Let me balance this game

[DrauL]

EDIT 2: Larry still winning the poll \o/

Have you noticed a very clear line between the demographic of who voted for what? Because it is quite humorous.

[Vanquish]

Have you noticed a very clear line between the demographic of who voted for what? Because it is quite humorous.

Absolutely. The majority (not all) of competitive players want Larry to balance the game because he's going to prioritise competitive gaming scenarios with his weapon balancing.
Meanwhile, the people voting against are simply people who don't want that (devs for obvious reasons, pub-only players since the majority of them won't know any better, and competitive players who don't trust Larry). I still feel as though some people are voting based on their personal opinions of Larry rather than on what would be objectively best for the game, and it's for reasons like this that conducting a poll is something of a moot point, because nothing will ultimately come of it.

If nothing else, though, it's nice to see that Larry's ideas are garnering significant support.

[1Cap]

Spoiler

Dear Roflcopter,

"Let me balance this game"

the last one, who said that, nearly ruined the game by trying that, but go on...

"This is unlikely to get anywhere,"

yep, obviously

"but frankly the balance is rubbish"

thx

"I know how to balance this game properly."

but you can't tell how, right now?

"Currently time to kill is massive and this allows players with bad reaction time and awareness to do better. Some weapon are completely useless."

I bet, SrPER$IAN facepalmed, when he realised, that he totally forgot to include a 'Missing team (weapon balance)'. How could he miss that...

"That's what I would like to do if the devs are willing for fairly radical changes."

the game barely survived the last several years of messing with the weapon balance, so, sure, we'll throw that all away in a heartbeat

"The problem I can see is that everyone has an opinion"

no shit, really?

"and frankly most come from a biased position."

it's good, that you noticed that, because with that argument, you can silence anyone who's not agreeing with you

"I need to be able to do the whole thing instead of balancing by arguing and then making some compromise."

great: so, there will be no need for testing - we can release it immediately? since it would of course work as promised?

"Sure fun is particularly important, but also so is the learning curve, fairness and competition."

Sounds great! But I'm not sure, what this thread is supposed to be. Do you expect, that we blindly agree to switch out the core of the game to whatever you can come up with?

Go ahead. Post your solution. But, I'm afraid, there /will/ be a discussion...

T H I S
AND

Spoiler

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-7699-post...#pid152159

T H I S

[TheNihilanth]

The AC scripts are the root of all evil. At least, certain features 'devs' haveimplemented. Yes, as someone said, it is possible to make a triggerbot, with the current scripting capabilities in AC (now that someone mentioned is too late to hide it from unscrupulous people) I don't know if this was intentional or plain goofiness, only god knows, but I do hope that now that this 'well known secret' was metioned 'devs' revert the changes...
Remove the 'advantageous' script functions and don't allow self-compiled client binaries (a checksum perhaps?) and magically those 'godly' 'players' will fall the way down into their real playing level. #acsoviet

[Orynge]

I want a more gentle learning curve to encourage new competitive players

I just want to point out this issue, that I feel is overlooked for some reason. This is probably better for a different thread, but player retention is absolute shit and it's no wonder when new players normally struggle to get more than a few kills in their first few hours of gameplay in pubs.

[jamz]

...Meanwhile, the people voting against are simply people who don't want that (devs for obvious reasons...

Could you please elucidate for those, like me, who have missed the 'obvious reasons'?
My personal reason for voting 'no' was your exact reason for competitive players voting 'yes'.

I personally couldn't even see the point of this thread. Larry must have known beforehand exactly what the outcome would be. (In general) competitive players voting yes, pubbers and haters voting no, sensible people silently wondering why he can't just spare the time to code the changes and let us praise his awesomeness when it's complete and fall over each other in the race to commit it.

[RKTnoob]

pub-only players since the majority of them won't know any better

How much of those pub only players that don't know any better are actually registered on this forum and will vote on this thread?

[Vanquish]

How much of those pub only players that don't know any better are actually registered on this forum and will vote on this thread?

It was 4am for me and my articulation was unclear, sorry! What I meant is that people who solely play public games won't see that there is an issue because, as I stated in a previous post, public gameplay can better adapt to a weapon balance, regardless of whether that balance is good or bad. Therefore they're all voting no since they don't see that there is an issue - Anderson's comment is proof of this.

Could you please elucidate for those, like me, who have missed the 'obvious reasons'?

Again, it was just a poor choice of words. It's pretty much what you stated in the latter half of your post when you referred to 'sensible people'. Competitive players generally (save a few), just want things fixed. They see the need to revive the game as so great that they're essentially wanting to ignore the formalities that someone would ordinarily have to undergo in order to have their code added. Devs just don't want people jumping the gun, and want to see Larry's changes before they're even considered (and then inevitably shot down by the majority of public players and people who personally dislike him). I can see why Larry is unmotivated to do it though. Some people that voted no on this poll would probably still vote no even if his changes made the game perfect, and that's definitely unmotivating.

