Remove acka servers

[X-Ray_Dog]

I started this thread because simply talking about it isn't doing anything anymore. There are almost a dozen threads about perros run servers and they're not exactly good. Everyone has had mixed experiences but if the general consensus is bad then well, something needs to happen. As it's been pointed out, servers reported multiple times as being unworthy in some way will be removed so lets stick to that. This poll isn't going to be a frequent occurrence because other servers don't generate dozens of threads over pretty good period time spans from well known admins. I set the poll for 6 days, if 75% of the votes are yes then the servers will be removed, simple as that.

I'm going to refrain from voting. 1Cap, take your conspiracy crap somewhere else.

Edit: if the votes stay above 75% for the next oh say 2 or 3 days, I may end this early. It's close right now though. As is "This poll will close on: 05-12-2015"

[Mousikos]

So XRD owns a megamall. Let's call it the Master Server megamall. Inside this megamall, there are several chain stores. Some are owned by the aCKa corporation. Others by the ESP corporation. Still others by the <> corporation, the .4X corporation, the |FaD| corporation, the |DES| corporation. Of course, some corporations are owned by the same guy. The aCKa corporation and the ESP corporation are all under the Perros umbrella. There are even little guys that own a little stand in the middle of the mall (Pi_Halo, Exodus, XRD). One day, the owner of the aCKa and ESP corporations decides that they are not going to allow, say, Fredrik into any of their stores and if he is found in any of their stores he will be kicked out immediately. So the corporation asks the megamall to put a sign in front of their store: No Fredrik Allowed. Word gets around that Fredrik had been ripping clothes off the shelves, dumping them on the floor, even coming in drunk one day and taking a dump in the fitting rooms. "Wow", says the CEO, "it is fairly straightforward to disallow undesirables into our store". He then sets down rules that nobody who rips clothes off the racks, throwing things on the floor, or taking dump in the fitting rooms is allowed. And as more employees catch customers doing this, their name is also given to mall security and added to the big list of troublemakers.

Fast forward a couple of months, and some legitimate customers have been banned for taking clothes off the racks to look at them and find the correct fitting. They are angry at first, but they move on. Other people are banned for accidentally dropping things on the floor. They too are angry at first, but they move on and stop shopping at stores owned by Perros Umbrella Inc. But at this point in time, the owner of the megamall is all like "Whoa, there's a big black spot at one end of the mall where no one shops. What's going on here?' He then asks the community if there is enough support not to renew the contract with Perros Umbrella Inc and if there is, he will kindly ask them to do business elsewhere. Sure, Perros Umbrella Inc can dictate what happens in their store, but Master Server Megamall can ask them to do business elsewhere.

[Alien]

Perros works hard to manage his servers well, he is posting in blacklist thread, building maprot based on discussion with other aCKa members and map makers, sharing his admin password with other clans and players, he is hosting his servers with good ping, he is using whitelist and blacklist, he spends incredible amount time online.

He uses aliases in game (almost already one year) because as server admin he gets offended very quickly. All AC forum discussion are ignored by Perros because there is no possible victory with his English. Perros is over 30 years old, he is friendly and very trustworthy.

Many current problems are escalated by small group of 5 - 15 players who are banned on his server. Ketar's blacklist is caused by PaulMuadika offended Perros and ketar was admin on server in that moment and did nothing. Perros nickname was often stolen and used in impropriate way to dishonest him as admin.

You are voting about servers which host good games and have aCKa clan tag what means something.

ps. contacting Perros is possible by email but it wouldn't be smart to unblacklist these players ...

[Mousikos]

You are voting about servers which host good games and have aCKa clan tag what means something.

Meh. aCKa servers need more admins. There are too many asshats on aCKa servers (vote abuse, teamkiller, etc).

[Marti]

I volunteer for admin,
I'm one of the few players that actually know(n) perros and isn't banned on his servers. I think i would make a great fit.

[BaDMonkey]

So XRD owns a megamall. Let's call it the Master Server megamall. Inside this megamall, there are several chain stores. Some are owned by the aCKa corporation. Others by the ESP corporation. Still others by the <> corporation, the .4X corporation, the |FaD| corporation, the |DES| corporation. Of course, some corporations are owned by the same guy. The aCKa corporation and the ESP corporation are all under the Perros umbrella. There are even little guys that own a little stand in the middle of the mall (Pi_Halo, Exodus, XRD). One day, the owner of the aCKa and ESP corporations decides that they are not going to allow, say, Fredrik into any of their stores and if he is found in any of their stores he will be kicked out immediately. So the corporation asks the megamall to put a sign in front of their store: No Fredrik Allowed.  Word gets around that Fredrik had been ripping clothes off the shelves, dumping them on the floor, even coming in drunk one day and taking a dump in the fitting rooms. "Wow", says the CEO, "it is fairly straightforward to disallow undesirables into our store". He then sets down rules that nobody who rips clothes off the racks, throwing things on the floor, or taking dump in the fitting rooms is allowed. And as more employees catch customers doing this, their name is also given to mall security and added to the big list of troublemakers.

