I Need Beta Testers! (Mappers Preferred)

[V-Man]

I'm making a new attempt at map generation for SVN. I have a lot of great things so far, but I need people to test and help me figure out what things need to change or be added.

So far, this thing can generate a new map with most of the main map features. What I need is help figuring out general bugs, as well as specific items:
1) I need to figure out how to change a mapmodel's angle in-loop without sleeps. This will also apply to playerstarts. So far I have been able to modify two or three in a loop at will using the go_to command, but for some reason it fails after that and simply uses my current angle to determine the mapmodel/playerstart angle, even if I specify a different one after-the-fact. ;_;

2) Does anyone have a good set of general rules for lighting?
3) I need better texture lists (floor/ceiling/walls as well as by theme).
4) Same for mapmodels.

Thanks to anyone who decides to test and report! :D

Map Generator on Akimbo
Requires SVN Tools and Maptools

[Ronald_Reagan]

Note that this is for SVN.

Mac users _may_ need to define mapsize as the size of the map they are trying to generate. So if you want a map size 6, you would do
/mapsize = 6
and then run the script. You only need to do this if you are changing mapsizes, or using the script for the first time.

[D1551D3N7]

Ill try this. Sounds brilliant.
Edit: I haven't time to browse through the code this morning to find out how to run it after I've put them in configuration and autoexec. Ill test it this evening.

[#M|A#Wolf]

SVN doesn't work for me, sowy ;-;

[Orynge]

As I said before, although it randomly places mapmodels randomly, it still makes better maps than those @camper creators.

[Alien]

This concept is disaster for creative people. :) Imagine AC with only generated variations of maps. Dogs on you! :) It is exactly that terrible default style and vision which is so much reduced by restrictions. Our target should be diversification and not standardization.

1. i couldn't find help docs for that commands in map tools package.

2. i miss /reverse_script in map tools package where with selected area you can create a script in sense of reverse engineering. The reusable code would be nice addition.

[V-Man]

This concept is disaster for creative people. :)

I'm not sure how many places I can or should put this before it starts to sound annoyingly redundant...

This is not meant to generate finished maps! This is meant as a tool to get you started and give you ideas! There are countless details that go into good mapmaking that are simply not dealt with in this script! Please put your creativity into any and every map you make!

1. i couldn't find help docs for that commands in map tools package.

Being a beta, I haven't actually made any docs yet. Pretty much all the docs are comments in the mapgen config file. XD
For starters, you'll need to know to put all three files in the "scripts" SVN folder; then, in-game, "/mapgenmenu" will get you started.

2. i miss /reverse_script in map tools package where with selected area you can create a script in sense of reverse engineering. The reusable code would be nice addition.

I'm not sure I've seen anything like that. If CubeScript had more access to cube details such as current textures, height, and vdelta information, this would be quite feasible.

I did make something that reads the solids in your map for use in other things... and vice-versa.

---

To those who may have gotten their hands on the first beta I passed around, this has a few changes and bug fixes in it already. You'll want to update yours with this version.

Here is another issue I'd like some help addressing:
The "genrooms" script is intended to generate enough rooms to fill the map, and uses simple geometry to eyeball how much room is left. However, it consistently generates more rooms than fit on the map. While this is not inherently a problem, it makes it difficult to keep track of individual rooms when they overlap. Can anyone see in that alias or its child alias "formyboundary" where this overlapping occurs?

[Lantry]

Dogs on you!

Umm, the one on top is a horse.

V-Man: I'm not really a mapper, but I know that a general rule for lights is to use brighter light in outside areas (i.e. areas with skymap texture on ceiling)
I will take a look at mapmodels and sort them by theme.

[D1551D3N7]

Okay I used /mapgenmenu in edit mode and pressed generate. Nothing happend seemingly the only setting that worked was mapsize. Am I doing something wrong? By SVN I think ye mean the beta of AC which I tried it in if it wasn't I tried it in 1.1.0.4 also and same results. I've used autexec.cfg to implement it. Sorry if this sound noob-ish but we all learn gradually lol.

[Alien]

"but I know that a general rule for lights"

this is exactly what i am aware, there are NO general rules !!!
there are many kinds of map which don't fit your rule

V-Man:i am not persuaded about generator but i like map tools package, i will try to test them, good next addition could be some for heightfields scripts and for ceilings (historical, futuristic, green, ships etc.), that reverse engineering, todo list script, quality script etc. there is huge area what can be done.