[1Cap]

"probably " is a great english word...
I can say anything and then say "probably "...
.....
Roflcopter must be clear here or ill start to think very bad about this thread intentions.

[RKTnoob]

I don't believe one can know all the players oppinions. There are a lot of players out there, some of them pros, some of them semi pros, some of them noobs. And then there are the ways they play the game, some only play pubs, some micx, and some only play clan matches and/or inters. How do you know who falls into what category, and how do you know how will they vote?

All this aside, catering only to one category could possibly not sit well with the others.

[ExodusS]

...The result was that about half of competitive AC players decided to call it quits, and half of the competitive players that remained (myself included) went inactive or migrated to other games.

You said you were there or you were aware of the 1.0's situation, it looks like you are ignoring the fact, bright-skins and modified scopes were existing, but for sure were not tolerated at all and in any form in all clans as long as clans were trying to be stronger than their opponents through their skills and not through something else. It was the 1.0 logic YourSister described perfectly here:

Many try to minimize the AC changed mentality, but for me is is so clear. I perfectly remembered how the matches were in 1.04, and most of all, i remember the spirit of the game as very different from now. Also, i agree with you about blaming jason and larry. Me and Panda were among the first to face epic, and we were since the first days extremely disappointed by their attitude.

I never said you were using script, but you were tolerating it and it contributed to AC's competition spirit self-destruction.

And please don't try and make out as though scripts are the reason why nobody plays AssaultCube anymore. You know the reason.

If you were speaking about the 'whole' community, well I already said something about it:

...AC is going downhill because almost all his positive facts are now worthless...

But if you try still to close your eyes on the real end of the competition, well I won't explain it one more time, of course the script/exploit issue is not the only relevant argument but AC 1.2 provides perfectly a good competition system because weapons are way more balanced than they were in the 1.1. You can't insta-win with the AR anymore, here is what I see you all complaining about. Learn to think for others for once.

---

EDIT:

The majority (not all) of competitive players want Larry to balance the game because...

Hosta, Xemi... should we accept their votes? Plus most of regular forum users said no, others are just sheeps who had to request a new password because they didn't log-in since the last similar poll. The amount of public player who want to stop the changes would just outbalance the poll and impose their 'no'.

[Robtics]

This is unlikely to get anywhere, but frankly the balance is rubbish.
I know how to balance this game properly.
Currently time to kill is massive and this allows players with bad reaction time and awareness to do better.
Some weapon are completely useless.

I wonder in what world you win peoples support which such a post - what about presenting this "knownledge of how to balance the game properly" in a professional manner?

[Hosta]

What's wrong With my vote ? I could Still read everything , i don't need to login. I made my own opinion thats it

[ExodusS]

What's wrong With my vote ? I could Still read everything , i don't need to login. I made my own opinion thats it

Is your oponion based on the really good vision you have of the game (through walls)?

[DamDam]

Is your oponion based on the really good vision you have of the game (though walls)?

Wooow, that's so cheap XD
You know (and if you don't I'll tell you) that Hosta was never a permanent cheater like Plenas,Lexus and etc..
In fact he only tried cheats once to "see how it was" and got caught. He never tried to abuse it to win in clan matches and the only people he abused it were the few pub players that were in the server he joined and played 2 games with hacks on.

I don't think you can see him as an abusive hacker when he's "tried" the cheats for roughly 15 minutes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's alright to cheat, I'm just saying I don't consider Hosta as a malicious hacker.

[Hosta]

Yes , I'd happily see Larry making the competitive scene more active With a weapon balance. I mean , a lot of you say that you've never seen such a good balance but tell me why people of the old version aren't playing Anymore ( some of them ) ? You loose interest , carabine is unknown , shotgun has become useless. So there are only 3 weapons played ? So i'd like to see some changes or at least giving him a chance. I could be wrong but that's what I think the best.

[ExodusS]

...but tell me why people of the old version aren't playing Anymore ( some of them ) ?

Bitch please, the AR and unfair picks in matches raised too many clans and players to the top in only a few months, their apogee is now done.

[al3rt]

Just move the masterserver back to v104. It'll fix all problems.

[Vanquish]

apogee.

wat

I don't think that people should try to defend cheaters. but the fact of the matter is, that Hosta and Xemi are not cheating. they're no different from your bumbud Youngstud who you vehemently defend at every available opportunity.

Also if you think people aren't playing anymore because there's no overpowered weapon, you're wrong for two reasons. Firstly, the smg is the new overpowered gun. Particularly if you have very low ping (I have 6ms on the bob server) you are literally unstoppable (please don't say that this is bullshit unless you've played with very low ping because it seriously *feels* like you don't even have spread).
Secondly, people aren't playing anymore because there's nothing to play. That's simply it. All of the best players from 1.1 adapted to 1.2 with no trouble, some even improved. If you'd care back up your point by naming people who lost skill to the extent that they are no longer playing the game, then please do so. I haven't seen anyone who was good in the last version be bad in the current version.