Fast forward a couple of months, and some legitimate customers have been banned for taking clothes off the racks to look at them and find the correct fitting. They are angry at first, but they move on. Other people are banned for accidentally dropping things on the floor. They too are angry at first, but they move on and stop shopping at stores owned by Perros Umbrella Inc. But at this point in time, the owner of the megamall is all like "Whoa, there's a big black spot at one end of the mall where no one shops. What's going on here?' He then asks the community if there is enough support not to renew the contract with Perros Umbrella Inc and if there is, he will kindly ask them to do business elsewhere. Sure, Perros Umbrella Inc can dictate what happens in their store, but Master Server Megamall can ask them to do business elsewhere.

Nicely put!

[ketar]

Ketar's blacklist is caused by PaulMuadika offended Perros and ketar was admin on server in that moment and did nothing.

Not exact: I really wonder how can you know that better then me. He asked me often, almost ordered, to abuse of my admin powers for his private purposes, claiming that I should ban people he did not like. The fact that I was not obeying was driving him mad. I am not someone that like to abuse of even the smallest power.
One of them was Paul, yes. And they were offending each other from ever for what I know and remember. I even talked to both separately and asked to stop that and ignore each other.

He may be 30 but he acts like 5.

[1Cap]

Analyzing the events, which we have for and what we have to, I decided that my vote is F2.

This server is quite hard in its rules of conduct, yes, but that is a feature of this server. There was no breaking rules... 4sure.
Plus - It was important that the Alien wrote ... reread calmly.
Well, today I started a server and soon had many players in it. You guys can do the same.
...
A few months ago BoB servers banned all Brazilian players. This was a Mousikos and Slakie gift. Why you guys do not did anything about it? You guys are a bunch of hypocrites, selfish and stingy persons.
Perros doing what he thinks is right for the game. Nothing he has done violates any rule set. Perros's servers are cool and work well.

Solve their problems with him or not solve and just choose another server to play.

*Medusa is right too.

F2

[Mousikos]

1Cap, for the last time. I was not invovled in the Brazillian ban. Let me reiterate things for you.

1) I was an APPLICANT for {BoB} and had NO SAY how they run their servers.
2) I let someone host a ladder server on my VPS. I let other people host on my VPS and I generally take a very hands-off approach. I was also not the only person to host ladder servers for {BoB} at the time. So if you're going to name me, go ahead and name other people.
3) I specifically told you that I would try to talk with {BoB} about it, and gave you a temporary deban password so you could play while I tried to get Brazil unbanned. You subsequently posted that password publically on this forum.

So please, if you hook me in with the Brazillian ban, please tell me exactly how it was a gift from me. If you can't state why, please stop associating me with it.

[HoeHunter]

1cap this has absolutely nothing to do with the brazil ban that Mousikos had absolutely no part in. Let this die dude. Stop bitching at every attempt you get. It is over and done with, BoB doesn't even exist anymore.

[Mousikos]

And if it comes to it, 1cap, it's really too bad I deleted the PM. Someone told me in PM right before I gave you a deban pass to not give you one. I said something like, "No, 1Cap is one of the good guys". Right after you posted the deban pass, he sent me another PM "I told you so".

I stick my neck out for you. And you still think we on different sides? Let me paste an old PM I /do/ still have:

I do not need it.
Want to offend me ?!
Your clan has banned an entire country by hatred.
We are on opposite sides. Unfortunately.
And are your servers that are with this BL. Shame.

I didn't send you a deban pass to offend you. I sent you one because I thought you could change the way people percieved brazillians. I put my faith in you, this is what happened.

Edit: you know what? Let's throw in the ORIGINAL pm i sent you with deban pass since the server is now defunct:

Mousikos
Sorry I can't do more for you, buddy.

