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community should be self-administrating
therefore the devs should have no input in the forum's discussions about the game, beyond answering questions, troubleshooting, etc. and only implement the community's chosen stance on an issue/feature.
am I getting close to a perfect society?
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OK maybe a council is a step too far, I didnt want a rulling class to be created just democracy. The real issue at present is the clan ban's I believe they are tearing this community apart, and i know many others agree. Can we at least go as far as to say that the Blacklist is for cheats and racists and abusers not for entire clans?
And as far as people who have been blacklisted go, i think there should be a way back for those who have genuinely made a mistake. My sugestion of a council was to have a group (elected by the whole community) who could judge these cases and cases where evidence is shaky maybe handing out 12 month bans instead of complete blacklisting.
I also understand being a server operator myself that the person running the server has the right to prevent players or groups of players playing on their server, the issue is if you use a blackilist that is used by more than half of the community to do it the result is far more reaching than a couple of servers. Again this is where a council could help, a blacklist maintained by them could be offered to all server ops, thus meaning if a server op decides to BL a clan they can but the BL clan can still play elsewhere as the BL from the council does not include the ban. This way everyone gets what they want, server ops are free to operate their own blacklists if they like or use the council one, they can also add or subtract players from it. And most importantly if you dont want a clan to play onn your servers easy add them to your BL and let the council list carry on.
BTW. This is not a dig at any clan in particular or any instance of banning a clan recent or past, its just an opinion. I once banned an entire clan from my servers so i know why sometimes it is felt its justified.
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(26 Apr 11, 01:57PM)Foo Wrote: therefore the devs should have no input in the forum's discussions about the game, beyond answering questions, troubleshooting, etc. and only implement the community's chosen stance on an issue/feature.
am I getting close to a perfect society?
Yes. If you pay us.
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(26 Apr 11, 03:46PM)DES|Anderson Wrote: Can we at least go as far as to say that the Blacklist is for cheats and racists and abusers not for entire clans? The problem is that, in the definition of certain people, everyone currently in the blacklists are "cheats," "racists," or "abusers."
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26 Apr 11, 11:46PM
(This post was last modified: 27 Apr 11, 12:35AM by Viper.)
Updatable CBL WITHOUT need for these other ones!
This would eliminate clan bl feuding if no cheats were involved. Additionally there could be levels of offense with differing punishments. Like real justice systems.
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At this very moment GodSmack's probably getting blacklisted by the people he's on about for saying this :P
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(( ____ \-^down with haters. GS FTW
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I believe that if Godsmack were to get banned for his opinion, we would be a very sad community indeed.
I do believe there should be some sort of change, especially with the blacklist, where people will ban for personal issues.
If possible, could we "regulate" the blacklist?
I know that while it is up to the server owners to update, I'd rather not have to scroll my way through "Called me names," or "teamkiller" (Where the proof was ONE accidental team kill.)
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The only political ban currently on the CBL is Undead. The rest are cheaters.
The fact that many servers chose to use the TyD blacklist is a decision made by those server owners. For however much discussion there is about fair or unfair blacklisting or whatever else, TyD can do what they want, and so can those server owners. We all know that TyD is not going to change their stance, so unless server owners choose to change blacklists, nothing will change.
People can talk all they like about how the blacklist should work or what should be done, but nothing is going to change without either influencing TyD or influencing those server owners.
As for the CBL, the only real issue currently there is Undead. So unless people manage to influence enough devs, nothing is going to change there either.
I am not picking sides on this issue, I'm merely pointing out that you guys can all discuss all you want about how things should be; it changes nothing.
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27 Apr 11, 02:14AM
(This post was last modified: 27 Apr 11, 02:14AM by Viper.)
Why not only have the CBL? In theory arent the cheaters banned on the CBL those same cheaters banned on the TyD BL? Minus- all the members of oNe, members of my own clan, etc.? (except undead of course XD)
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(27 Apr 11, 02:14AM)Viper Wrote: Why not only have the CBL? In theory arent the cheaters banned on the CBL those same cheaters banned on the TyD BL? Minus- all the members of oNe, members of my own clan, etc.? (except undead of course XD)
Server owners have any number of reasons for blacklisting someone. If you are willing to put in the time, money, and resources into running a server, you should have a right to decide who gets to play on it.
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(27 Apr 11, 02:32AM)Zarj Wrote: Server owners have any number of reasons for blacklisting someone. If you are willing to put in the time, money, and resources into running a server, you should have a right to decide who gets to play on it.
But why do they have to be so mean? :*(
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(27 Apr 11, 02:33AM)Viper Wrote: But why do they have to be so mean? :*(
I dunno. Ask pwnage.