[V-Man]

That's the cool thing about the map generator: If you are opposed to automated map generation, you can avoid using it! Heck, you could even avoid playing on maps that are contributed to using it! But I am glad you like the maptools for what they are.
And yes, I now have a preliminary heightfield randomizer that makes smooth vdelta edits, thanks to Ronald_Reagan for his help.

@Lantry: That much about lights I guessed; to a subtle degree, lights that are in "outside" rooms are brighter than lights that are "inside." Should I make the difference bigger?

@D1551D3N7: This is made for the current SVN, not the beta released by flowtron earlier. X-Ray_Dog discovered while testing for me that plugging this into the Beta will not do much of anything at all since the entire script is set to run in the onNewMap alias, which is ignored by the beta. However, there are many idents used in this script that the current SVN can use, while the beta will give error messages for if run individually.

[Orynge]

Can you make it put light mapmodels on the roof where a light entity is? :O

[V-Man]

There is a maptool for that:
Make a selection where you want the light to be.
Type this for an example:

[SELECT ALL] Code:

/lightmodel 2 16 120

You'll need to manually edit the mapmodel height, though it's automatically raised a bit to begin with.

[Cleaner]

As I said to RR the other day although I have a lot of respect for V-Man and his work but this project for me it is a F2.

As Alien I mentioned the creativity loss in there an can foresee a lot of crap maps being uploaded on AKIMBO by non-mappers using this script.

Mapping starts with sketches, once in edit mode with upping or lowering a cube!

You say "This is meant as a tool to get you started and give you ideas" well may I reply to this that if you have no ideas don't even start a map. This project is a smack in the face to all decent mappers who spent countless hours to come up with maps we get our kicks on.

Sorry V-Man, I love you to bits but I ain't gonna help you on this one, tbh I am pretty much upset, I know you always try to help but in this case imho you are doing AC no good.

[Orynge]

Of curse, yes. I tried everything, but:

unknown alias lookup: selxs
unknown alias lookup: selys
unknown alias lookup: selxs
unknown alias lookup: selys
unknown alias lookup: selxs
unknown alias lookup: selys
unknown alias lookup: selxs
unknown alias lookup: selys

While selxs and selys commands works in console!

He has got the required files.

[Bukz]

Sorry Alien/Cleaner but I completely disagree. I think what V-Man is doing here is fantastic, not only is it ground breaking but the community will potentially benefit greatly from it.

I have a feeling this will get more people interested in mapping, so much so that they will no longer need to use a script like this to get them started. Random map generator or not, the mapping tools will make life easier even for the most experienced of cube mappers.

To say that what he is doing is a slap in the face to the experienced mappers is actually a slap in the face to V-Man, who is only trying to help in every way possible. V-Man is not trying to replace experienced mappers with a script, I believe that he is trying to make life easier on all of us, while at the same time get more people interested in mapping, so they too can one day become an experienced mapper.

Everybody starts somewhere, and if this is the tool that some will need to get them learning the editor, I say more power to them. Yes, good maps will always require a human's touch, but that doesn't mean that a little bit of computer assistance in the beginning is taking the challenge out of it.

Not to mention how much math and man hours probably went into designing this thing. Keep up the good work V-Man, kudos. :)

[Jg99]

i can beta test that map cause i made ac_desertstorage and its awesome

[D1551D3N7]

Okay I ran it and...

There shouldn't be grenades, healthpacks or ammo boxes that close to each other. The map just won't upload to a server if it does. Also it did take a while to put in the lights but that's natural due to how complicated your script is.

[V-Man]

Thanks for the feedback, D1551D3N7.
I will add pickup spacing to my to-do list. Just as a preliminary question to see what my script is doing wrong there, was that a size 6 map?

@Cleaner: I understand your opinion and thank you for stating it in a carefully-thought-out manner. I still love you. <3
The whole time I was scripting this, I had in my mind the thought that there would be several veteran mappers opposed to automated mapping in general. I must again insist that in no way will this script be pushed on anyone, nor should any map that comes from it be pushed. Nobody expects you to use the script, and you certainly don't have to play on any map that this script contributed to. This sentiment does not hurt my feelings at all, since I realized from the beginning that this would probably cause a little dismay.