1cap2cap3cap41pac2pac3pac4

[vonunov]

Here is some past discussion in case you want to refresh your knowledge of this over time:

Spoiler

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-8230.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-7881.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-7884.html
lol http://forum.cubers.net/thread-7576.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-7510.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-5787-page-2.html

In that last one, I said:

"Or people can run their servers however they like, and if you don't like how a server is run, you can just not use it. Then the people who do like how that server is run can use it without the people who don't."

Of course now I've contradicted myself, have already explained how it now seems to be more complex than that.
In principle, it should be enough not to use a bad server.
In practice, it seems to actually bring down the experience regardless; what's the use when people just run to the bad server anyway?
So now I believe that we have to make a decision as a community to shape this experience.

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-3303.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-3264.html
http://forum.cubers.net/thread-3247.html

[1Cap]

This is all ontopic:
Arya;
You were in a clan that banned all Brazilian players. (your clan, your tag, your people...)
You offered a server to your clan who performed this ban. 
I declined the deban pass because I think in the game and not just me.
Your clan committed suicide and died.
End of story.
...
What do you guys want?
Let's take the servers like XRD and make him have to justify every banishment too? Show your BL and prove that you're doing right... is it? And giibed.me too? AOX?
...
Which rule was broken?
This forum is full of members who dont play AC anymore. They do not represent AC player nor the actual players who are there in Perros servers. Go and see.

[Mousikos]

You were in a clan that banned all Brazilian players.

Yes. I wasn't the only one. I don't see you naming anyone else besides me and slackie.

You offered a server to your clan who performed this ban.

No. I offered a server to the clan before they performed the ban.

Your clan committed suicide and died.

Not because of the ban. I'm not actually sure what happened to it. Supposedly it's still alive and kicking on IRC. I left the clan, and the next day the TS3 and website were gone.

I declined the deban because I think in the game and not just me.

Yes but then you proceeded to post the deban password everywhere. Declining is one thing. Imagine if there was a Pi server, you gave someone a deban pass and then they posted it publically. What would you do?
Point is, you're singling me out for no reason because with your reasons, there's a few other people you could have listed. I was not the only person in {BoB} at the time of the ban. I was also not the the only person offering a ladder server before the ban. So either list them all, or take me off the list. Slackie was the /sole/ person responsible for banning the entireity of Brazil. Don't believe me? You can go ask him.

Servers will be banned from reporting to the Master Server if they have gameplay-affecting modifications (without using a modified protocol), if they use unvaried map rotations, or if they are noted by multiple AC forum users as being undesirable in some way, eg. constant offensiveness/abuse by admins.

And, just like with the banning of Brazil, you can argue that Perros' servers are not fit for the MS because of the rules posted by jamz (relevant part in bold). Whether Perros actually abuses admin, or whether his servers are actually to be removed from the MS remains to be seen.

Edit: For the record, I play AC when I can and I do in fact play on Perros' servers.

[Undead]

Perros works hard to manage his servers well

and all of that is invalidated when he abuses his position as admin.

He uses aliases in game (almost already one year) because as server admin he gets offended very quickly. 

which is precisely why he shouldn't be trusted to be an admin. i'm glad you've realized that, now all you need to do is connect the dots.

Many current problems are escalated by small group of 5 - 15 players who are banned on his server. 

this is incorrect, and even if it were, it wouldn't make their accusations against him any less correct. i find it completely ridiculous that anyone is actually defending PERROS, but then again this community is full of ridiculous, nonsensical people.

mob rule never works, just discuss reasons for and against and make a qualitative decision

we tried

nobody "tried" lol. its always ultimately up to XRD, or whoever else has run the master-server in the past, to make the decision. i am only concerned because when you start deciding things through mob rule it sets a terrible precedent, and no other issue of admin abuse will ever get resolved other than one as obvious as the case on PERROS' servers. i think one of the key issues here is that people don't really care about admin abuse unless it personally affects them.

I started this thread because simply talking about it isn't doing anything anymore.

talking about it does do something, you just don't want to be personally held responsible by making a decision with respect to the discussion, either because it isn't within your capability or you're scared of angering the mob, or both. if you ever need someone to make tough decisions, then you know where to find me.

[stef]

At least, this poll will yield a nice list of people who think, that censorship is ok "if the mob demands it" :)

[stef]

if you ever need someone to make tough decisions, then you know where to find me.

Not removing the servers was a decision (every time the topic came up). And given the amount of flak, it also was a tough one.

You don't want tough decisions. You want things going your way. And ontop of that, you enjoy running a mob.

[Mousikos]

You don't want tough decisions. You want things going your way. And ontop of that, you enjoy running a mob.

