Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Roflcopter]

That's the idea i mean it's a sniper not a watter pistol what did you expect?

Balance should not be based on real life or your perceptions of what power a weapon should have.

besides if a sniper misses that first shot it's doom period

Saying "period" does not make it so. If a sniper is at range and in a position to move into cover between shots she will often be able to make multiple shots.

you need to learn to avoid that first shot, it's called estrategy something AC lost in the way of 1.0 to 1.1 but it's slowly coming back :)

---

Btw welcome back $hield :D

Don't imply I don't realise how to bait shots before pushing. It's also not called strategy -- it's a tactic, and I hope you realise the difference. Also, I think strategy hasn't changed that much -- but that's a different discussion.

The question I want to know is why not 82 damage for sniper? It keeps the sniper + pistol combo and stops the 3 medkit issue.

[MykeGregory]

i seriously hope the sniper does not become the new noob weapon...
i will have to practice my quickscopes!

[Panda]

You actually need aim to hit with the sniper, so it won't become a "noob" weapon. Prepare to be ravaged by it from medium/high skilled players and entrance campers tho. The SMG will be the new "noob" weapon. (Everything from the standpoint of the current weapon balance.)

ALSO: I would like to play some high leveled 3:3 SVN game which truly tests the main weapons on different types of maps. Meet in #assaultcube.

Another balance test Sniper vs. SMG:




While the results look like they weapons are pretty balanced, I have to add that I felt that I've played very well with the SMG (despite very low accuracy. I think I forgot to reset it. Is there a way to reset it at the beginning of each map?), I had a lot of horrible (and some good) plays with the sniper, at least by my normal standards. It feels like something in the SVN is different from 1.1 regarding the sniper aim, especially the transition between zoomed and unzoomed feels very off, so quick scoping was almost impossible for me and I resorted to camping or no-scoping, which made my game much weaker. Maybe I'm just stupid and it's all in my head though. Somehow it always seems hard to switch between 1.1 scoping and SVN scoping. Yes I know about the feel switch.

(Demos if you care.)

[Vermi]

Sniper should remain at 1.1 damage, maybe people will learn to stop aiming for headshots every shot and learn some tactics with it, in 1.1 it is still the best weapon to hold an area. maybe people could compromise one sniper shot and one pistol headshot, or maybe shot time between pistol shots could be extended, because 1.0 was just pistol spam after one snipe hit

[xxkid123]

i have not tested the new version (where is it anyways) mostly, because my computer is out of Hard drive and i can't download anything (i have a really old computer, 35gigs of Hard drive)

however based on the numbers , i think the sniper is balanced. what's the chance of you even finding 2 medkits if not 3? also, if they miss they die. if they don't headshot it's a pretty good chance they die unless they're fast with the pistol.
with the larger spread now you can't no-scope either (i'll miss that). snipers will not become a noob tube game ruling weapon because they work only at a distance, or really really close. what noob wants to be confined only to that? either way with nearly any weapon you should be able to dispatch him quickly. if your smart then you can easily dodge around and present a harder target. i'll admit i'm a bad sniper, but often when i see a target zig zagging i find it hard to get a good clean shot. where as someone bearing down on me is asking to get a headshot (aim at their chest, a larger target and wait for them to move down so their head is at the cross hair rather then the chest. click and watch them turn into unrealistic chunks of meat).

besides, it's only 3 more damage (i know i'm going to get screwed over for saying that)

[Hav0c]

You've just been screwed over :D. Lol but really, the 3 damage on the sniper does help when the pistol isnt as strong as 1.0's. Where its sniper BOOM, pistol bang, splat dead. Its more like, sniper BOOM, pistol bang bang bang, splat dead.

[Roflcopter]

i have not tested the new version (where is it anyways) mostly, because my computer is out of Hard drive and i can't download anything (i have a really old computer, 35gigs of Hard drive)

however based on the numbers , i think the sniper is balanced. what's the chance of you even finding 2 medkits if not 3? also, if they miss they die. if they don't headshot it's a pretty good chance they die unless they're fast with the pistol.
with the larger spread now you can't no-scope either (i'll miss that). snipers will not become a noob tube game ruling weapon because they work only at a distance, or really really close. what noob wants to be confined only to that? either way with nearly any weapon you should be able to dispatch him quickly. if your smart then you can easily dodge around and present a harder target. i'll admit i'm a bad sniper, but often when i see a target zig zagging i find it hard to get a good clean shot. where as someone bearing down on me is asking to get a headshot (aim at their chest, a larger target and wait for them to move down so their head is at the cross hair rather then the chest. click and watch them turn into unrealistic chunks of meat).

besides, it's only 3 more damage (i know i'm going to get screwed over for saying that)

That chance of finding 2 medkits in a clan match is very high if you know the maps half well (eg: in depot there are 2 medkits along 'main', and some very close together). To be honest the whole of your post sounds like it only considers public games (where health is in short supply due to high player count) and not clan matches.