My blacklist would be a fair bit shorter.
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27 Apr 11, 02:50AM
(This post was last modified: 27 Apr 11, 02:50AM by Viper.)
how bout removing the link to the clan blacklists from the thread? Many server owners see: OMG someone made a BL so i don't have to! and use it, with no idea of what it contains.
Seriously guys, how can the devs (the post is f-ing made by RabidViper's account...) sponsor those blacklists which involve little piss fights between clans. REMOVE THE LINKS. You don't sponsor the banning of those people who have done nothing wrong, TyD DOES.
Is this the kind of community you want to promote?
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I see this thread becoming closed in the future.
But in any case, very few servers are managed fairly, and even fewer server owners can keep their petty arguments away from bans and blacklists
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Amen!
Seems the AC community has had its epiphany :D
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I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!! only game i know :)
Best quote ever. Next.
I agree with Anderson. There should be a Council to run the Main AC Blacklist at the least. Clan BL's can be left to the clan. No clan leaders and no devs is also a good idea. A clan leader packs a lot of symbolism and is quite frankly the most passionate supporter of his clan. The chance of throwing around influence and bludgeoning players into submission would be a lot harder to do when you're leader is on the sidelines. I'd recommend a fair selection of players from different clans and players from no clans. That way everyone is represented. Any Council needs a format and a set of rules for it to follow in order to run efficiently. Maybe 13 players from around the community with the 13th designated as a Chairman. They could be the figurehead, the representative of the Council's decisions. They'd also keep the discussions flowing. Be responsible for providing a steady stream of topics and concerns, and generally getting the most current news for the Council. And no I am not recommending myself. Note Clan Leader ^^.
Even if as Zarj states that there isn't much point in trying to change things, at the least there will be some representation. It would be a step in the right direction to bringing the AC Blacklist some solid infrastructure. Plus the community as a whole would have an opinion. Players could even appeal certain blacklistings to the Council. The Council's decision would effect the AC Blacklist only, and not server owners'. I think it would truly be a noble idea. We should give it a try. What do you guys think?
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One of the big questions I have reading all this is: What "main blacklist" are you guys talking about? There is no such thing! People are free to post as they like in the blacklist thread, and server owners are free as they like to use that information. It just so happens that most server owners choose to use the TyD blacklist.
If by "main blacklist" you mean the CBL, then I think that an AC Clan Council would be a bad idea. Most of the entries on there (all of them, afaik, except for Undead) are well documented cases of cheaters. There really isn't much to discuss about it. Of course, in cases like Undead's, the clan council would have some meaningful discussion, but ultimately they would just blacklist (or not blacklist) players based on whether the majority of people liked them or not. And then we might find the council using the CBL as a threat against people they didn't like. To be entirely honest, I think the CBL is best in the hands of the devs only. Brahma consistently stood up to clans like w00p and oNe, not caring that they held a lot of clout, and demanded they removed the cheaters from their ranks. He was very impartial about it, and pretty unbiased, IMHO. Yes, he may have made some mistakes (potentially), but I have no reason to believe any of those decisions were political. People may disagree with me on this, but this was how I saw it (and as well, it was a clan leader who started the move to CBL Undead, not any of the devs).
As for the actual council:
Back when I was a mod, I suggested the AC Clan Council, but the idea was not very well supported. I still think that it would be a good idea, however, I don't think that (for the moment) the council should be given any actual authority to do anything. Rather, it should be a place where a few representatives of the community can communicate more directly with the devs. Perhaps the council could be given some responsibility as time goes on. Membership in the council should be simple: if your clan has existed for at least a year and held at least 5 active members for most of that time, you get a seat.
My 2 cents.
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I hold a very strong belief in separation between Dev and community. The Devs may reach out into the community. However with this group of people, it is best to make your own decisions (from what I see). Everything gets disagreed with, and even in wonderful discussions can people get hurt, and start personal attacks. I hate to see people resort to such ad hominem strategies. This is the community.
The devs from what I see, mostly get along. There are heated discussions (I would imagine), but for the most part, the bullshit is left out, and no one feels personally attacked. Let the Devs dev, and provide us, the community with the bare game-related tools. Many times people thought it would be great to have Dev backed server ladder, or a clan council closely tied in with big matters, however I believe that is way to involved for the Devs. You can build un-development-official tools and resources (TyD ladder is a great and popular example of this) without the help of Devs. Aye, pester the Devs for things you think are great, but really dont expect your opinion to get much more weight than anyothers. If suddenly your SMG gets snarfed and shottys rule the world, sucks for you. Adapt. Dont go complaining, ranting, on and on and on, inciting flames (and going to ban-land for arson), suggest it to the devs (politely), and move on.
