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(28 Apr 11, 01:55AM)JamJamTheCalcMan Wrote: i do not see why people add blacklists to their servers. it's all just a bunch of horsesh!t. the only accomplishment personalized blacklists gives justice is how hateful we players are. remember, this is a game after all. we shouldn't eliminate players just cause they are hateful, teamkill or offend. some things are said out of anger but not meant. that shouldn't equate to a blacklist in my eyes. i say we leave blacklists to the pro's, who should consist of the council. i never use the blacklist bull on my part-time server.
Jam, in all seriousness, you are missing one key point in this whole thing: CHEATERS. You seem to have made no mention to them here.
Blacklists DO have a purpose. TBH 95+% of the TyD and NZ blacklists help keep cheaters out of our game. If we didn't need blacklists this whole discussion would be a non-issue. The reason we have a problem is because people are being banned from servers just because they are associated with one group that doesnt like another group.
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The council proposition will fail. Server owners can ban who they like regardless of whether that person is 'council banned'. Plus being an open source game, server owners would need to assent to the council blacklist or at least not dissent.
The devs could even remove blacklisting from the game but it wouldn't help since others would modify the servers to add the functionality again.
Everything is up to server owners. I recommend just using the CBL like we do on our server.
Also, I don't believe Undead is a political blacklistee since the allegation is that he unlawfully accessed another player's computer; the evidence and claim was provided by Undead himself.
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28 Apr 11, 03:29AM
(This post was last modified: 28 Apr 11, 03:50AM by MorganKell.)
Valhalla!!
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28 Apr 11, 04:19AM
(This post was last modified: 28 Apr 11, 04:22AM by Stranz.)
Quote:Make a council that resides over the community recognized official blacklist. THE COUNCIL WILL NOT HAVE CLAN LEADERS
Quote:Make a council that presides over the community recognized official blacklist. WITH CLAN LEADERS IN THE COUNCIL.
How could you run this council, if is conformed of a certain amount of members, would you have to create votes for majority if there's not a total agreement?
how could be sure that the councils aren't influenced by others clan leaders?
what could make them different from the server owners? as they are deciding if the bl's entries is valid for any kind of infringement against ac rules, and some of these is doubtful or lack of evidence, what kind of measure would you use to judge whether a player is cheating or not accurately?.
Quote:I like it just the way it is.
\/
Quote:Return to the roots - Blacklists are for cheaters and hackers. Only in cases like extreme stalking, insulting, racism and sexism there should be made excemptions.
isn't the blacklist currently being ruled that way?
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i don't want to crumble this apart but i have no real clue of why council group would be ever different of how currently the blacklist is working now, lets take in account that any decision taken by these group will be by his own risk. as many of the community could differ w/e they state. the conflict never ends. (someone have to lead the ship even if goes down, and that is much likely unavoidable).
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Man I really must think this is important enough to log back into these forums.
Anyway, I made a poll for some of the more popular ideas. At the time I am writing this there is about 33 votes. The main reason of this poll is to not prove anyone one wrong or piss off anyone. This is just a way to show what the community wants so that we can do something instead of just sitting here and typing away while not really trying anything.
Heres the link. Vote and you will see the results.
http://booroo.com/app/showpoll.asp?sid=q...7&qid=8807
Thanks,
Erv
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Stranz, to answer some of your questions:
There is no single, current, official blacklist right now except for the central blacklist. The popular server blacklists are being discussed primarily right now. Some will argue that these blacklists contain entries for personal reasons or similar things. While this is not bad in itself, these blacklists are huge, popular and used by many servers without much modification. Again, the central blacklist is controlled by the devs and has few entries, compared to server blacklists.
To address the points of Roflcopter, Stranz and some others: A council may be a more trustable source of blacklists if a variety of elected CLAN LEADERS and members are a part of it, and it might fix grudges(?). Disagreement will be expected but it is better than nothing. Server owners can obviously blacklist anyone they want but when a big blacklist is used across many servers, this has serious effects. Being blacklisted on a single server is usually nothing, but it seems that this rarely happens.
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Maybe not clan leaders, but clan advocates/ambassadors. I see them as representatives.
* Ronald_Reagan calls vote:
Create a UN for AC clans
1 F1s 0 F2s
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I'm down for the UN idea F1. Essentially it should just be a community recognized, centralization of the blacklists compiled into one file that can be edited by the council. Also I think the term "council" should be avoided due to rhetorical implications. I'd go for "task force" :D
The task forces' main goal would be compilation, deliberation, as well as cooperation between clans. Also the compiled blacklist could share a link where the TyD and |NZ| blacklists are posted.
F1
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28 Apr 11, 11:00AM
(This post was last modified: 28 Apr 11, 01:51PM by Hellspell.)
Why people from clans? Anyway, I wont F2 this council thing as long as I dont have to use their blacklist.
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Let's just not call it "UN," okay? XD
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Can we call ourselves:
Super Awesome Happy Fun Time Team.
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Again, why only clan members? People from clans are just going to discriminate against members from other clans. Certainly more than someone with no clan connections is going to pick on a particular clan.
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This must be open to all, free elections its the only way!!!
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28 Apr 11, 09:38PM
(This post was last modified: 28 Apr 11, 09:39PM by Lantry.)
The task force idea sounds like a good solution. ofc, no server owner should be forced to use it, it should just replace the TyD BL (or whoever's it currently is) as the "go-to" blacklist. This way, it will avoid clan affiliations; this also entails making clan membership a non-issue when considering who to put on the task force.