If they miss, they don't die. As I said before, if a sniper is at range they can back away behind the corner behind them. This is common, again.

There is a smaller spread in SVN -- not larger. The issue is they don't just work at distance -- I am a bad sniper but can mostly get a hit every encounter I have. Good snipers even more so. This means a player will not survive two encounters with a mid+ sniper.

This breaks the game's key mechanics because good teams generally rely on winning two fights in a row to take a flag (that's because the second time you need to kill them very close to their base due to the 5 second respawn). Against a good team there is no real way to get a flag without killing an enemy twice.

[xxkid123]

yep, i play only in public games, never had a clan, have very little interest in one either. however, there's probably a good amount of people who play only public matches as well, and i think those players should be taken into consideration (not that i claim to be speaking for all or even any of them)

you can duck behind a corner and reload, but by the time you come back and fire your enemy is already bearing down on you, close enough to kill you if your not careful.

[Justice]

I don't know what everyone's is complaining about. So far 1.1.0.5 sounds pretty good.

[V-Man]

The SMG will be the new "noob" weapon.

;_;
Then those of us who worked hard at gaining actual skill with them will be called SMG noobs once again. This is going to be fun!

[x0v3rp0w3r3dx]

I think adding with the new patch a complete not in game menu are most good and more impactie than a little in-game menu :D

[flowtron]

x0v3rp0w3r3dx .. could you please take more care when posting? I have no clue at all what you're on about.

[SnowOak]

Hey can someone link me to this "SVN". I can't find the AC 1.1.0.5 SVN. I'd really like to try the new version out.

[flowtron]

Actually, the SVN hasn't got a version-number .. it's Work-in-Progress, the version is only assigned once we release it .. we're planning to release it as 1.1.0.5 and that "soon" - but as always: it's finished when it's finished. You never know what might come up that'll require additional time!

That said:
The following are sticky-threads in "General": SVN on linux-thread and SVN on windows-thread. You can also visit project-page, select develop tag there and possibly browse SVN .. but that's no real good for you to check it out - you need to download it. There are some people who use the tar-ball-download provided from that browseable-SVN, but it's strongly discouraged - you'd just have a momentary snapshot, once the binaries are updated again you'd be no better off than before. Use an SVN-client!

[Panda]

It is not that complicated.

You can just download the whole package here: http://actiongame.svn.sourceforge.net/vi.../?view=tar

If there is a binary update, you can just browse to the binary folder on SVN and get it from there, save it to your harddrive and then overwrite the previously downloaded SVN .exe file in the ac/bin_* directory. Example for windows: Go to http://actiongame.svn.sourceforge.net/vi...e?view=log and click download on the last revision if it's newer than what you have. Then overwrite your ac/bin_win32/ac_client.exe with it.

If more than that is updated it's probably easier to just get the whole package again.

(I know an SVN client is even easier, if you want to install one and take the time to learn it. Everyone can use their browser.)

[flowtron]

I said: it's strongly discouraged.
Dude - just saying "get the whole package again" should start sounding warning klaxons in your head - the internet does not have unlimited bandwidth, not to mention the additional time you'll have to wait to download the entire package repeatedly, unpack, etc. pp.
Don't do it. If you just want a single snapshot fine, it's sf.net's fault for providing such a "dangerous" link, but if you're really interested in the developing state of the project - as in regular/repeated looks at what's happening - that's what the SVN-client can do for you. You should probably select the trunk only, so you don't clutter your local repository with all the branches and tags .. then the client will download this for you once in it's entirety, each following time you just do an "update", which tells the client to get all the new/changed stuff - much less bandwidth and personal hassle.
Thanks for proving my prophetic nature, I'd only included the reference to the tar-ball download because I knew some jokester would suggest it anyway, thinking it was a good idea. IT IS NOT.
Regarding your "P.S." (Everyone can use their browser): Ignorance isn't an excuse in my book, and this is actually worse - since you know better, using an SVN-client as anonymous is no big deal, there's plenty of tutorials available too. All you need is the repository URL (from the "develop" tag) the 1st time and keep clicking update from then on - using the client as a developer to commit/branch/revert/fix-conflicts - that's a different matter, but not relevant for the beta-tester.

[SnowOak]

Thankyou for the link.

