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Hey guys. The situation is clear. Even if I smell a lot of complains from the old pro players, I think this release is a good one and there is no reason to ratify the death of AC, as I saw in some posts.
Tho the picture is quite depressing: very few players online, old clans are shirking, no new clans on the horizon. True.
But as someone who has been here for a long time I say that a turnover is simply physiological. Old players think that the good ol' times are gone and mates disappeared. Well... it happens: it is normal. If you are not able to water yourself at the fountain of eternal youth (as I did!) just move on. But there is a world full of people that can start it all again and a new era can shine. We just need a few things to make it happen.
First: every community needs an agorà, every town needs a central square. In a game that place is the ladder (and ladder servers). I always wondered why this hasn't never been clear to the dev team. People like to join pubs and see their results: they like to see their ranking and check if they improve. This generates fun (and addiction).
For a too long time we have been missing it. Do you remember Hi-Skill times? And before Tyd Ladder (apollo one's)?
Well I know Tyd Ladder is still alive, but ( sorry Tyd guys, I love you!) for some reasons it never really worked as an efficient meeting point.
The BoB Ladder did and reached the leading position. Then with the new release it was offline for a long time: too bad. It would have been correct to release the new version in synch with a new ladder.
But we can still fix this. BoB ladder is working again. We just need more servers and ADMINS (hey BoB guys, how could you forget to move old admins to new servers?). Active admins are a very important part of the job: do not forget this..
I think that the dev team should sponsor the Bob ladder and make it in a way "official". Then this must be publicized (many ways are possible: for instance giving a fixed (sticky) first position to ladder servers in the masterserver list of servers, stressing it on the home page of AC website, if possible giving it emphasis at the opening of the game etc etc). I remember that when I was a noob (or maybe just MORE noob then now) it took me months to figure that there were ladders... The existence of a ladder is not something that one has to find out: it has to be clearly advertised! What if in a town there were no signs pointing to the center of the city?
Do this and and noobs will start to join again, they will get better and better, they'll form clan, and new life will spread in the desert.
It is so simple: just add water...
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14 Mar 14, 12:44PM
(This post was last modified: 14 Mar 14, 12:45PM by RandumKiwi.)
Firstly, the world doesn't revolve around you and your ladder.
Secondly, dev team won't sponsor your ladder.
Thirdly, your post is disappointing and shows lack of understanding of the AC community.
*drops mic and walks off stage*
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14 Mar 14, 12:48PM
(This post was last modified: 14 Mar 14, 12:48PM by ketar.)
Hey randum, the option that I do not understand Ac community is absolutely possible (but please consider that I run a 50K users community so I have some experience), but BoB ladder is not "my ladder". Except "working" as admin there I had no other affiliation with it.
I'd like you to elaborate better your critics. Really: explain me where am I wrong and why it is disappointing. I can't get it.
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and they wonder why AC is dying :~)
good post ketar
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#ketar4dev
I agree on a lot of points
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I'm not going to actively disagree with any of your points, ketar, but I don't share your opinion. This may be because I'm not exactly a sociable animal, and I see AC (in-game, at least) as a way of passing some time doing something I enjoy.
The important fact to remember about the 1.0 TyD and Hi-Skill ladders is that they were 100% non-official. They worked well because of the driving forces behind them (great TyD admins in Apollo and Clown, and Drakas who really understands gaming). You can't just set up a website, parse some logs, and expect it to work.
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14 Mar 14, 03:22PM
(This post was last modified: 14 Mar 14, 03:43PM by Krayce.)
I agree to both arguments. Now, we are waiting for a Perros ladder servers! (jk) <3
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14 Mar 14, 03:23PM
(This post was last modified: 14 Mar 14, 03:41PM by ketar.)
Hey Jamz ty for your reply.
I understand there is something that I do not understand/know. For instance I cannot evaluate with objectivity the value of a ladder (under a tech point of view: I can just evaluate its interface, and under that pov BoB Ladder is a good one). I read between your lines that there is something you dislike in BoB's one, and I do not know exactly why. But this is not the point: let's make a step away for a moment from which ladder it could or should be. Of course if there was an official one, not related to any clan, it would be much better. But given the work and time it needs I didn't dare to propose anybody to do it and sadly I cannot offer any help.
What I can do it's just try and give my opinion. And, if we take away the issue of which ladder and who run it, the core of my observation is that a game without a scoring system and a history of the successes (or fails) of a player lacks of a centre of gravity. All the others are (desired) side effects: a server where you often go is a place where you start meeting and knowing people, chatting, making friends and so on. This is the prerequisite of many other things to come (talks, clans, falling in love, marriages, babies... whatever).
Anomie is our enemy, participation and identity are our goals.
On another hand we should not never take ourselves as the standard. I just try to put myself in the shoes of a teenager that joins AC for the very first time: this is what we should do if we want AC to survive.
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14 Mar 14, 05:10PM
(This post was last modified: 14 Mar 14, 05:11PM by ExodusS.)
