Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Nightmare]

The Double Barrel shotty idea had a good amount of support, with a quick semi-auto two shots it could get through armor & kill in CM's, while pub noobs will be reloading half the game. Maybe the devs don't feel like doing that work, or like an impossible to balance pump action shotgun. :3

The Carbine can be killed before the 2nd shot by full autos, and it shoots significantly faster than the shotgun, has infinite range, consistent 60 damage....
and if the Carbine sucks, you know the shotty does too, in small competitive games. Even on arid and mines, etc. Splat or die.

[.JK.]

Disable splatter on noobcannon, change damage range to 10-125. Make it have 4 ammo instead of 7, and decrease reload time time to 2000ms. Make damage decrease moderately for low to low-mid range then drop significantly from mid-long range, ending at 5 damage.

So, basically, make the shotgun useless?

It wouldn't be completely useless, it would be significantly weaker, which is what it needs. My formula probably isn't the best out there, so I will try to give several different ones, all without splatter, or possibly with splatter at 4 blocks.


1. damage: 25-150, reload: 1500ms, ammo: 4
2. damage: 5-150, reload: 1500, ammo: 4
3. damage: 5-185, reload 1500, ammo: 2 (no splatter for this one
4. damage: 20-100, reload: 1000, ammo: 5(splatter at 8 blocks)
5. damage: 60-115, reload: 1250, ammo: 7(significantly reduced spread, maybe half or 3 quarters what it is now, splatter at 6 blocks)

Now for the carbine, the hybrid shotgun sniper.
1. damage: 50-70, reload: 1750, ammo: 10
1. damage: 65, reload: 2000, ammo: 8
3. damage: 50, reload: 1500, ammo: 15
4. damage: 40, reload 1800, ammo 10(2 round burst)

The AR really doesn't need any changes, except maybe make the ammo 25/75

The SMG doesn't either, except maybe a clip size of 35/105.

The sniper is too slow as it is right now, so maybe change the time between shots to 1200-1400.

The akimbo would need to be beefed up a little bit for it still be a good powerup, so maybe make damage 20 and clip size 20?

The knife should be the same as it is right now.

The pistol should be how was previously stated in this thread(I can't go back and look for it right now)

I hope I didn't miss anything. I do think that weapon values should be master server side, though. I think that it would be able to get a better balance faster.

[Ronald_Reagan]

Really, carbine didn't need a change. If anything, made a touch (not much) stronger. But not weakened (like in SVN).

[Boomhauer]

All the weapons are perfect in 1.1.04. Thats my opinion. We are getting too far away from fun gameplay in AC, worried about all weapons being equal and mundane details. All things arent equal, and we should just get over that. The weapon balance changes too damn much for someone to stick with one weapon and become skilled with it. Except for sniper of course. :D BLAAAAAH leave well enough alone!!

** the pistol going to 10 is alright, but not necessary.

[VenteX]

Yes, the new pistol is perfect IMO.

[jAcKRoCk*]

^^this

And I hope the new release bring a whole new players and maybe some of the old ones that leave because of the 1.1 chaos. Tbh that's all I'm hoping.

[Roflcopter]

The way balance is right now I doubt it. The hit-reg fix might help though but overall the game feels much harder to kill and more frustrating which is a turn off for pubs and also no good for clan matches. It's so hard to kill with SMG and AR that many fights don't end with a player dieing (but instead one escaping with low hp). The emphasis is even more on aim rather than reaction time.

[tempest]

The emphasis is even more on aim rather than reaction time.

Well, isn't that the point? You can greatly improve your aim through practicing, but you can barely improve your reaction time.

[Roflcopter]

The emphasis is even more on aim rather than reaction time.

Well, isn't that the point? You can greatly improve your aim through practicing, but you can barely improve your reaction time.

There should be a balance between the advantage reaction time and aim gives you. It's now at the point where players with superior reaction times are barely rewarded for firing faster.

Both are skills and there's a larger difference between people's reaction times than I think you think. See Human Benchmark. From that a normal range of reaction times looks to differ by about 200ms!

Don't forget there are other elements that, hand-in-hand with reaction time, are less important now, such as awareness. Basically you're cutting out the ability to gain much advantage from suprise which is a very important element.

