Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[MerCyKiL]

for shotgun: same damage as now. double barrel. same reload time. F1.

So we're going to make a weak weapon weaker?

weak? sir, you must not play pubs that often...

[#M|A#Wolf]

Larry's right Mercykil. I'd be confident enough to say that most of shotgun-only players in pubs don't even have a positive k/d. To be honest, shotguns don't really help them own, they just annoy when they are suddenly splattering someone going around a corner. Next time you are killed by a shotgunner in a pub check his scores and you'll see. I'm in favor of the idea of the double barrel, but if done then either the time between each shot or reload time would have to be reduced, that's for sure.

[Xenon]

The reason a shotgun is so powerful is because in majority of pubs its 7v7 or more and that means that on the maps of AssaultCube, that their is alot of players around and the majority of AC maps have alot of corners which shotguns can go and get free kills. A shotgun is not OP, if you know how to play verse a shotgun because if you know a shotgun is always going and watching somewhere, just hold back and kill the shotgun as he pushes you, where your weapon is suited.

As for shotgun balance, if it was Double Barrel it would have to reload in a bit shorter time, and the pumps would have to be reduced a little bit IMO.

[Edward]

In cm, shotgun is rather weak. In pubs and with many players on a small map, it is fucking over-powered. I remember a DM ac_arid with 20 players and everybody was shotguning (SMG, AR, Carbine and snipe was impossible to use. My shotgun was so sexy).

Btw, I think the shotgun is still a weak weapon.

But I do not like the idea that shotgunners could be "good players" with a "fucking good ratio". I do not like this idea because it is really easy to manage (comon 80% accuracy without even trying to aim correctly ... imagine damages you do).

I prefer the shotgun to be more a tactical choice depending map and how many players are connected than a "full weapon".

[Nightmare]

Nearly semi-auto double barrel shotgun.
Semi-auto carbine, 40 damage, 6 round magazine.
Balance is done.

[Xenon]

A carbine does not have 6 bullets and would be so weak if it did 40 damage-.-.

[MerCyKiL]

@ Wolf Larry Xenon Edward etc...ight perhaps you guys have a point. i havent played a shotgunner in matches so i really wouldnt know

---

A carbine does not have 6 bullets and would be so weak if it did 40 damage-.-.

not if it shot faster :)

what if we reduced carbine damage down to 40, kept ten bullets, but reduced shot intervals to 0.5 seconds?

takes three shots to kill but can now compete with automatic weapons.

---

I prefer the shotgun to be more a tactical choice depending map and how many players are connected than a "full weapon".

ac_arid ftw

[Roflcopter]

I agree with Xenon 100%.

In cm, shotgun is rather weak. In pubs and with many players on a small map, it is fucking over-powered. I remember a DM ac_arid with 20 players and everybody was shotguning (SMG, AR, Carbine and snipe was impossible to use. My shotgun was so sexy).

That's only overpowered in the same sense that sniper is "overpowered" on ac_depot. If the shotgun wasn't even strong in small maps with many corners then what's its purpose?

But I do not like the idea that shotgunners could be "good players" with a "fucking good ratio". I do not like this idea because it is really easy to manage (comon 80% accuracy without even trying to aim correctly ... imagine damages you do).

I prefer the shotgun to be more a tactical choice depending map and how many players are connected than a "full weapon".

Accuracy only tells half the story. I think the shotgun fires 21 pellets (or something like that), if a single pellet hits the shot counts as a hit even though it may only do 5 damage. You do still have to aim it to get decent damage.

Problem is shotgun has a very small but limited learning curve. So noobs can quickly become decent with it but good players are still limited by what it can do. The weapon needs to be harder but more versatile.

[Edward]

Problem is shotgun has a very small but limited learning curve. So noobs can quickly become decent with it but good players are still limited by what it can do. The weapon needs to be harder but more versatile.

YEAH ! That's it !!

And yeah shotgun have to be a good weapon on maps like arid or mines. I do not have any problem with that.

