Hmmm, interesting

[V-Man]

tipper...
He's served his sentence, taken his punishment. This new version of AC marks a second chance for everyone. If Kirin throws away his second chance, then your derision toward him is justified.

[DrauL]

I say Cheaters are Cheaters. They dont deserve a second chance.

[V-Man]

And you've never done anything wrong?
And you've never felt like you deserved a second chance at anything?

[Luc@s]

I say Cheaters are Cheaters. They dont deserve a second chance.

1) this decision is to server owners 2) too many admin abuse to do something like that imho

[DrauL]

And you've never done anything wrong?
And you've never felt like you deserved a second chance at anything?

I knew someone would say something about me. I said cheaters.

[jamz]

...If Kirin throws away his second chance...

My apologies for dragging up history, but in the interests of correctness, Otto/SolidSnake/Kirin threw away his second and third chances.

[Kirin]

since people are so ready to attack me i'll respond once.
jamz, in AC i did two mistakes:

first one: i trusted the wrong friend, and that got me banned, go read on BC forum if u want some "historical" text, i'm not going to explain myself again.
i got unbanned, then i got interested in programming and trying to improve AC *1
some time passes then ->
second one: i did a mistake trying to do what i said above (*1), i took my responsability and got banned (find the IRC chat log with brahma for the "historycal text")

and now i can play on very few servers.

so where all does chances came from jamz? not from reality for sure.

@Draul: you'll learn from life, that nothing is forever, nothing, and also that everyone makes mistakes, even you.

@V-Man: ty for your support V, but i cant blame people too much for hating me.

now as some people might have noted, i'm still trying to improve some aspects of AC, my intentions were good, and are good.

(sry for my poor writing style, i'm not english and i dont follow english lessons frequently)

[DrauL]

@Kirin, im not a hater. I have read your previous threads that you have posted. Im pretty sure you had a nice rage back on vanilla forums.

[tipper|DES|]

“since people are so ready to attack me i'll respond once.
jamz, in AC i did two mistakes:”

A couple of points Kirin
1) It is mistake to take a general comment on cheats as a personal attack; jamz was stating the facts as he believes them to be and I used you as an example because you perfectly fit the type of problem I was trying to illustrate, particularly given you had already commented in response to an earlier post of mine that concerned the subject of cheating.

2) Try as I might, I find it hard to believe anyone accidentally cheats. It is a deliberate action requiring both the forethought of acquiring the method to enable one to cheat in the first place and then a conscious process of installing the said cheat and then selecting it to use in game or in one of your cases, passing it on to another player.
The likelihood of such a mistake happening once is remote, the likelihood of it happening two or more times is so remote that any reasonable person would consider it close to impossible.
It really is quite simple; if you install a cheat then the intention to use it is there.

Further, if we are to believe your defense that on the occasions you were discovered to be involved in various aspects of cheating, accidents had taken place, it would seem you are so prone to making such mistakes you are a liability to yourself and the game and on those grounds alone shouldn’t be allowed to play.

If you find being an used as an example of a cheating player uncomfortable then one way to avoid this is not to comment, particularly on a matter that concerns cheating

[ketar]

I already said this in another thread, between the lines: I'll try to say that again clearly. Isn't this a place a microcosm, a tiny reproduction of the bigger one outside?

In the big place don't we have - mainly - a judicial system that try to fight crime working for the rehabilitation of the one who committed it? If in the small one the same values have a meaning, Kirin is a success of the community. And a good example for others who made a mistake.

But I don't know, and the question is not a rhetorical one, if we share this vision. If it doesn't apply here, why?

[Kirin]

tipper, i didnt take your first comment as a attack, i responded in a pacifical & consistent way:
first with this:
"tipper the obvious cheats you have seen, appeared only on recompiled servers (anticheat-less)"
and then with this:
"... ... if you can offer your valuable help by reporting new cheaters, dont hold yourself ;)
WB btw."

but i just saw personal attacks subliminally hidden, not the names & ip's of the cheaters you saw (that would have been helpfull).

tipper i believe that when my nickname appears in a comment, the comment is not general anymore, it is directed to me.