[tempest]

Both are skills and there's a larger difference between people's reaction times than I think you think. See Human Benchmark. From that a normal range of reaction times looks to differ by about 200ms!

Yes, I know, and once again, that's what I meant. There are significant differences, but they're hardly ever due to efforts made by a player (such as practicing). Sure, a better reaction time will unavoidably by an advantage, and I'm not saying that's bad, but I don't think we should try to reward it.

However, I think this isn't just about plain reaction time as measured by that benchmark. It's also about the speed of "classification", i.e. how quickly you can determine that the thing in front of you is an enemy, and things like that. I'd say that most likely improves the longer you play, so you may be right that this should be rewarded in some way.

[Jesse]

This may be completely impossible and stupid and I apologize if it is but... is it at all possible to make a client with more slots available? Like if you wanted to fuse the ratio and geoip client?

[Doogum7X]

I noticed that nades have only been mentioned 2-3 times in these 41 pages. I agree they aren't the topic of debate most of the time but they shouldn't be neglected. I use nades a lot in conjunction with my main weapon as are integral into my strategy. The change in damage took time to adjust to (I still prefer .93 nades :)), but I believe nades should be 2 per gib. The 1 per pickup effectively removed nade spamming as we used to know it, but I think 2 per gib rewards those that analyze the situation and maximize the usage. It also incentivizes players to use them, bc there is no reason to at this point.

My 2 cents.

[DogDancing]

Woot Woot! Me and bill think alike..I agree with everything he says. ;)

[X-Ray_Dog]

The 1 per pickup effectively removed nade spamming as we used to know it, but I think 2 per gib rewards those that analyze the situation and maximize the usage.

I actually spam nades a lot even with only one pickup. I find them useful in enemy detection because whenever I can chuck a nade down a narrow pathway or hall and get that little hitsound is an amaing feeling :). Even if you don't get the gib, you now have a decent advantage as to knowng where your enemy is and if you are good at doubling back or even waiting a moment before leaving your location (Depending on situation) then you can easily take advantage of your enemies location. Howevre I have to disagree on a two point reward because I have gotten very random gibs before which I believe should not be rewarded in value unlike the headshot which is much harder to get even by free aiming noobs like myself.

[Stranz]

However, I think this isn't just about plain reaction time as measured by that benchmark. It's also about the speed of "classification", i.e. how quickly you can determine that the thing in front of you is an enemy, and things like that. I'd say that most likely improves the longer you play, so you may be right that this should be rewarded in some way.

You don't have to, this comes by with simply playing. the reason being the reaction time is not taking an important role anymore now cause a) the weapon damage is not high enough b) spread. c)kevlar. With no sufficient damage it takes longer to aim your opponent therefore missing more against someone who's strafing, with the high spread on some guns it takes a bit more to frag depending on distance, maybe a bit too much, Kevlar is somewhat a reason as a) and b) will have to deal with it.

[Doogum7X]

I actually spam nades a lot even with only one pickup. I find them useful in enemy detection because whenever I can chuck a nade down a narrow pathway or hall and get that little hitsound is an amaing feeling :). Even if you don't get the gib, you now have a decent advantage as to knowng where your enemy is and if you are good at doubling back or even waiting a moment before leaving your location (Depending on situation) then you can easily take advantage of your enemies location. Howevre I have to disagree on a two point reward because I have gotten very random gibs before which I believe should not be rewarded in value unlike the headshot which is much harder to get even by free aiming noobs like myself.

Exactly. You are using it as part of your strategy, whereas spamming used to be sitting on the nade pickup and launching them continuously at the same spots. But in order for the risk of using them (eg the timing needed to use the 1 shot you get successfully in a given situation, inability to switch once cooked or reload quick enough, etc) to equal the reward, it needs to be 2 gibs per. Otherwise nades will continue to be a dying weapon and will be used less and less with each version, effectively discouraging gameplay expansion. Notice how few LSS games there are on average on servers now compared to previous versions. It used to be fun, but since people generally see little reason to use them, why would they try to excel with them?