[Vanguard]

And yeah shotgun have to be a good weapon on maps like arid or mines. I do not have any problem with that.

true, and sniper on depot.
maps should not interfere with the power of a weapon.
on my opinion, only the AR is overpowered everywhere, it's the best weapon to kill and to run..

[billyumreal]

I suggest that the carbine shoot faster (.3) and damage less (34) with 8 rounds mag.
1.2 Secs kill, same as... lots of weapons.

Suggest also if will be a double barreled, keep the Shotty one, add the double barrel... or do the worse... put a double barreled that shoots normal fire (1 shell) and alt fire (2 shells), people will always fall on the shotty trap. :)))

I Ask: Why everytime I change some weapon statistic in the Visual studio, my game crashes? When I tried to do this in my compile of AC, the weapon stopped working! Any help?

[Vanguard]

In clan match, the carbine is too weak...

[VenteX]

I don't like the idea of making the carbine semi-auto because that would completely change the kind of gun it is. The carbine currently takes a good bit of skill and pacing to use correctly, and I like that. Nobody asked for a giant pistol.

Keep current carbine's stats, but make it ignore armor.

Slower to kill, but consistently slow to kill (almost always takes two shots) = ???

[Roflcopter]

Keep current carbine's stats, but make it ignore armor.

I would suggest also lowering its damage to 50 if you do that.

[billyumreal]

Man, I so have to tell you... Today's carbines are semi-automatic guns.

The last bolt action carbines were used on the second world war...
Mauser, K98, Lee-Einfield this guns were bolt action.

Todays carbines are M14, FAL, M4... none of them bolted, you know why? Because you must have a pretty good reason not to use a semi-auto (SA) gun, kind of been about half a mile from your target...

Fact: Carbines are a mid term between Sniper and Assault guns.
Making it SA will spend its bullets faster, thats all.

Edit: Armor piercing guns will Overpower. Noobs and Scavengers wont stand a chance.

Edit2:

I don't like the idea of making the carbine semi-auto because that would completely change the kind of gun it is(...), and I like that. Nobody asked for a giant pistol. (...)

You dont even know what a carbine is. You like that? I dont. So what? AC needs more guns.

[#M|A#Wolf]

The sole purpose of adding the Carbine to the game was to have a gun between the AR and the Sniper. I have no idea if you're right that Carbines nowadays are really now semi-auto, I don't know much about guns but if we would change the carbine to be semi-auto then we could just as well take it out, since it would just be another AR. IMO we should keep the carbine's base intact and change a few things to make it more useful.

[billyumreal]

Agreed. But it could be a little faster. (Lower the damage, increase the speed, keep the DPS)

---

Wolf, Why the game crashes when we change guninfo scores, then compile it with Visual Studio? Am I doing something wrong?

[Xenon]

Not sure if possible but carbine @ 49 damage, if you hit them chest or above it does a 1.1 x multiplier so if you hit them once in the chest and once in the foot it'll kill in 2 but if you hit him twice in the foot, he'll be on 2 hp.

[Nightmare]

If no semi for carbine, then the 50 damage/ignores armor is the other option. Still would get killed before the 2nd shot of course, but better than the current thing.

[VenteX]

billyumreal, please don't lay down the whole "you don't know ____" line. I hate when people say that because it sounds really, really ignorant. But, for what it's worth. I am aware that real-life carbines are all semi-automatic nowadays. Real-life pistols also happen to kill you in one shot :P

I simply am stating that the AC's whole paced-shot carbine is a unique gameplay-over-realism decision that was made in the right direction. If it was made semi-auto, it could be spammed, losing its purpose as a marksman weapon.

The whole point in keeping the fire rate while making it 50 damage and armor-piercing is that, although you would kill slower than other weapons, that slowness wouldn't get lengthened any by your enemies grabbing armor. Besides, how often do you land two shots of the current carbine on a moving target without missing at least once or pausing? It's not as easy as it sounds.