As long as I've known Undead, he has actually against the mob. And if you actually read his post, he is hoping that mob mentality does not affect this MS decision...

Edit: In case stef needs a reference: http://forum.cubers.net/thread-8241-post...#pid163417

[stef]

I read his post. But "what Undead says" and "what Undead does" are two different things. He is here to throw shit (just read his other threads). But, of course, he's "against mob rule". And voted F1 nonetheless.

Ignore him. Saves a lot of time.

[Undead]

You don't want tough decisions. You want things going your way. And ontop of that, you enjoy running a mob.

yes, i do want tough decisions. you should stop telling people what they want. the key difference here is that none of you are capable of enacting tough decisions that are GOOD, which is why this game has gone to shit.
the power entirely lies with you. i'm just hoping that what i'm saying might motivate XRD to turn his brain on rather than rely on a poor method of gauging the right thing to do from voting, but at the moment it seems to be like the lesser of two evils.

I read his post. But "what Undead says" and "what Undead does" are two different things.

is it any surprise that nobody takes you seriously? what i say is exactly what i do.

He is here to throw shit (just read his other threads).

no, i am not. can you please stop perpetually lieing?

But, of course, he's "against mob rule". And voted F1 nonetheless.

i may be against mob rule, but i am also realistic. chances are that once x-ray dog is set upon this process, he isn't going to change his mind, so i'd like to at least influence this decision in whatever way i possibly can.

[ketar]

At least, this poll will yield a nice list of people who think, that censorship is ok "if the mob demands it" :)

Your mind is confused. Censorship is related to controlling communication (for instance, on a forum, closing a thread where someone expresses opinion you dislike).
This is not censorship. Actually, it is participation.

---

mob rule never works, just discuss reasons for and against and make a qualitative decision

we tried

nobody "tried" lol. its always ultimately up to XRD, or whoever else has run the master-server in the past, to make the decision. i am only concerned because when you start deciding things through mob rule it sets a terrible precedent, and no other issue of admin abuse will ever get resolved other than one as obvious as the case on PERROS' servers. i think one of the key issues here is that people don't really care about admin abuse unless it personally affects them.

I started this thread because simply talking about it isn't doing anything anymore.

talking about it does do something, you just don't want to be personally held responsible by making a decision with respect to the discussion, either because it isn't within your capability or you're scared of angering the mob, or both. if you ever need someone to make tough decisions, then you know where to find me.

I agree with you. Talking does something, if people is committed to listen.
I tried to make a talk. And I did not start it because it affected me personally. 
I propose this once again: we could also ask the aCKa server owners to remove all the ban and - for the future - use the admin thing fairly. The goal is not kicking them out: not my goal at least. It is respecting the public service offered by MS and keeping the servers public.

[Marti]

1Cap
This forum is full of members who dont play AC anymore. They do not represent AC player nor the actual players who are there in Perros servers. Go and see.

lmao 1Cap, the most people who post here aren't in PERROS' servers because they are banned there. Quite difficult to play on a server where you're banned eh? Pretty much everyone on this forum has been around for years, and saw a few version changes, how does that not represent an AC player? Also how do you know most people here don't play AC anymore? Maybe they just don't want to play with you, so it looks like they aren't there.

Are there some weird chemicals in Brazilian fruit that affect your brain?

[1Cap]

I started this thread because simply talking about it isn't doing anything anymore.

talking about it does do something, you just don't want to be personally held responsible by making a decision with respect to the discussion, either because it isn't within your capability or you're scared of angering the mob, or both. if you ever need someone to make tough decisions, then you know where to find me.
...
Of course is it, we all know...
Decisions taken in an emotional way. There is no analysis of numbers. A totally misplaced poll. 75%? Why not 50% +1? Why not 100%? or 80%?

BoB clan banned all Brazilian players, and you did nothing! This community did nothing! And now they are showing how much are selfish. And the XRD this taking the opportunity to position itself as the great coordinator of the changes.
...
Perros is totally hard on trolls. He is very hard in server control. This is bad?
See other servers that are fully open to cheaters play! Servers like w00p where Lexus is Fehh play every day freely. 
I do not see Fredy playing in Acka servers.
...
BoB's servers were not banned from MasterServer so Perros servers  should not be banned too.
If this happens you guys should get their useless rules and swallow. Because this is useless.
,,,
4 year! what's new? Perros is not more a donate palyer?

----ahhh, I'm done here guys. Your way of thinking is so wierd.