Woot Woot! Me and bill think alike..I agree with everything he says. ;)

So when I say that Cole is truly the most skilled nader I've ever played with, you would have to agree? :D

[Boomhauer]

meh i think nades are used about as much as they should be, and should definitely NOT count for 2.
I still use them in the manner that XRD mentioned: to find players camping or hiding out
ANNND in the manner Doogum mentioned: in conjunction with other weapons like a combo.

But Doogum they aren't a weapon one SHOULD use often. Who the hell gos charging into battle with a grenade in their hand!! LOLOL

I started one version later in 1.0, and don't get me wrong, it was a lot of fun to have triple digit kills... but it was lopsided. I think the 2 points should definitely be reserved for precision hits such as the headshot and knife. Its just too easy to spam nades and get a score that DOES NOT reflect your skill level.

[Doogum7X]

meh i think nades are used about as much as they should be, and should definitely NOT count for 2.
I still use them in the manner that XRD mentioned: to find players camping or hiding out
ANNND in the manner Doogum mentioned: in conjunction with other weapons like a combo.

But Doogum they aren't a weapon one SHOULD use often. Who the hell gos charging into battle with a grenade in their hand!! LOLOL

I started one version later in 1.0, and don't get me wrong, it was a lot of fun to have triple digit kills... but it was lopsided. I think the 2 points should definitely be reserved for precision hits such as the headshot and knife. Its just too easy to spam nades and get a score that DOES NOT reflect your skill level.

I go charging into battle with a nade in my hand all the time! It used to be worth it because you are right, it takes skill and a reason to go charging in, releasing the nade, and then wiping out the rest with a gun. Now its just go charging in with a gun, where's the fun in that?

They are definitely a weapon one should use often, and counted as 2, for the reasons you mentioned yourself. I know you weren't around during the .93 - 1.0 switch, but we lost a lot of great players due to the significant change in gameplay, nading included. We aren't going back to the way it was, rather if we progressed and made it 2 again, I'm sure the older players I've stayed in contact with would give it another try.

I don't really care about triple digit kills, and with how the gameplay is and will continue to be I doubt many people will be reaching triple digit kills again. Rather it's about the overall gameplay and I think incentivizing nade use would change the game for the better. It's all about scaling and adjusting anyways, so even when people had triple digit kills it was judged on competition. A lopsided pub game is a lopsided pub game, we still have them, and they are still obvious. Now I don't know what to tell you about a lopsided friendly, other than flags have been the sole determiner of a win recently. And in TDM its high risk, high reward with nading. Except now there's no reward.

Finally, nade spamming is almost non existent now due to the pickup number change. I think that's an awesome advancement and should stay. Thus is would accurately reflect your skill level overall. You know how hard it is to nail a person mid air with a nade? It takes timing and precision, just as a sniper hs would, and with the change in damage dealt nades aren't a guaranteed kill anymore.

[Roflcopter]

Grenades counting 2 frags is both mostly undeserved and encourages camping more. Same for headshots, which I think should be reduced to 1 frag.

And grenade spamming is still common if you play clan matches.

[Doogum7X]

Grenades counting 2 frags is both mostly undeserved and encourages camping more. Same for headshots, which I think should be reduced to 1 frag.

And grenade spamming is still common if you play clan matches.

I disagree that it would encourage camping more. It's subjective. I just feel that it wouldn't change significantly.

I think there are different definitions of 'spamming'. Nade spamming and clan matches, to me, are essentially mutually exclusive. Except for outlying cases such as during matches on Arid, which to due the layout and placement of nades, cause one of the few cases of nade spamming. Otherwise I very rarely come across nade spamming in clan matches or friendlies.

Nades for 2 frags Campaign 2012!

[#M|A#Wolf]

Same for headshots, which I think should be reduced to 1 frag.

what.

[Vanguard]

hs is today the only advantage of a sniper lol, 2!

[Vanquish]

slash = 2 frags
headshot = 2 frags
grenade = 1 frag

maybe some sort of system whereby a "combo kill" accounts for two frags. If you play with /hudextras 2 as I do, it will say "combo" on the hud each time you partially damage someone with a nade and then finish them off with whatever weapon you were using, as an example. What is the point in this? It just counts as a regular frag, so imo combo kills could account for two frags, either that or take out the "combo kill" feature as really there seems to be no point in having it.

