[Mean Height] vs [Max Height]

[tempest]

If I fix the mapmodels, would they even get used?

No, because by doing that the way you described, you'd double the poly count.

The issue lies in the fact that AC (currently) doesn't check the actual models, only the visual representation. That means you can shoot only what is visible and non-transparent (which is why you can shoot through fences, for example).

[Bukz]

Er, I'm not following you on the doubling the poly count bit. AFAIK, most of the models (such as the locker and air conditioner, simply need 1 more face added to the back).

[tempest]

Eh, yeah, I might have misunderstood the OP. I thought he was talking about people hiding inside the mapmodels (because they weren't clipped or somthing). Now that I read it again, I guess I was wrong.

[Bukz]

Here is the map file so you can watch the demo vern released above:

http://www.filedropper.com/example_2

[tempest]

Two things:
1) IDK what you did there, but next time you can leave the map file gzipped ;) Took me a while to figure out why the map wouldn't load...
2) My point still stands, it's the map author's fault. Almost any game (of those that do at all) allows you to create maps which abuse the engine in one way or another. If you show me the same trick on a serious map, I'll take that back.

[Bukz]

I uploaded the raw .cgz, not sure what happened if it didn't work correctly. :\

[tempest]

My guess is that upload site's webserver tried to be smart, saw the file was gzip-encoded, though it was HTTP's gzip transfer encoding, and unpacked it. Way to go, wise, and next time wait for the appropriate HTTP header. I know why I hate those upload sites.
Not your fault ofc, Bukz.

[Mr.Floppy]

...one more about the "newbies love this kind of maps"-argument.

Actually, you have zero proof for this.

How are you going to evaluate all the newbies who will get irritated by weird and buggy maps and simply de-install the game right away?

Besides that, I pretty much see only newbies playing ac_keller and way too often guys with all kinds of clan-tags calling votes for douze/CTF on 20 slots servers.

Where does this leave us now?

[Lantry]

With all respect, what does ac_douze have to do with this? Playing CTF on douze is bad, but we are talking about bad mapmaking, not bad playing.
Also, anyone can wear a clan tag.
Though you are right, there is no proof that "creative" maps are driving away new players, it doesn't mean that the map requisites can't ever be changed or updated. I think I made this comparison before, but I will do it again: as new cheats are found, the anti-cheat is updated to prevent them. Shouldn't the map requisites be the same way?

[Mr.Floppy]

Well, the difference between cheats and maps is, that in general everything is allowed, as long it stays within the capabilieties of the engine.

You can see, as this sort of discussion seems never to find an end, that it's real hard to draw a line for everybodies satisifaction. I personally do think that the current methods only lack a poly-count-per-area thingy and we're all back to normal.

Some funny crap has been with AC ever since and there's no reason to lock them away entirely, but to enfource a minimun on 'sanity'.

Btw, I didn't adress you, Lantry, with my former post. Just to let you know. :P

[vern]

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[Alien]

In 0.94 version was OFFICIAL map contest with theme "ship" maps. All that maps are in trash now. All these people who build his avatar by restrictions are disaster for AC. :/ If you want to do something for improving AC, create more funny maps for newbies, sub crappy maps by yours, it cannot be hard if newbies don't like them how you said! I understand for most mappers is important to have map in official pack, but don't let to leave that mappers who don't care about official mappack please.

It is so simple to keep visible official maps - "match rules", "official maprot rules", ""sorting", "categorization", "ranking servers" etc.

[tempest]

One way doors. Prevent spawn camping. A little out there yes, but any door animation is really out there. Similar to team specific doors and barriers which other games have.

The problem is that this won't work with flag modes, since in almost all maps the spawnpoints are all around the flag.

[Lantry]

I'm working on a map where I am experimenting with this idea; the spawn area (one of them) is too high to reach from the outside (excepting rifle/nade jump ofc) so that players can leave easily but not come back. I haven't finished this map yet, so I don't know what people will think of it, but I think this is the best way to prevent spawn camping.