Edit: I just wanted to see how AC was developing, dw dw lol.

Notes:
Assault Rifle: - The Assault Rifle seems extremely powerful now.
Shotgun: - Frequently while playing the game I can get 5 kills in a row lol.
- Shotgun, at some points while playing, kills alot easier at long range than close range. Edit: Shotgun is awesome!!

SMG: - Feels really smooth and recoil is just right.
Sniper Rifle: Don't exactly know, I'm not a sniper rifle type of person.

The bots are getting harder to beat with each update lol

[Robtics]

I did not test with players yet, only with bots that didnt know how to use their guns. (is there a new command? /botsshoot 1 didnt work and I'm pretty sure I had the latest svn, sry if this has been answered before!)

This are only first impressions.

Sniper:
I think Panda said that scoping feels weird before and I think I know what he means. Is it that a scoped shot feels like an unscoped because its not hitting where it should have hit or you thought it should have hit? I had that feeling in my first tests with the sniper.
I tried it again after playing with other weapons tho and I did hit nearly every shot, everything was fine! I like the sniper rifle. A sniper/pistol combo is even better again, I liked the combo how it is in 1.1.0.4 tho, it was perfect but I think its good that the pistol is a bit better now (see Shotgun)

SMG/AR:
I think the SMG pretty equal to the AR in the svn BUT with the short range advantage because of the high rate of fire. It wasnt useless on mid ranges at all but an AR/carbine/sniper would dominate. The AR was exactly the other way round. It would dominate a smg on mid range but not on short range. I think none of them is useless compared to others as they both have their advantages and disadvantages!

Shotgun:
I am no good shotgun player but this weapon does good damage on close and short ranges. It was even quite useful on mid ranges, used in a combination of it and the pistol like we know it from the sniper. The better pistol is really good in this case and I think it will help many shotgun players to get a few more kills!
But as I am not too experienced with this one I dont want to judge it yet especially as I only played against non shooting bots :(

[flowtron]

bot-code has not been (significantly) changed from Rick's original port (back in the day); I only fixed up them not shooting a few days ago - I think the EXE already has that fix, but it's definitely missing the client-hangs-on-shotgun-shooting fix, only the linux64 binary is actually up-to-date with the sources .. and I still have to hear back if the hang-issue is actually resolved now, it wasn't ever reliably reproducable, but occured with a "good" certainty in a medium-sized DM (6 players or more).

[Robtics]

I didnt notice anything with 8 bots, dm.

[flowtron]

It only seem(s/ed) possible in multi-player, although the code should (have) behave(d) the same even with bots .. the newest code is definitely designed to not get into the infinite loop that caused the hang. Now it's *fingers-crossed* time.

[Joe Smith]

Hasn't the spread increased from 40 to 45 (1.1.0.4 to SVN rev 6030)?

{ "subgun", S_SUBGUN, S_RSUBGUN, 1650, 80, 15, 0, 0, 40, 15, 30, 1, 2, 4, 15, 40, 175, 1, true },

{ "subgun", S_SUBGUN, S_RSUBGUN, 1650, 80, 15, 0, 0, 45, 15, 30, 1, 2, 4, 30, 50, 188, 1, true }, // CHANGED : [reI,reB,reM] + spread

I mean, few people play SMG in clan matches right now due to its spread and an increase makes that worse still.

Also carbine has been neglected, while it's never played in clan matches already. If anything it needs a boost more than sniper (maybe extra 5 damage) but I don't think anyone would play it still. I haven't thought much about carbine though.

The carbine can be used in clan matches as a strategic gun, other than just rushing in with it around corners.

you can easily have 2 with carbine and 1 smg, (say it was a 3v3) carbine for the first shots, smg takes them out. Then slowly move to the base, then use the carbine as guinea pigs while you run back to the base. thats just one scenario

[Roflcopter]

The carbine can be used in clan matches as a strategic gun, other than just rushing in with it around corners.

you can easily have 2 with carbine and 1 smg, (say it was a 3v3) carbine for the first shots, smg takes them out. Then slowly move to the base, then use the carbine as guinea pigs while you run back to the base. thats just one scenario

Yes, it can be but I'm yet to see a single carbine player than can even come close to my AR.

There are reasons that not a single mid+ team use it though. They can get better results with AR or sniper. AR has almost the same range with far more flexibility and far lower kill time. Sniper has more range, similar flexibility and similar kill time even in 1.1.0.4.

In general, carbine is only used in casual games -- focus for balance should be on top level play. That isn't to say casual games are not important, simply that there is no real point in the carbine once players get skilled enough right now.