Relating back to Godsmack, leave the politics to interclan relations, leave the politics to interperson relations, leave the politics to blacklists and blacklistees. Keep the devs out of it so they dont rage quit. This I believe.
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Ya'll are wrong. The Main AC Blacklist is the Blacklist Thread that everyone posts on for server owners to decide. Tell ya the truth shimmies... if it's such a non problem / not worth it, why don't you give us the chance? Let us have the chance to prove you wrong. The TyD Blacklist is ultimately flawed because it's based on a Law and Order standard of strict utilitarianism that is ultimately the most restricted and f***ed up version of awesomeness that can be found because they refuse to accept reality. Reality is called forgiveness. Try some of it. TyD might become a blessing instead of a curse. Not likely but hey, it's worth a chance.
Anyways, we're offtopic here. The Main Blacklist is what people post to on the forums. A Council would have the right to try and judge appeals / charges of a blacklist. The Main AC Blacklist is for server owner's suggestion right? Well then give people a chance to redeem themselves. All future server operators can add the old blacklist entries to the game. Whereas if an old entry has been appealed and deleted then it can no longer be added. Clan blacklists will keep the same lists, but the Main AC Blacklist can at least be free of favoritism.
The AC Community wants a voice in the blacklist. Let us have it!
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What is wrong with having several trusted voices giving their opinions about the blacklistees?
Why do you need Dev support to start such an AC clan council? I would love to see such structure and a united effort come from all of the AC clans.
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27 Apr 11, 08:08AM
(This post was last modified: 27 Apr 11, 08:12AM by MorganKell.)
w00p and oNe? Brahma may have caught a couple of hackers but he ultimately blacklisted an innocent player! So FUCK him and all his so-called contributions! He blacklisted an INNOCENT player RIGHT AFTER a period of MAJOR UPHEAVAL and then blamed it on a clan leader. That's called backstabbing revenge.
A Council of Players to govern the Main AC Blacklist Thread would be ideal. It would allow the majority of players to have a voice. It could even be made to the point where a player has to request the Council for permission to blacklist. That would be idyllic. The Council would decide on the blacklistings as they come and only admit the actual cheaters / actual HACKERS.
Vlad says clans are worthless these days... well let's prove him wrong. Let's join together and make something happen! AC Clans! Let's make AC the game it should have been! It would have been! As long as we don't ragequit, (A.C.S.), and as long as we love AC for it's true awesomeness.... We'll never surrender!
Reagan... who determines the trusted voices? Because DEV support is the right way to go. The DEVs created the game and ultimately I would want their support regardless. What we want is not a subtle union (been tried, ultimately gave in to the collapse of awesomeness, i.e. A.C.S) but an actual presence. What's wrong with that?
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ok MK, lets assume to have a coucil (if i counted in the right way, 10 members). lets assume the council decide to unblacklist some cheaters. why, i.e., TyD should obey? servers are of TyD, not of the council, they pay for them, so why obey? the have the right to do what they want on their servers.
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Hi all, I just want to clear a few things up then i leave this thread to the flames that will inevitably consume it. I fully support any server operator who decides to ban either an individual or group of individuals, after all they pay for the servers!
What i wanted to discuss was the BL and the politics it seems to have these days, when i started hosting servers i looked for an official BL, i found a thread and a link to the NZ list. Needless to say like many I used the preprepared list provided by NZ (many thanks NZ). These days its the TyD BL that is the one most use and theres no issue there as long as that is what they want. I think though there are a significant number who use it because its easy and there without too much regard for what it contains! I myself ran the TyD BL for quite a while unmodified it was a great resource and i thank TyD for providing it.
Now what I see is that maybe some of the bans I do not nessesarily agree with so I look for another BL, why cant there be an AC BL I asked myself, something created by the players not the clans or the Devs, a BL where a second chance might be granted. But how could this happen, well a council could preside over it, with support it could be linked from the AC site, finally a solution! If you want to use the TyD list, use it, if you prefer NZ use that, but know this there could be another choice a BL manged by the players for the players, I as a server operator would run it and support anyone else who did the same...
imagine a world where servers used a BL without politics not linked to a clan or to the Devs, a BL for cheaters and racists not for one time TK'ers or people who called you stupid!
Now i ask you all, You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Andy.
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Again, I return to my original point: there is no "main" blacklist. What gets put on the blacklist thread does not necessarily end up on a server.
Even if there was a council to say, "Hey, this is a dumb blacklist entry, remove it", they would have no power to enforce anything. Sure, they could run their own blacklist and make it available to server owners, but ultimately those server owners do whatever they want with their own blacklist.