[Viper]

My take on this issue:

While I absolutely abhor the play of the @camper maps but would never have learned to create "good" maps had I not started with "nooby" maps. When an upcoming mapper can't play his work he loses interest. I know I would have.

edit:

The problem is that this won't work with flag modes, since in almost all maps the spawnpoints are all around the flag.

not in gemas ;)

[V-Man]

One way doors. Prevent spawn camping.

LOL
Did anyone else think he meant for the one-way doors to block outgoing traffic?

[Mael]

One way doors would be possible if crouching didn't occur instantly.

[V-Man]

Elaborate?

(Or they could be coded specifically as such, but I'm a sucka for CubeScript.)

[Lantry]

Why not just make it so that you can't go within a certain distance from the enemies' spawn entities?

[Mael]

Elaborate?

AFAIK, crouching currently occurs instantly. Meaning, the moment you press the button, your head instantly drops to it's crouch location. The moment you release the button, your head instantly returns to it's standing location. The transition occurs instantly, even though the camera appears to droop. This is one of a few inconsistencies between what the player sees and what is actually occurring. Another example is when you are running, the camera remains steady while the head bobs slightly.

If the head drooped the way the camera did, there would be a slight delay between the moment you press the button and the moment you could enter a tunnel too short to stand in. Raise the floor of that tunnel slightly enough so players can still crouch through it but enough to prevent players from walking in through the entrance without jumping and you have a one way "door".

To put it as simply as I can, you can only jump if you are not crouching. Jumping takes time but crouching does not. If it took time to crouch, you could raise the floor of the tunnel enough so the player must jump and crouch in the air to get in. But the crouch delay would be too long; you'd hit the ceiling and bounce back down before you could crouch low enough to enter.

I did make a simple map to try to make it work and it almost does. It blocks about 90% of all attempts but every once in a while you get through.

[Lantry]

That is very elaborate :P
not to mention that it would just be a new sort of spawn camping where people wait right outside those holes because it is easy to kill people who are in them (see ac_aqueous)

[V-Man]

Aye, I can see how that would work.
If the concept were to be used at all, it should be hard-coded. Not that ac_aqueous ever gave me trouble there. :-P

[vern]

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[V-Man]

It'd certainly be boring if people took advantage of it by sitting in those areas for long periods of time to preserve their (uncharacteristically high) score.
I wonder how feasible my "spawn point preview" solution to that problem could be?

[D1551D3N7]

Lol here is what you do - set up a server
-create a map that you know camper@camper or rifle@camper people will hate and edit files so that they are "official maps" and cant be edited. Edit the names for every rifle@ or camper@

TBH those maps suck and are annoying but I pwn a lot so its ok :D
Once I got 100
You should masterserver ban people that way they would have to manually type in address and noobs won't know :)

[Mael]

"official maps" and cant be edited. Edit the names for every rifle@ or camper@

Even official maps can be edited.

[Ronald_Reagan]

You should masterserver ban people that way they would have to manually type in address and noobs won't know :)

The MS can and does ban people.

[Lantry]

The point is not to drive "noobs" away from the game; we were all noobs once, and we need the noobs to keep the game growing and going. What we don't need is for the noobs to never graduate from noob-dom and keep playing "unprofessional" maps.

[Viper]

A "spawn preview" would be great. You'd be able to see around the area you spawn so no killer gets you. The spawn clip sounds stupid tbh, and in your definition you can't shoot so how could you play a gema?

[D1551D3N7]

Thats an awesome idea Viper. I get pissed when someones at my spawn. You can play gema without shooting but someone said earlier that instead they wouldn't take damage only from grenade jumping.
@Mael servers don't allow you to update official maps and sometimes not update maps at all but you can upload. Try it. Make ac_depot upload to any server and it won't work.
@Lantry Agreed +1