[tipper|DES|]

I already said this in another thread, between the lines: I'll try to say that again clearly. Isn't this a place a microcosm, a tiny reproduction of the bigger one outside?

In the big place don't we have - mainly - a judicial system that try to fight crime working for the rehabilitation of the one who committed it? If in the small one the same values have a meaning, Kirin is a success of the community. And a good example for others who made a mistake.

But I don't know, and the question is not a rhetorical one, if we share this vision. If it doesn't apply here, why?

ketar

An interesting point:

I’m not sure what we can include under the description of judicial system but…..
I would argue that one of the prime purposes of any judicial system is too remove the accused once found guilty, assuming a certain gravity of offense, from general society; this is too serve two purposes
a) protect society from any further offenses such an individual may commit and
b) punish that individual for the offenses proven against him.
I think most justice systems that exist in a “civilized” community view sentencing in this order:
1) the sentence itself, governed by the gravity of the offense and the sentencing guidelines at that time
2) punishment or retribution
3) rehabilitation

A lot depends on how serious an offense you consider cheating to be. Given the amount of problems cheating has given this game and most other online games i would say it is possibly the most serious. How long should the punishment be for someone who carries out the most serious offense within such a community?
If you believe that a judicial system works at all and want this micro community to reflect the macro community standards then the most serious offences carry a life sentence.
To get caught perpetrating this most serious offence more than once would I suggest, in the macro society you allude to, would mean natural life rather than the very long term of imprisonment a life sentence tends to mean.

As for the rehabilitation aspect; sure, I have no problem with attempting to rehabilitate offenders.
But ketar I ask you, if you were trying to rehabilitate a child molester would you let him/her work with children? I think you can follow my argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE0gbFBFgW4

[ketar]

ketar

An interesting point:

I’m not sure what we can include under the description of judicial system but…..
I would argue that one of the prime purposes of any judicial system is too remove the accused once found guilty, assuming a certain gravity of offense, from general society;

Hey Tipper,

I admit my knowledge about right is not so strong, but the most recent directions are for sure oriented toward social prevention and rehabilitation of criminals, given that this - IF the measures taken are effective - gives the best results for the society. The idea of punishment, in "civilized" societies is leaning more toward this point of view. But maybe we are going too far here. There are different visions about this and we cannot replicate that complexity here.
So we could cut short asking ourselves: do we prefer to have around a raging cheater or a rehabilitated dev?

As for the rehabilitation aspect; sure, I have no problem with attempting to rehabilitate offenders.
But ketar I ask you, if you were trying to rehabilitate a child molester would you let him/her work with children? I think you can follow my argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE0gbFBFgW4

But are you sure that the example you gave us fits the case? This is maybe the point. I tend to see a cheater more like a swindler and a thief, not as a child molester. That's way too terrible and dramatic. So the question could most likely be: if you are trying to rehabilitate a swindler or a thief would you let him have a job?
I would.
I actually did it once, mutatis mutandis ;-)

[ElCrema]

There is one big difference between real life and this game/community imo: anyone's life here is at stake, so people don't have a moral obligation to be so forgiven or lenient.

Since whatever action/punishment this community decides upon infractions (and what precisely consists in a serious infraction), won't affect any important fact of anyone's life, whatsoever, I don't relle see why we should based our actions in any existent judicial system (and besides, most of them don't have a say about online gamers behavior).

We can make our own rules and since so far we don't have any clear ones, the question is: What should our policy regarding cheaters (and any other infraction) be? Who should actually decided that, the developers, the server owners, the clan leaders/members, the forum users?

I don't know, but imho we should try to have this discussion, hopefully without the flames and the clan's political BS...

Its easy to deal with situations when you have clear rules and they sure would avoid a bunch of completely pointless and useless flames, likes some we had in this forums lately (a few of each, yours truly here, started)

[tipper|DES|]

 Okay ketar, I admit to using a bit of drama to illustrate a point :-p
However, I think the point is none the less valid.
I personally wouldn’t let a serial fraudster manage my financial affairs ;)
Mind you, having said that I do use banks………….:-s ;)

A lot depends on how seriously you take cheating on online games. I’ve heard the “it’s only a game ffs” argument; funny how all that changes when the cheating affects those who put this view forward.
At one level, certainly it’s a game, but it can just as easily be considered a sport and imagine the outcry if your favorite football team was beaten by a team of cheats!