[titiPT]

I just finished my first games (1vs1vs1s) in the SVN. Here are my thoughts:

-the sniper is too powerfull. i recommend going back to 83 damage per shot
-the smg feels much more like 1.0, and that's good. i think it's balanced
-the ar is right where it should be, between 1.1.0.4 and 1.0
-the shotty is good, although the point blank should be increased to 8cubes IMO

i didn't try out the carbine.

these aren't my finals notes, i am still to try the SVN in 2vs2s and 3vs3

overall i liked it!

[makkE]

Joe Smith:

That's just the initial spread. The value there is quite irellevant, since SMG now uses the AR style spread code. After the first few shots, SMG spread is 70 (wich it used to be all the time (for every shot) from 0.9 to 1.0.4).

titiPT: Sniper damage is 83 right now. Also in the bins you find in SVN. I am thinking about 82, Roflcopter has a point there.

8 Cubes for point blank is something we should try for the shotty.

[V-Man]

In general, carbine is only used in casual games -- focus for balance should be on top level play.

That just means the balance should change so all the weapons are desirable in "top-level play."

[Joe Smith]

Joe Smith:

That's just the initial spread. The value there is quite irellevant, since SMG now uses the AR style spread code. After the first few shots, SMG spread is 70 (wich it used to be all the time (for every shot) from 0.9 to 1.0.4).

titiPT: Sniper damage is 83 right now. Also in the bins you find in SVN. I am thinking about 82, Roflcopter has a point there.

8 Cubes for point blank is something we should try for the shotty.

Sry makkE, but i think you may have meant to use someone elses name, i haven't said anything that addresses the spread of the smg.

[billyumreal]

I think you guys played too much CS...

CS gameplay still aplies in the AC game...

2 Sniper Headshots is too much!
I remember when I used the Schmidt sniper because the magnum sniper something killed guys with a footshot or legshot, or a whatevershot.
I think One big bullet in the foes head shoud be enough...

(For me, 100 dmg for the Sniper is perfect, maybe, 99 for the crying babies)

Even this way, sniper is like this, it is very powerful, it is somewhat slow, but the scope should limit the guys sight to its target, not see the entire world and hit the target... some like a fixed sniperfov...

The Shotgun! should be a chainsaw! Get close.. dead. Simple like that...

The AR, is almos ok, except it looses to the smg in close combat.

Why the smg should win the close combat from the AR, if it already reloads faster for the next round and it hits more from afar...

But the carbine is still surprising... how it survives? Not good from short range (too slow vs smg, weak vs sg)... not good for medium range(too slow again vs ar)... not good for long ranges... (too weak vs sniper)

Ok... I think i said everything...

[Jason]

CS gameplay still aplies in the AC game...

2 Sniper Headshots is too much!
I remember when I used the Schmidt sniper because the magnum sniper something killed guys with a footshot or legshot, or a whatevershot.
I think One big bullet in the foes head shoud be enough...

(For me, 100 dmg for the Sniper is perfect, maybe, 99 for the crying babies)

Even this way, sniper is like this, it is very powerful, it is somewhat slow, but the scope should limit the guys sight to its target, not see the entire world and hit the target... some like a fixed sniperfov...

The Shotgun! should be a chainsaw! Get close.. dead. Simple like that...

The AR, is almos ok, except it looses to the smg in close combat.

Why the smg should win the close combat from the AR, if it already reloads faster for the next round and it hits more from afar...

Ok... I think i said everything...

I totally agree. Counter Strike has a very heavy role in AC. Listen to this guy for sure. :D

[Joe Smith]

CS gameplay still aplies in the AC game...

2 Sniper Headshots is too much!
I remember when I used the Schmidt sniper because the magnum sniper something killed guys with a footshot or legshot, or a whatevershot.
I think One big bullet in the foes head shoud be enough...

(For me, 100 dmg for the Sniper is perfect, maybe, 99 for the crying babies)

Even this way, sniper is like this, it is very powerful, it is somewhat slow, but the scope should limit the guys sight to its target, not see the entire world and hit the target... some like a fixed sniperfov...

The Shotgun! should be a chainsaw! Get close.. dead. Simple like that...

The AR, is almos ok, except it looses to the smg in close combat.

Why the smg should win the close combat from the AR, if it already reloads faster for the next round and it hits more from afar...

Ok... I think i said everything...

I totally agree. Counter Strike has a very heavy role in AC. Listen to this guy for sure. :D

This isnt CS or, CoD or, Unreal T or, Doom or, or any other FPS its.....Assault Cube. Each Fps needs to be different from others, needs to have it own unique style, if they where all the same it would be like playing them all with just a bunch of dif maps.