I remember Luc@s worked a lot or was going to improve something similar, it was not supposed to be an "official ladder" (or maybe yes?) but I know he was going to start something big, a kind of website that would just gather all informations such as a ladder and a similar team/match ranking system than the ESL and of course, it would be perfectly compatible with AC, because we all know ESL doesn't fit with this game well. I am sure it was something like that, and I also remember Reedie was going to work on it too, I don't know what happened to this project, I guess it needed too many work.
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/complety a little offtopic
How are things going with the new mode? That'll be played a lot i think
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(14 Mar 14, 06:32PM)Marti Wrote: /complety a little offtopic
How are things going with the new mode? That'll be played a lot i think
Luc@s said it needs testing to have the chance to get into 1.3
#go-test-it-now
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Agreed with the way you describe ACs current state. However your solution wont really change much I believe. The bobladderlike servers can rise again without having a so called official ladder. Its just a matter of time and wait to have people finding the game. New players come and play, old ones go. Or they hang around a bit... I think the best way is a positive attitude towards new players ans AC itself does the rest.
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My point of view:
Bakers are not butchers.
Sellers are not doctors ...
Developers are not public relations.
Etc. ..
Read posts:
The focus is not to create a community that fosters the game.
Actually I could not identify any moderator or admin who has the necessary abilities to maintain a healthy and happy community. :)
But okay, we have something and it's better than nothing.
This is strange because everyone talks about what stands out is the AC community. But hell that paradox, what a lol!!
Opensource. Do yourself. Think, work and create the solution.
Bring something more concrete in progress and maybe some supporters and enthusiasts arise.
Why you're seeking official support?
For my part I am insisting on playing a game without sound. And I'm not alone in this. There are very many!
....but is decreasing ...
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You need client anticheat or you will waste time and nerves with administration. Next i don't believe in ladders, we played(play) this game because we wanted to kick ass of Shadow, Mile etc. and wanted to share our crappy maps with other players.
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i wanted to be in oNe from the moment i saw serenity play back in the day. i stuck around, serenity was a cheater. disillusionment is the death of ac.
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15 Mar 14, 04:36AM
(This post was last modified: 15 Mar 14, 04:37AM by CharlyMurphie.)
(15 Mar 14, 12:24AM)Alien Wrote: i don't believe in ladders,
Show me a game nowadays that doesn't have one . Since I was pumping quarters into pac-man and other things into Ms. Pac there was always a high score. Real gamers know, but I like your point with anti-cheat that never seems to never work with any game nowadays.
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Bah, the game is dead , deal with it.
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Nah I play pac-man all the time
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I like the idea of having an official Ladder but I personally believe it will be useless without some prerequisites. Ofcourse it motivates the players to play more and more to raise their ranks upper and upper in the Ladder.
hi-skill Ladder was a very successful one as the first known Ladder for AC. I think no non-official new ladders(all the currents and the later ones) can't achieve the popularity and success of that Ladder. Since the time when Hi-Skills ladder got down suddenly, all the players considered that any ladder might be alive today and dead the day after and all their scores(hours efforts of playing) will be gone with a poof. That's why I believe we need something constant. Maybe an official Ladder supported by the main devs would be the solution.
Another problem with the current Ladders is that they are all working individual. BoB Ladder, TyD Ladder, akimbo Ladder, etc. I have no idea why all these ladders get united together and sum up their results all in one main ladder.
One the other hand, just imagine a new player who loads AC for the first time and chooses a nickname for himself and starts playing for a while. It's so disappointing when he sees someone can easily impersonate his nickname and owns all his points in a second. I'm not sure that new player would like to get involved in process of proving that he is(or not) the right guy and blacklist the impersonator(as I doubt if he knows the forum really exists).
to sum up my words, I think a working ladder for AC would need at least to have three requirements : 1- Being one, 2- Being constant 3- Being safe
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(15 Mar 14, 08:42AM)SrPER$IAN Wrote: hi-skill Ladder was a very successful one as the first known Ladder for AC.
Actually, TyD ladder v1.0 was first.
Then, that crumbled after the person maintaining it became inactive.
Then, hi-Skill replaced it.
Then, TyD ladder 2.0 competed with it.
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(14 Mar 14, 03:23PM)ketar Wrote: ...I read between your lines that there is something you dislike in BoB's one... This was absolutely not intentional, and is not true.
Quote:...if there was an official one, not related to any clan, it would be much better...
This just seems like an unsubstantiated claim to me. The popularity of a ladder depends on intangible factors. If it were an easy thing to qualify/quantify, I'm pretty sure that someone would already be doing it, and doing it well.
Quote:...a server where you often go is a place where you start meeting and knowing people, chatting, making friends and so on.
I agree with this.
Quote:I just try to put myself in the shoes of a teenager that joins AC for the very first time...
The people who made this game popular, the 0.93 players who built a community that collectively contributed to the 1.0 development, where the game started attracting large numbers of players, didn't have a ladder. See below...
(15 Mar 14, 12:24AM)Alien Wrote: ...i don't believe in ladders, we played(play) this game because we wanted to kick ass of Shadow, Mile etc. and wanted to share our crappy maps with other players. Remind me who first developed the TyD ladder...
