading AC development is a giant commitment to make, and you did a valiant job of doing it. I understand why you would want to leave. Much of the community is sort of a sweet toxic. Most people here are good people, its just that when put together its horrific. Marti is fun to hang around, Vanquish is a great person to talk to and has wonderful insights. Undead has some of the most well thought out theses about, and its just the way it is. If sort through it, you will find these things. I guess you never found your group of people that kept you interested. For me, the only reason why I'm still around is my clan. I (but really 'we') accumulated a set of personalities I found entertaining and worked together well.

So have a good one. By the way, I've never undervalued your contributions to the game, even before you returned to the dev team. When I researched the history of AC awhile back I recognized your contributions and how they positively affected AC.

[Ronald_Reagan]

Also, two final notes.

Just went over that warning log. The point reduction of mine was my attempt to clear the situation a little bit and provide an example of how the forum should be moderated.

Stef, if you are done with the thread, tell us as we want to close it if you are done with it.

[SKB]

So with stef gone what's next for AC?

[X-Ray_Dog]

I also want to add one last thing in addition to my last post. Stef you still claim I never supported you. Not even a month ago I said in IRC that I could give you a free VPS for you to play around with for real world testing of ac features you were working on such as the next master server or an AC server. You can't deny that. A free box, with it's own IP, separate from everything else, free, just for you. What better offer considering I'm the hosting dev? You pretty much shrugged that off and I thought it was a damn good deal that anyone would go for.

To touch on moderation once more, you said I wasn't deleting posts insulting you. You were more than capable of doing that yourself. Your claim is that I would have revoked whatever you would have done but I only did that recently with reasoning I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on. I wanted you to be an individual as well and no one should have to rely on me for everything. That's why we have moderators. I've never been against your moderation before and I've only explained to you how I run things in hopes you would follow suit. You didn't in this case and I went with it (See the warning log).

The part that threw me over edge was when you claimed I was avoiding you. I'm not scared of anyone, not even you. Accusing me of such was too much. I used the last of my free time to talk to you that day while getting ready for work. You frustrated me and I snapped and left me with no choice. I don't know what you want from me (Other than for vanquish to keep his 6 points which I will keep disagreeing on, see my last post). No body here is perfect, not even you, not even myself.

[stef]

I never asked you for a server and frankly, I don't remember you offering one. I've been hosting servers for AC for years and I'm done with that. You said, you could set up a server to test master server changes - but you never did. I also never asked for control over or even access to the master server. But I remember you being too lazy to simply recompile and restart the master once - to have an alternative to banning servers from the master. I never asked for any gifts. All I ever wanted from you is you to do your work. Yes, in the near future, a server with the next protocol on it would have been nice. But RK offered to run one long ago (probably already is). Run. Not just host. You really mistake me for someone, who needs to have control over everything. I know, that that is a common forum opinion about me. Doesn't make it true.

Also: feel free to find a single day on the IRC logs, where it took you more than a few hours to respond. Never happened - at least not as long as I knew you. When you had to go during our discussion, you knew, that you were leaving it unfinished. You knew, that the matter was not resolved. You left with a question of me unanswered. And you said, you had to go on an eight hour shift. And you didn't return for 72 hours, when I finally PM'd you. I'll leave it up to the readers to figure out, if you were dodging me or not.

A free box, with it's own IP, separate from everything else, free, just for you.

And yet, on the hidden forum, I remember the most recent post being from you about how you have to burn through the last of AC's donations to finance hosting. That's probably another reason, why you want devs to discuss in secret.

I can't really quote from that post, because you revoked my access to that area. Which brings me to my last point: you, X-Ray_Dog, are a hypocrite. Your whole point, why Vanquish can not be held responsible for insulting me, was that "it only happened on IRC". And yet, for the same reason, me calling you out on avoiding me, which also happened only on IRC, you immediately went and revoked my access to the dev parts of the forum. Immediately. No warning, no nothing. I indirectly called you a "coward" for avoiding me, and you felt so horribly insulted, that you had to take immediate action on my forum account. You should some day google "coward" in comparison to "hitler". You have absolutely no problem with using your power over the forum to take revenge for something that happened on IRC. The insult itself doesn't really matter. The only condition is: it has to have happened to YOU, not just somebody else. After all, YOU own the forum and the master server and handle (or better: rule) it as you please. Don't try to fool anyone here. Hypocrite.