Let me reassure you, though: Anyone releasing a "crap map" that was made using this script violates my stated purpose for the script and needs a stern lecture about creativity.

[Lantry]

I for one welcome our new computer overlords.

A personal anecdote about how I became interested in programming, which I feel is relevant:
I took an "intro to programming" class, where I learned the barest basics of C++ as well as other basic information about how programs work. However, what really got me into programming was finding the source code to the ever-wonderful slime soccer. The game was simple enough that I could mostly understand how it worked, and could easily experiment with the code. I didn't understand anything about "proper programming", "game design", or any of that nonsense, but it gave me something to work with at a time when I wasn't good enough to create a game on my own. Sure, I could have just changed the colors of the slimes and released it as a whole new game, but that wouldn't have helped anyone at all and would be very obvious.

I think that V-Man's script will be similar. Yes, people can rely on it to completely make a map for them, but that is not the purpose. The purpose is to bridge the gap between learning the controls and learning how to make a good map. New mappers shouldn't be encouraged to use this for ideas, IMO. They should be encouraged to generate a map and then pay attention to what looks good, what looks bad, and how to make it better.

[#M|A#Wolf]

I love slime soccer :D

[D1551D3N7]

Ya V-man it was size 6. This script has inspired me to make a minecraft mod but that would be really complicated so I invite anyone to take the challenge.

[Cemer]

The purpose is to bridge the gap between learning the controls and learning how to make a good map.

It would be cool if you could add hallways and stuff, but I assume that would be hard. Great job V-Man.

[V-Wifey]

This is great stuff. I agree with many points on both sides of the debate.
I think we've been seeing a large need for mapping tools in the community for a long time. The map generator is just a way to play with the shortcuts and compile them into one easy *Kaboom!*.

I believe it all comes down to the process by which you create, which is why I heavily support the new territory V-man is stepping into.
We discussed this topic recently in an interview V-man, myself and Ronald had for AC radio.. which hasn't been posted yet, (*a-hem* Waffles <3).

There are:
1) Artistic/ emotional based people
2) Logically minded people

Both create effective pieces of art, using very different methods.
This map generation IMO, is a very unique and brilliant form of art based on facts, patters and Logic. This starting point will be effective for people that are dominantly left brained in their methods of forming and creating art.

For mappers that are dominantly right brained in their creative development, beginning by moving a single cube up or down IS effective. Trying to successfully recreate something they saw in a dream is what they live for!

IRL - I find furniture restoration and re-purposing old items to be frustrating. You gotta admit, there are some really tricked out beauties that come from this form of thinking. I know I could really benefit from stretching myself.



p.s. - I don't think there is any shame in people that feel the same way Cleaner does about this project. I think up until this point mappers have been made out of people who are very artistic thinkers, with a special gift for also being able to problem solve analytically. Logic thinkers may have had to work very hard to "catch up" if they were determined to learn the emotional basis for mapping. I think this project will close the gap for a lot of those people and open new doors for us all at some point.

[V-Man]

The purpose is to bridge the gap between learning the controls and learning how to make a good map.

It would be cool if you could add hallways and stuff, but I assume that would be hard. Great job V-Man.

It was hard, almost made me put the script on the back-burner until I thought of a shortcut. But the feature ("gendoors") is in there, so all the rooms connect. What I don't have yet is a reliable way to make good-looking doorways, frames, doorjambs, accents, etc.

---

I'm almost finished making a random crate generator and a (closed-door) doorway maker. Then I'll move on to windows and other stuff on my to-do list.

[Snoosnoo]

AHEM

[Frogulis]

How long does it typically take to generate a map?
I ran it and left it for a couple of minutes and only succeeded in having AssaultCube freeze on me.
This is on SVN, built from the source that I updated about 20 minutes ago.
EDIT: Using Windows 7

[Bukz]

Frogulis, see this post for the answer.

The script doesn't work with the latest SVN source, due to the multiple selections addition. This will probably be fixed soon.

[V-Man]

Until the SVN selection commands function properly, please use SVN revision 6646 in testing this script. Thanks for your patience and sorry for inconveniences. I will update everything when the changes are made on both sides.

[Orynge]

This is what happens when someone makes a script for an unreleased version. XD