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(15 Mar 14, 10:19AM)jamz Wrote: Remind me who first developed the TyD ladder...
vi, aka acfan
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My mistake. I thought 'Lukas' had a hand in it. ;)
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You are saying ladders make people stick around the game, but it's a bit more complicated.
ladders make people interested in the competitive side of AC. And community members tend to consider that only clanplayers/competitive are active in this game. It is wrong as some of the "oldest" players i met in game never had a clan.
An official ladder ? Why not. But it probably won't happen.
By the way @exoduss: gave up this one because it would take me a huge amount of time i didn't want to waste.
Also about the akimbo ladder: it was an experiment around an ingame-points based ladder. There was no cooperation with other ladders because we were trying something that nobody wanted in the first place. It was suggested by Brett and i implemented it with more features (accuracy, covers, etc.). We wanted something different.
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The game is not made only of clans and competitions . But the game is a competitive game . No one will throw against the wall and rotate the mouse randomly ... Ok , some will , but not the point .
Yes, a LADDER motivates most players . It is a reference point and a goal to be achieved .
Help as a reference to assist the recruitment of clans . Help us to meet new players .
And much more ...
I believe a LADDER should be simple . Easy to understand the calculation of points .
Simple and clear parameters .
What hinders the creation of such LADDER is making it too complex .
I have 30 minutes a day that I can devote myself to helping a project in progress, or start . Let's create a LADDER . Simple and efficient. Let me know and help.
I will take the same post to ask some questions :
We can translate the interface of the game ( game interface ) to the Portuguese of Brazil ?
We can create some video tutorials in several languages and put these videos on a page of the official website ?
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(14 Mar 14, 03:23PM)ketar Wrote: I just try to put myself in the shoes of a teenager that joins AC for the very first time... (15 Mar 14, 10:19AM)jamz Wrote: The people who made this game popular, the 0.93 players who built a community that collectively contributed to the 1.0 development, where the game started attracting large numbers of players, didn't have a ladder. See below...
It was a different situation. I wasn't there yet but I guess you experienced then what in sociology it is called statu nascenti. Very different from the actual asset of AC, a settled institution. This implies a different strategy.
Anyhow. I have to tell you something: I am a maverick, or better a idiorythmic.
This means that often - even if I know most of you - I do not have an idea of many "behind-the-scene" things here: who is with who and who is against what.
From some answers I had here I'am lead to think that many here are implying things that I do know. Maybe I am wrong, maybe it is just my difficulties to catch nuances in English.
And I still wait for RandumKiwi to kindly walk back on stage and explain me his thought.
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(15 Mar 14, 03:04PM)ketar Wrote: And I still wait for RandumKiwi to kindly walk back on stage and explain me his thought.
he explained the entirety of his thoughts to you. i don't think he has anything more to say. i'll leave that to you to interpret.
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15 Mar 14, 03:26PM
(This post was last modified: 15 Mar 14, 03:30PM by ketar.)
For instance the first post of 1cap looks very cryptic to me. Most precisely when he says
(14 Mar 14, 10:02PM)1Cap Wrote: Opensource. Do yourself. Think, work and create the solution.
Bring something more concrete in progress and maybe some supporters and enthusiasts arise.
Why you're seeking official support?
Were you talking to me, 1cap? Or was there some irony directed to someone else (dev team?)? Sorry, I do not get it exactly.
If you were talking to me I think this is not the case. My contributions are ideas: I do not code. Btw it is exactly what I do in my job.
It could seem poor or weak: it is not. And particularly in this case. I am proposing a "marketing" strategy: no need to code here. There is a deserted-ignored ladder (once again I have no affiliation with it) and a game that is missing it. The main idea behind open source is "cooperation" right? Well... we have a perfect example of a missing cooperation.
Clearly I am not "seeking official support": I do not own or created anything. I am just throwing an idea (not the best one, not the only one) to help. *IF* it helps. Nothing else, nothing more.
(15 Mar 14, 03:23PM)Undead Wrote: (15 Mar 14, 03:04PM)ketar Wrote: And I still wait for RandumKiwi to kindly walk back on stage and explain me his thought.
he explained the entirety of his thoughts to you. i don't think he has anything more to say. i'll leave that to you to interpret.
Well, if it is so, I see no thoughts and many mistakes. We do not need oracles to be interpreted. We need people to discuss with.
But let's leave him talk for himself, right?
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15 Mar 14, 05:23PM
(This post was last modified: 15 Mar 14, 05:24PM by Vanquish.)
I don't think making a ladder will revive the competitive aspect of the game (I assume that's what you were talking about with the "noobs joining clans and spreading life in the desert" analogy), all it's going to do is just be an extra server on the serverlist. In my experience, the TyD ladder was usually very underpopulated and put a few bad maps into an otherwise good maprot, and the BoB ladder was laggy and had admin abusers. The biggest factor for me on which server to choose is/was always what map is running and how many players there are, not if it's a ladder or not. I remember I actually used to ritually avoid the BoB ladder servers because PERROS was an admin (EDIT: still is?)
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