[Nightmare]

TomatoMan's quote was @ rofl's "Guns need consistent damage, hence full autos are Godly in CM's" post from before. :)
fast shooting shotty & carbine would give them new life. Shooting semi-auto still takes aim. :)
Sniper already has the pistol combo to keep on damaging the bad guys, so not touching that.
<3

[Xenon]

Tested for 2 hours flat, 1v1 2v2 inters etc.

What I've learnt:

Helmets have no place in this game period.
AR needs 20 bullets, and no I'm not an AR fanboy, it's just not good enough. (In survivor, it takes 7 hits to kill but you got 15 bullets) vs smg (11 bullets to kill but 30 bullets).
Sniper+ 1 pistol without any armor.
Carbine, sick as is, I don't know what you did but it's amazing now.
Shotgun needs a tiny bit more power, and needs less bullet spread only very minorly.
Smg, sick as always, looking forward to it being back, with a bit more recoil ;)

[Roflcopter]

Helmets have no place in this game period.

They are marginally useful which seems fine to me.

Sniper+ 1 pistol without any armor.

Then sniper kills in 400ms, AR and SMG in 480ms even at short range. Don't forget sniper isn't weak on depot or power right now and has many advantages over AR now:

• Has scope
  
• 100% accurate while scoped
  
• Amazing effective for chip-and-run since you get 80 damage for just a single hit
  
• Can use pistol during reload time for very high damage per second
  

Sniper is currently stronger than AR of SMG over range because they can chip and run. But if it kills quicker than AR and SMG close range too then it's obviously over powered. The argument that you might miss the sniper shot is weak since it's (A) something your enemy can't control so the best snipers will generally hit and therefore beat the best AR and SMG players and (B) because it's a single hit where as AR and SMG players have to hit 5-7 while managing higher spread even if the sniper doesn't scope.

Carbine, sick as is, I don't know what you did but it's amazing now.

Carbine in SVN is identical 1104 carbine.

[Xenon]

What is the use of helmets?

Sniper needs the ability to be able to hit and kill with 1 pistol because with armor, it takes 6 pistol shots, which is ridiculous.
Edit: How come no-one uses sniper in pretty much every map but depot, with a few exceptions, and usually the team with the sniper unless he does insane will still lose because he is a sniper.
Again though, this is my opinion and I know everyone elses is different^^ If anyones keen to test SVN come to w00p TS and message me :)

[Roflcopter]

It doesn't take that many pistols.

Teams play sniper on other maps (douze, desert3 and power just off the top of my head).

[tempest]

What is the use of helmets?

How about "armor"? It may not be that powerful, but it's 25 points none the less. And either way, it's still more useful than pistol rounds :P

[billyumreal]

Ok, agree with the "dont know ___" statement, not using it anymore... Only because you asked for it.

Still, as you think the Carbine with the "piercing damage" of 50, but you are not seeing the entire plot.

1 - If the Car is Sniper based, Why the sniper is not armor piercing? Different ammunition, ok, it can be, but sniper shoud be piercing first.
2 - With 1 shot every 720ms, Ho long would you survive to a guy with a Car? 721ms... But at what distance? Any distance.

I suggest to make more maps based on sniper behaviour (camping places, high towers, long running bridges). ACs greatest maps for snipers are: the Douze... and... ep... if.... forget it.

I was thinking... What if we could crouch a little more down? When crouched you cant hide, because you are still passing the cube in front of you! maybe a 1/3 cube lower.

[Xenon]

All helmets do is make AR superior.

[X-Ray_Dog]

The only fix we need on guns is only a slight reduction on shotties seeing as the splatters are so easy to overcome if you know how to aim ANY other weapon properly, and a slight power boost to the sniper shot. Otherwise the guns are fine and I don't know why in the world you would nerf the AR seeing as it will make the smg op and the smg stands up fine to the AR current version.

I hold my testimony.

[Xenon]

I love you X-Ray_Dog.

But remove helmets.