[Nightmare]

You all play CTF anyways, it can be 200 frags and not matter. :3

With TLSS becoming a mode, it might be nice to give some more love to the grenades.

I can live with either outcome, just trying to be hipster, since this debate is like 10 vs. 1

[VenteX]

Headshots should count as one frag? Just no. Nobody has complained that headshots were overpowered. Don't try to fix what isn't broken.

[Roflcopter]

I disagree that it would encourage camping more. It's subjective. I just feel that it wouldn't change significantly.

No it's simple logic. The risk of pushing on depot against nade spammers was too high in 1.04. Remember on this map CTF is virtually TDM, good teams won't concede flags. There headshots and nades being worth more makes aggressive play too risky. The problem with everyone who said words to the effect of "just no" above is that they're not really competitive players. The only time frags matter is on maps where flags are likely tied, which is only really depot and iceroad. I wouldn't care about frags if it was judge solely on flags but currently headshots and the sniper in general just cause camping and slow the game down.

You know most of this games problems stem from two things, sniper players expecting to get good results for just hitting one bullet and high spread.

[#M|A#Wolf]

There are many modes in this game, not just CTF. In T/OSOK a team taking advantage of the sniper's headshot can be very rewarding in the end, just like in T/DM, T/SURV, etc. In my opinion frags ARE important in a CTF match. If a team plays with that mentality against any other skilled team and simply goes for flags it's very likely it won't work. Why? Because what's one of the easiest ways to get the flag from the enemy base? Overpower them in frags; therefore, make it harder for them to play their style. Which leads to the situation where you enclose them in their base and get a flag.

It's like saying passing [fragging] in football [AC] is trivial since the objective is to score goal [flag], when it clearly is important to keep a balance if you want to play efficiently.

[Vermi]

I disagree that it would encourage camping more. It's subjective. I just feel that it wouldn't change significantly.

No it's simple logic. The risk of pushing on depot against nade spammers was too high in 1.04. Remember on this map CTF is virtually TDM, good teams won't concede flags. There headshots and nades being worth more makes aggressive play too risky. The problem with everyone who said words to the effect of "just no" above is that they're not really competitive players. The only time frags matter is on maps where flags are likely tied, which is only really depot and iceroad. I wouldn't care about frags if it was judge solely on flags but currently headshots and the sniper in general just cause camping and slow the game down.

You know most of this games problems stem from two things, sniper players expecting to get good results for just hitting one bullet and high spread.

Yeah i agree head shots should only be worth 1 frag, they are so simple and easy i often find myself getting around 20 head shots a game. While we are at it the AR should do 50 damage a shot(so that camping is eradicated)

Depot was easily the most played map in my experience with 1.04 and yes people used nades more often, but it was still just as easy if you were smart to flag, it's important to realize that there will never be an 100% approval rating on the games balance, but simply saying snipers slow down the pace of the game is ridiculous, why? it's a fucking sniper(support weapon), do you expect them to charge in first and take on a team full of AR's? ask yourself this, if a 3v3 was played where one team was only using sniper the other team only using AR who would win? yes, that's right the AR's because it's an easy gun that works well in almost every situation, stop trying to influence the balance of the game so it suits your play style better. Seriously dude snipers are so damn easy to beat with what is a very OP AR, i applaud a good sniper who can hold mid on depot.

[Xenon]

In my opinion frags ARE important in a CTF match. If a team plays with that mentality against any other skilled team and simply goes for flags it's very likely it won't work. Why? Because what's one of the easiest ways to get the flag from the enemy base? Overpower them in frags; therefore, make it harder for them to play their style. Which leads to the situation where you enclose them in their base and get a flag.

same on d3, some teams on d3 lose on frags but win on flags cause of bias map sides

[Vermi]

In my opinion frags ARE important in a CTF match. If a team plays with that mentality against any other skilled team and simply goes for flags it's very likely it won't work. Why? Because what's one of the easiest ways to get the flag from the enemy base? Overpower them in frags; therefore, make it harder for them to play their style. Which leads to the situation where you enclose them in their base and get a flag.

same on d3, some teams on d3 lose on frags but win on flags cause of bias map sides

yeah...................

http://mysick.tk/index.php?site=clanwars...&cwID=1184

:D