As for picking the members of the task force, I believe they should be picked by the devs, and that the community shouldn't have any official impeachment powers (to avoid it being a publicity/popularity thing).
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ok but i think the first chairman of it should be Godsmack after all without his willingness to stand up none of this would be happening.
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(28 Apr 11, 10:05PM)DES|Anderson Wrote: Ok but I think the first chairman of it should be Godsmack after all without his willingness to stand up none of this would be happening.
Just because someone put an idea forward, doesn't mean they would be suitable to do that required job. Not saying that Godsmack wouldn't be a fine choice, just realise there are others too who would be suitable.
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I can’t help but detect a slight irony here.
Part of the general thrust of Smacky’s outburst is that there should be no politics in ac.
Yet, here you all are attempting to get involved in the most heavily debated and highly contentious and often political issue of blacklisting.
Frankly, I was a lot happier when the clan DES was obviously separate and from the devs and the internal politics.
We came to play, as mates, for fun and part of our strength was independence; everyone hated us. Now it seems we’re the good guys and imo that suggests something has gone awfully wrong.
Just a thought.
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(28 Apr 11, 11:13PM)tipper|DES| Wrote: I can’t help but detect a slight irony here.
Part of the general thrust of Smacky’s outburst is that there should be no politics in ac.
Yet, here you all are attempting to get involved in the most heavily debated and highly contentious and often political issue of blacklisting.
True that.
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We already had a council, colloquially referred to as "core elite", that decided who was banned, who wasn't, and for what reasons. I don't see the purpose or benefit of creating such a group.
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Core Elite was a very bad choice of words first off, and it included a very small sub-sect of the community. If we'd had better representation that time maybe we wouldn't have run into these problems.
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I would just like to add my 2 cents about a council. First off its a very bad idea. I have spent many years in communities of various games and every time a council is created to "fix" things it only gets worse and is usually the downfall of the community. With councils come drama specially when dealing with younger people. I have seen it many many times the drama increases 10 fold because then you have to deal with accused favoritisms and real favoritisms and this and that. I think AC's blacklist is AC's blacklist it is not anyone else's to manage. If you have a server you can manage your blacklist and thats what you should focus on. If you've been blacklisted its a 99% chance you deserved it so get over it and go troll somewhere else. Now I am not an idiot and I do understand that sometimes people get banned unfairly it happens sometimes people don't get a long. You can't stop it. Council or not. Period. All a council will do is create an internal drama that becomes the focus and nothing else ever gets dealt with. Clan Leader #1 doesn't like Clan Leader #2's reason for wanting someone blacklisted so they argue and fight and then others get involved its just a bad idea. Trust me when I say these things I have been on many councils dealing with everything from css clans to a High Chancellor in vampire community on SecondLife. I would skip the council and just work on creating a way to comfortably display the blacklist. That is all take if for what you will.
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I agree with a lot of what Fiz is saying, especially the bit about "if you are banned, you probably deserve it get over it", but I believe that if the Task Force Members were selected by the devs, it could work.
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29 Apr 11, 04:59AM
(This post was last modified: 29 Apr 11, 05:09AM by Ronald_Reagan.)
Council should consist of clan leaders and non-clan leaders.
Forum Mods are already approved by the devs, so toss in a few of those.
Toss in a few "average joes".
Pick council members by nomination. 3-5 nominations puts them in the polls. That person can decline to run for council or accept prior to the poll date.
Council members should be voted in yearly to avoid "power trippers", clan debates, favoritism or suspected "secret conspiracies" that are going on in private.
If someone submits a request to the blacklist would these requests be reviewed privately, and the council decides privately who to include on the list? This would avoid flaming or lies that might be told by someone trying to accuse the person being submitted for BL'ing.
Mod Edit: Typos fixed, are you excited?
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DEMOCRACY!!
(29 Apr 11, 04:59AM)V-Wifey Wrote: Council should consist of clan leaders and non-clan leaders.
Forum Mods are already approved by the devs, so toss in a few of those.
Toss in a few "average joes".
Pick council members by nomination. 3-5 nominations puts them in the polls. That person can decline to run for council or accept prior to the poll date.
Council members should be voted in yearly to avoid "power trippers", clan debates, favoritism or suspected "secret conspiracies" that are going on in private.
If someone submits a request to the blacklist would these requests be reviewed privately, and the council decides privately who to include on the list? This would avoid flaming or lies that might be told by someone trying to accuse the person being submitted for BL'ing.
I seem to completely agree with this. This is a community game and should somewhat be run by the community. The blacklist thread gets a lot of posts, some that are just retarded at times, that I don't even check it. Having a council group could really fish out a lot of fake reports and even get more people to use the blacklist reports. What I see the current blacklist thread is is just a pile of random posts that people like to complain about at times and get whiny.
As for who gets to be in as a council member, I think being nominated, then voted in is pretty nice too. Have like a vote go on for, eh two weeks after nominations of two weeks? Have a total of 20 or so members so that those that may be away will not be conflicting. You would want the more active players of the game who have played it for a little while and have a general knowledge of everything. Clan leaders? Please don't make that a requirement unless you specify how long you have successfully led a clan or unless you want even more random clans to pop up. Have we enough yet?
As for reruns or re-election, I think you should be able to come back and stay in the council as long as you want saying you get enough votes from the rest of the council and devs saying you do a good job and have a keen eye of a worthy blacklist.
Overall, a council would be good, almost like a lower dev team or admins (I think there is something lower than that already so maybe even lower yet one above nothing) to control the constant flow of blacklist reports. It would keep down the complaints since there would be nothing to complain about, and would probably reorganize the community a little more. I F1
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