[Marti]

gg ignoring my post

[Mousikos]

BoB clan banned all Brazilian players, and you did nothing! This community did nothing! And now they are showing how much are selfish. And the XRD this taking the opportunity to position itself as the great coordinator of the changes.
...
Perros is totally hard on trolls. He is very hard in server control. This is bad?
See other servers that are fully open to cheaters play! Servers like w00p where Lexus is Fehh play every day freely. 
I do not see Fredy playing in Acka servers.
...
BoB's servers were not banned from MasterServer so Perros servers  should not be banned too.
If this happens you guys should get their useless rules and swallow. Because this is useless.
,,,
4 year! what's new? Perros is not more a donate palyer?

----ahhh, I'm done here guys. Your way of thinking is so wierd.

To be fair to XRD, I think jamz was running the MS when the "Great Brazillian Ban of 2014" happened.

I think Fred has trolls on aCKa before, just not as Fred. Also, I believe w00p's reasoning is: LeXuS and Feeh have served their time. If they are not on the CBL, then they should be able to play. Same as everyone else.

Seems fair to me, unless there's a rule about repeat offenders being permabanned which would be kind of cool.

[BaDMonkey]

BoB's servers were not banned from MasterServer so Perros servers  should not be banned too.

I'm not here to argue whether what BoB did was right or not, but you claim that just because the community did something wrong in the past, we should repeat history and keep doing things wrong? Is that the AC community that you want? That makes no sense, this is the present, not the past.

One thing that i can argue - and i think everyone here can agree with me - is that Perros is an abusive admin he bans people for personal reasons, as Alien kindly pointed out:

because as server admin he gets offended very quickly. 

As a result, many innocent people get banned from a server for no apparent reason like Ketar, or another example the entirety of FaD is blacklisted.

To me its logical to either ask aCKa to remove all the pointless bans, or remove the server from the master server.

[Marti]

as Alien kindly pointed out:

because as server admin he gets offended very quickly. 

i actually think he meant perros gets shat on if he plays with his normal nick

[HoeHunter]

the entirety of FaD is blacklisted.

Well perros is known to blacklist all the pros ;)

[BaDMonkey]

as Alien kindly pointed out:

because as server admin he gets offended very quickly. 

i actually think he meant perros gets shat on if he plays with his normal nick

hmm yeah i can see that now, but my point is still there.

[X-Ray_Dog]

A few months ago BoB servers banned all Brazilian players. This was a Mousikos and Slakie gift. Why you guys do not did anything about it? You guys are a bunch of hypocrites, selfish and stingy persons.
Perros doing what he thinks is right for the game. Nothing he has done violates any rule set. Perros's servers are cool and work well.

BoB did one thing to piss off a very select group of players. Their servers contributed more to AC then Acka (That's subjective of course). Their servers didn't cause dozens of threads and disagreements.

nobody "tried" lol. its always ultimately up to XRD, or whoever else has run the master-server in the past, to make the decision. i am only concerned because when you start deciding things through mob rule it sets a terrible precedent, and no other issue of admin abuse will ever get resolved other than one as obvious as the case on PERROS' servers. i think one of the key issues here is that people don't really care about admin abuse unless it personally affects them.

I started this thread because simply talking about it isn't doing anything anymore.

talking about it does do something, you just don't want to be personally held responsible by making a decision with respect to the discussion, either because it isn't within your capability or you're scared of angering the mob, or both. if you ever need someone to make tough decisions, then you know where to find me.

People are always complaining about lack of democracy, particularly in stef's warning points run with everyone. Not many of you agree with his method of "taking out the trash" but he stands up for himself. And look, everyone freaks out every time he so much as does anything. That seems to be something I want to avoid but this thread will set a precedent for myself in the future when something like this arises again. If shit's going to go down, I want to make sure most of the people around here agree with the decision. This will be one of the very few "Democratic" options around when it comes to removing servers because I won't do this again.

Of course is it, we all know...
Decisions taken in an emotional way. There is no analysis of numbers. A totally misplaced poll. 75%? Why not 50% +1? Why not 100%? or 80%?

BoB clan banned all Brazilian players, and you did nothing! This community did nothing! And now they are showing how much are selfish. And the XRD this taking the opportunity to position itself as the great coordinator of the changes.

75% because I want a strong majority to agree to remove the servers. If it's really pissed off as many people as the other threads acclaim, then prove it. So far so good, no? And I am the coordinator because all of a sudden I'm maintaining the MS and I'm the only one doing it. It takes a lot of time and if I have support, then doing this will become easier.