More concerning in my view is not that cheats are being given another chance, it’s the way it’s happening and where these cheats and distributors of cheats are ending up.
Back to your micro/macro analogy; corruption in society is something we have to learn to deal with, corruption in government is something we should all fight against.
Something to think about perhaps ;)

[Alien]

why this thread is in general section if is full of BS. What can the browsing casual player of AC think about this community if he must read this. What is the point of this thread ?, should i sit and say "wow", he wrote "interesting" ? I dunno why so useless threads take so attentions and serious issues of this game are ignoring. Don't we have section "1.1 feedback" ? Don't we have "cheat section" ?

[ketar]

More concerning in my view is not that cheats are being given another chance, it’s the way it’s happening and where these cheats and distributors of cheats are ending up.
Back to your micro/macro analogy; corruption in society is something we have to learn to deal with, corruption in government is something we should all fight against.
Something to think about perhaps ;)

You have a point here. I am italian and when you say "corruption in the goverment" I start to stutter.
But I must say that all the real big hackers I used to know work now for banks and intelligence.

Anyhow I have to reflect on what you say. Probably you are right when you say that cheating is the most serious crime in here (the only one?), so maybe as The Crema points there are differences in the analogy, differences that I tend to underrate.
And its also true that I think to the average age of people around, so maybe that influences my severity. 'Cause at the end - here and there - we are the same persons. And kids can change fast, if well directed.

I agree with The Crema. Lets move away from single cases and go direct to the general questions. There should be a civil discussion (whoever the participants would be - maybe a council with delegates of all the parts? Am I dreaming?) to reach some sure and shared rules . It would be a real challenge for the community and a very interesting (ops sorry Alien, I said interesting) moment.

[Drakas]

... if you want to treat the law-ish way, then you must not be indifferent on types of intent (disturb, put others down, put oneself up, just try out), no difference on the method (discrete, obvious).

I'm sure you can imagine the variety of cases like that in real life and in here.

[MorganKell]

tipper I love how your post has gone awesome old school style because we're having some pretty sexy discussions in here. It is a video game your right Alien, but who cares what those "new" to the AC community think? They can read and will likely be impressed by the fact that we're so open minded :D. As for cheats... if my football team got beat by a team of hacks, I could give two shits. We know that if they hadn't had their hacks on they would have lost. We are the sexiest shit to walk the earth, and more importantly we are too cool for school. It's the fun and the challenge in beating the cheats that I play for. They piss me off for sure, and if they're like certain brazillians I've met recently i.e. YOU NOOB YOU NOOB I JUST WALLHACK ROUND CORNER AND HEADSHOT YOU YOU NOOB YOU NOOB then in those situations I relish a blacklisting i.e. suck it E3, but in every other one... who gives a shit? We'll catch them when we catch them, and until then they'll just lose that much more respect for being stupid fuks.

All this law mumbo jumbo and wanting rules just rubs my Fight the Man ethos wrong. Smoke that ganja, and chug those beers, but don't let the rules kick you in the rear. We've always been OK in the past and we'll continue to be OK in the future. By the way, this community everyone is complaining about... is FINE. Oh sure half of it doesn't like the other, and there's a whole lot of rage going around, but in the end no one gives a fuk, I know I don't, because we get to play AC. The GREATEST game on the planet! Next to chess and shots ofc... but shimmy shimmy. xD.

Whipping out awesomeness is hard work, and if any you shimmies would like translation please visit Emoposer. He speaketh the shimmy.

Hoooooohah!

[Bullpup]

"What is that even supposed to mean? One of the devs is secretly developing hacks?"
-No. Only god knows.

Please develop the comprehension skills ZARGE as you made me get banned for "accusing of cheats...? (+8 points)" I never stated this
What I meant was - with all the in fighting between devs, one may be leaking ways to circumvent getting detected - exposing weakness.... Not unheard of, think -corporate sabotage, and it happens in billion dollar companies so what makes ac impervious to this?

side order of "Bad Mouthing Dev's"
I pointed out that in plain sight that as tipper asked about the old forums (and i understand why they wont be back) that tipper was given the old "hows ur father" while emo was BANNED for asking same.