All real power rests in the hands of the server owners. A council residing over a blacklist would just supply them with another option, and not be able to actually enforce anything.
I see everyone here talking about how unfair the TyD blacklist is... and doing nothing to change it! You think there is a problem? Go do something about it! Make your own blacklist and make it available! Heck, start a council and beginning discussing blacklist entries. No one is stopping you. Maybe if this gets enough momentum people will start using this alternative blacklist.
All I see right now is a bunch of people discussing how evil TyD is without doing anything to provide an alternative. GO MAKE YOUR OWN BLACKLIST IF IT IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU.
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Quote:GO MAKE YOUR OWN BLACKLIST IF IT IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU.
I agree with Zarj
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27 Apr 11, 11:02PM
(This post was last modified: 27 Apr 11, 11:07PM by MorganKell.)
Yoursister I was not talking about the TyD blacklist. Reread my posts thank you. As for the Council having no power... that's bogus. Give it the power! The AC Blacklist is mainly symbolic, because you are right, it's the server owners that truly decide. The Council's purpose would be decide whether or not an entry is deserving. As it is now, someone could just throw up your name and IP and "leave it up to the server owners", when you have done nothing wrong. You've all seen some of the ridiculous entries we get these days. Offensive? Swearing? Are you kidding? Banning and blacklisting a person from a game should only come after repeated offenses. The Council would have the right to examine appeals to blacklist entries. They would have the right to then remove them if they find it to be bogus. They would have the right to uphold them if they found it to be right. They'd have the right to make recommendations based on evidence for people who are trying to decide whether or not to blacklist someone. In essence having a Council would show that the game cares about it's players. The game want's their say in the matter. Why not let us have the chance? We can't effect clan blacklists, but we deserve some say over the AC Blacklist.
I reread my posts and OK I may have mentioned the TyD Blacklist up above. But if you'd bothered to read the second paragraph you'd realize that I acknowledged that I had gone Offtopic. Whereupon it would have behooved you to reply to the Ontopic part of my post.
Thank you and sorry for the confusion.
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27 Apr 11, 11:57PM
(This post was last modified: 27 Apr 11, 11:58PM by Viper.)
Right now what I'm seeing is a lot of raging and a lot of counter raging. This thread is not just about the TyD blacklist in any way, shape, or form necessarily...
This thread is about the state of the AC community at the moment. The current problem we have is that people are bringing personal piss fights into the view of the community in the form of these clan BL's (like TyDs...) that many people use for their servers since they either are too lazy to make one themselves or simply have no clue what's on it.
AGAIN, please take away the links to the clan blacklists as long as they contain bans related to private fights. Since you posted these links (again the post with links is made by RabidViper's account...) you obviously are making the point to us
that you condone this sort of ban and are promoting it to the community. Makes sense? NO.
Finally, all I see here is a plea for private arguments to be kept private, and for public issues to not be blamed on the devs. This is something we all should try to do.
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28 Apr 11, 12:07AM
(This post was last modified: 28 Apr 11, 12:38AM by Ronald_Reagan.)
(27 Apr 11, 07:37PM)Robtics Wrote: Quote:GO MAKE YOUR OWN BLACKLIST IF IT IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU.
I agree with Zarj
WIP by the way.
Viper, I see some rage, however many things being said in rage are actually valuable. As with most things in this community, you have to decipher the gems from the rage.
Edit:
This may interest ya'll. Erv (also doesn't have a forums account) made it for us.
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28 Apr 11, 01:55AM
(This post was last modified: 28 Apr 11, 01:57AM by JamJamTheCalcMan.)
i do not understand why the blacklist thread has become this clan-feuding arena where some simple-minded youthful individuals get to tattle-tale to the big-dogs and try to get the others in trouble. it reminds me how young some of our fan-base really is.
i whole-heartedly agree with a blacklist council, and would be more than willing to take part of it, if presented the opportunity. i take pride in making sure i do not offend individuals and also possibly help some along the way. i would find this position rather educating in how to run something of this caliber.
i do not see why people add blacklists to their servers. it's all just a bunch of horsesh!t. the only accomplishment personalized blacklists gives justice is how hateful we players are. remember, this is a game after all. we shouldn't eliminate players just cause they are hateful, teamkill or offend. some things are said out of anger but not meant. that shouldn't equate to a blacklist in my eyes. i say we leave blacklists to the pro's, who should consist of the council. i never use the blacklist bull on my part-time server.
little brain dump from me, and i apologize, but i feel this way, and if my opinion is truly valued, it will be analyzed and judged according to their position on the thing at hand, and not whether they like/hate me. i wish the blacklist thread would follow suit.
oh, and god bless GodSmack ^^
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