<X-Ray_Dog> Fuck off

:)

PS: you remember, that I immediately noticed being banned from the hidden forum? That's because my goodbye-letter was supposed to go there instead of here. This whole shitfest here is basically your fault :D
I guess, as soon as you run out of excuses to defend yourself, you'll be closing or even deleting it. You own this forum...

[Undead]

I can't really quote from that post, because you revoked my access to that area. Which brings me to my last point: you, X-Ray_Dog, are a hypocrite. Your whole point, why Vanquish can not be held responsible for insulting me, was that "it only happened on IRC". And yet, for the same reason, me calling you out on avoiding me, which also happened only on IRC, you immediately went and revoked my access to the dev parts of the forum.

isn't it amusing when stef is subject to the same shit that he dealt to everyone else? you are hypocrite #1 stef. you can't have your cake and eat it; if you want justice, be just.

i may have a solution: why don't we write some new, proper, clear, and agreeable forum rules, that are enforced to the law? (on the provision that everyone can agree to them). then, we can avoid this nonsense that has been going for an incredibly long time, where administrators/moderators enforce according to however they feel.

[Cemer]

no lie im seriously interested in the dynamic of stefs irl conversations and i want to see how my peer group differs from his because i cannot understand why vanquishs insult matters to this extent

[Harps]

If you look at the past year of posts (by Marti, Undead, Nightmare and some others perhaps) since Stef came back, particularly in the past 6 months. You will see constant attacks like this, perhaps based on some level of misunderstanding of what stef actually does, actually...or just being plain cruel, like this one. What Vanquish and Marti did that last time, particularly Marti, was just the straw the broke the camel's back.

[Undead]

You will see constant attacks like this, perhaps based on some level of misunderstanding of what stef actually does

translation: harps don't actually know why they "attack" him.

i do find it amusing how you see the attacks towards stef as bad and the ones towards me as ok. you're not really thinking in terms of justice, are you harps?

[Luc@s]

Why are you so afraid of overmoderation ? If anything, these forums aren't moderated enough. Harps made a good point regarding Marti and Vanquish posts (some of them being disgusting). At some point, when so many contributors left for about the same reason, maybe you should question yourself.

I've barely banned people and given warning points on these forums (less than most moderators and admins) and i would have given a lot more, if i felt i could do it w/o getting my rights revoked.

Most often, when i was targeted, i used to use the report feature but guess what, the other mods didn't give a fuck.

Finally i tried to explain this issue to Ronald Reagan and XRD, but they were against more moderation because they were afraid of the consequences. They were afraid of the possible shitstorms that might follow the needed ban waves. They are weak, and weak people should not be moderating. At least, they should let the other mods do it, without rejecting their decisions. After a discussion on IRC, i told RR that letting this harassment and flame going on would eventually make people leave, again. I told him that basically, he had to choose between the contributors who are getting pissed from this situation, and those who create it. He answered that he would prefer 1Cap over me.

As a result, the forums remained a toxic environment. And stef left.

I'm not saying my situation is exactly comparable, since i'm not as experienced as stef when it comes to coding ; but i've been confronted to similar issues, with this community ; and felt betrayed by those who were supposed to help setting up a friendly and collaborative environment to work.

I really wish i could have worked with him, and Drakas - those two did a lot for AC, and i have a lot to learn from their experience - but unfortunately, those who have a control over the community, don't care, are not ambitious, or are afraid of doing anything that might upset some people. As long as it remains, this game has future.

[Ronald_Reagan]

I would respond to your whole post, but I've done enough long posts lately. So instead I'll just ask you for logs about for me saying I'd prefer 1Cap over you. If I ever said that, this quote is probably taken out of context.