[ExodusS]

I haven't seen anyone who was good in the last version be bad in the current version.

We really don't have the same definition of a good player.

[Marti]

I haven't seen anyone who was good in the last version be bad in the current version.

We really don't have the same definition of a good player.

i think vanquish means the competitive players, and didnt you quit playing competitive? so yeah, i think you both have a different definition, since you dont play against the same players? :D

[Robtics]

there shouldnt be a difference between players regardless of how they enjoy the game anyways...

[DamDam]

We really don't have the same definition of a good player.

Since you only consider people from 1.0 to have "real skill" because back in the days you were somewhat relevant in the competitive scene then ofc there will be differences in your definitions.
The truth is, new players came and got better at the game and outclassed the "oldies", some dealt with and sticked to the scene (Honor,Harrek, Sanzo, Undead, some BoBs FDs...) while some others focused on whining about how the game is cheaty, different and unfair now.

Instead of whining you couldve also started training and acknowledging the fact that you got worse, instead of criticizing every new comer that was better than you and was obviously hurting your massive ego..

[ExodusS]

God damn it DamDam, you are still not ban yet? Like always you never read correctly what I say, when I spoke about the 1.0 things, it was about the mentality or the 'spirit' if you prefer (those words are written in the concerned posts, honestly, I think you always do that on purpose, you need to invest all your money into some good glasses or just shut up). You think all my actions are related to my 'massive ego' you are just ignoring the fact someone can fight for something even if he's not directly concerned, I'm not here to be popular, I don't give a shit about the weapon balance but, in contrary to you, I care about all the public people who play the game.

Fucking troll that drag everything offtopic, kill him with fire.

inb4 all ex rC come and complain

[Vanquish]

Fucking troll that drag everything offtopic, kill him with fire.

I get that AC is an incredibly unimportant thing to spend your time arguing about, but I feel the need to point this out.
Weren't you the one that turned a thread about weapon balance into a personal attack on Larry with this comment?

Don't accept exploits, scripts or anything, and fight it instead of accepting/ignoring this issue, this goes to you, Larry, Jason and everyone who played a role in the competition scene's suicide.

Only thing worse than a troll who derails forum threads is a fallacious troll who derails forum threads. :-)

[ExodusS]

Weren't you the one that turned a thread about weapon balance into a personal attack on Larry with this comment?

Isn't the thread about the weapon balance and made by Larry?

[DamDam]

God damn it DamDam, you are still not ban yet?

Nope, I was never banned simply because I've never been offensive to anyone, and the reason why you want me banned is because I always point out the sensitive things that make you uncomfortable.

Fucking troll that drag everything offtopic, kill him with fire.

However, that is offensive and should be punished with a ban :-)

I only gave my opinion about the weapon balance and Larry being part of it. I don't feel any of what's in my post is offtopic since it's a direct response to words you wrote few posts before (scripts, 1.04, competitive scene suicide blahblah).
If my response is offtopic according to you, then so is yours buddy :)

[Vanquish]

Isn't the thread about the weapon balance and made by Larry?

Yeah. I said you turned it around from the topic of weapon balance to a personal attack on Larry. While many people believe he's done a lot to help the game, you're openly attacking him by saying he's part of the reason that people have seen a decline in competitive games. He's hosted servers, created hitfixes, has coded numerous patches for bug fixes, hosted two successful tournaments (aG cup + 2012 ACWC), and even coded an anticheat client for the latter event. Not to mention the fact that he's mentored countless players that were/are playing at a competitive level (myself/Waffles/Jason/Xenon/Sepehr/Vermi were all mentored by Larry in some way, just to name a few).
And yet you're still using the fact that he and his team didn't play the game the way YOU like it as an excuse to put him down, which is an argument based purely on your own emotions. This is the reason why publicly posting a poll such as this was a bad idea, Larry's intentions were good but he's ended up just attracting criticism, all of which has been counterintuitive to the initial topic of balancing weapons.

I'd appreciate it, for Larry's sake, if this thread could now return to the original topic, but something tells me a bunch of more crap is incoming.

-> Vanquish out


EDIT: Larry's poll numbers keep on rising \o/

[ExodusS]

And yet you're still using the fact that he and his team didn't play the game the way YOU like it as an excuse to put him down

His project is clearly to reward the skill, it means it will requiers skill to get a reward wich is not fun for the majority of AC players and wich does not fit with AC's objectives. The story should end here, but because you tryhard and insist...

All I did was trying to tell how people were wrong by their actions though this forum and in-game, Larry clearly forced some players (mostly his teamates) to play the way he wanted, I never did such actions.

If the balance system is so hard to handle and so subjective, why should we give this huge and unstable task to someone who said the sniper was fine during the 1.1?

[PhaNtom]

How about you both give each other the finger and then proceed to stfu.