Don't let assaultcube implode and try to think about how you deal with all this 'fame', try to keep the swelling down in the cortex region.

Please do not reply to this post, just let the ideas expressed -sink in.

I understand You, and you don't understand me, and that's fine.

Good day Gentlemen.

[Kirin]

"with all the in fighting between devs, one may be leaking ways to circumvent getting detected"
are you implying that one of the devs is actually working against the game?
also why do you think that, on what base?
I personally believe that you just want to put more "meat on fire".
if you got concrete proofs against a Dev, i think everyone would like to listen, else i dont think it's a good idea to make proof-less general accusations.

[lordamit]

Look at this wonderful discussion.
I have not seen a good debate for a while, and it is very exciting to read through the words and counter words.

I would like to thank you all, specially tipper, and ketar participating in this thread whole heartedly.

Now I do not know much about pretty much everything, so I would like to imply common sense here. Lets consider an everyday society.

The point of establishing the laws is to prevent anyone from breaking the laws for the betterment of the society itself, serve punishments to the offenders and finally, allowing the offender considering several conditions to contribute in the betterment of the society.

Here is the catch. How will the offender be accepted in the society, when he is accused of committing the same crime several times?

He is kept under careful observation, and is prohibited from further damaging the society. The laws exist to serve the society and if the offender is capable of contributing in the society in an exceptional way, I think exceptions should be made, while maintaining careful observation.

However, those who are affected by the crime itself might bear a grudge against that criminal for ever. Regardless of the amount of effort the criminal puts in present, the victims are unable to forgive them.

Now, I have a question.
If that criminal now works to create ways for eradicating the tools of crime/the reasons for which people become criminals what are those victims supposed to do?

Will they still show their grudge, or will they understand that if these criminals are allowed to help under observation, no other people will share the same sufferings as theirs?

----------------------------------------

Bed time story is over. Who wants pizza?

[titiPT]

If one doesn't resist the tentation of cheating the first time, he probably won't resist the second time. Just think about that.

Oh and Kirin, everyone could be doing some crazy ass manbo jumbo to crew the game. Even me! If everyone trusted everyone, we would have as twice as many hackers and cheaters in the game (and a couple of decent players that have been accused of cheating by being awesome).
Bullpup just pointed this out.

[V-Man]

He's just saying it could happen.
Kind of like how a large asteroid could slam into earth someday, or how a lightning bolt could strike your house. It's a possibility that you don't need evidence to worry about.

@lordamit: Without a target for their hatred, haters would turn inward.

[Veritas]

The carbine requires precision aim at least 2x, so anyone killing you with that will never be a noob. What I don't like about the new version tho is how they made the SMG a true noob gun (huge random spread, almost no recoil).

Completely agree with you here Panda. The old SMG is greatly missed in the BC clan... It's like you've taken away my girlfriends breasts..... Not as much fun anymore, as I cant get any pleasure from the AR... There are plenty more Im speaking on behalf of btw. Find it boring when almost all my opponents are using the AR... bring the old SMG back and we'll at least have something to put up against the AR.

[FrankRay08]

*Spam removed*

[tempest]

^ spaaaaam.

Edit: all criticism aside, gotta love the mods.

[titiPT]

They could at least have cooler names. Like: botilicious.

[hikarikoifood]

pretty much my opinion too ... I still use the sniper tho and dont want to switch weapons! never!

[Undead]

The carbine requires precision aim at least 2x, so anyone killing you with that will never be a noob. What I don't like about the new version tho is how they made the SMG a true noob gun (huge random spread, almost no recoil).

Completely agree with you here Panda. The old SMG is greatly missed in the BC clan... It's like you've taken away my girlfriends breasts..... Not as much fun anymore, as I cant get any pleasure from the AR... There are plenty more Im speaking on behalf of btw. Find it boring when almost all my opponents are using the AR... bring the old SMG back and we'll at least have something to put up against the AR.

lol poor sniper