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[Mean Height] vs [Max Height]
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12 May 11, 06:38PM
The real goal for adding restrictions to mapping was to get rid of the worst maps. It's been accomplished. The collateral loss from that is evident in the weeping and wailing of anti-restriction people. Adding more restrictions may get rid of more undesirable maps, but the collateral loss would be larger, and the anti-restriction people would weep more loudly and irritatingly.
A solution for the interim, in my opinion, would be for server owners to block specific maps from being voted in. 
Who are that "anti-restriction people", tell me ? Me and some leavers ? Come on, wake up. :) Be free to realize your imagination for the game, you will see the effect in the future. I will sit and be watching. It is pity your realization limits others but they are the BAD, right ? :)
The real effect against crappy maps is done by sorting server browser, i suggested it many times in the past and also with categorized browser. It is pity you did restrictions (lost many players) and then did that sorting. Now you can restrict more and more, it will not have next effects for custom maps.
12 May 11, 08:05PM
You can classify maps to good and bad but avoid only good maps ? :) And what is good map? Everybody would tell something other. The fact you can create shit map in 3 hours and you can test it with friends is more stronger than your imagination for good map. It is fact we all tried.
The solution for your problem is extremely simple: just DO NOT play on those f***ing maps!
Of course we could add additional filters, like standard deviation in ceiling height or something like that, but what would it be good for? Those idiots would still find a way around it, and many people would be outraged (including me ;) ). 
12 May 11, 08:23PM
12 May 11, 09:33PM
(12 May 11, 06:38PM)V-Man Wrote: The collateral loss from that is evident in the weeping and wailing of anti-restriction people. I disagree; I have yet to see one good map that is no longer playable because of the map restrictions. And I don't mean "The best map you can't play on", I mean a good map. 
Pfff... some never get tired.
The current mininum map quality standards are just fine. There's no reason to push this whole thing much further. Actually, the limitations are there to "enforce" appropriate use of the engine and to get rid of the worst crap from a gameplay point of view. I agree with V-man, this is accomplished. (12 May 11, 09:19PM)vern Wrote: I'm all for custom maps. Not the maps that have miss used mapmodels that allow players to shoot through imaginary walls. It needs to be addressed. It is not good for the game at all. It has been adressed. That's why the limitations are there. I'm afraid you're just a little late. Things used to be way worse during the 0.94 version, imo. This isn't going anywhere, except for its driving me mad reading the nonsense of some guy confusing mapping with art... Therefore and for the sake of peace. Closed. 
13 May 11, 12:19AM
Reopened.
I dont see too much reason not to have this restriction. It can be really big number, but a map over 200 cubes high isn't art nor a good map. Those camper maps look very ugly in my opinion.
And i don't see too much reasons to have them. The hated map shouldn't influence next possible maps in the game. You can create the index of quality counted by your parameters and sort them. But why do it if you can ban them and all maps which don't pass. You lost many maps from previous versions which aren't bad.
I have seen TyD,40+ custom server at the bottom of list but they haven't bad maps.
13 May 11, 01:34AM
"the bottom of list" is determined by how you sort them, and if you have it send servers running a custom map to the bottom or not. I believe the requisites fulfilled their duty, but, like anti-cheat, must be improved occasionally. Including a max limit along with the max average seems like a good way to do this, though the max limit should be much higher.
Like I said before, I have yet to see one genuinely good map that is blocked by the restrictions.
13 May 11, 02:00AM
Lantry, there are plenty. However those are mostly because of pickups. Also, newer maps are worked around these.
13 May 11, 04:12AM
(12 May 11, 07:46PM)vern Wrote: Limiting people who use mapmodels incorrectly is Bad? I'd like to see genuine answers to these questions. While I feel that the current requisites are properly performing their intended purpose (as Mr.Floppy stated, to rope maps into the intended scope of game engine usage), I would like to see this one-way shooting nonsense disposed of summarily.
13 May 11, 08:40AM
Quote:Limiting people who use mapmodels incorrectly is Bad?If you change texture and hide the part of mapmodel, you can create imagination of other model, it is improvisation, for example with tree - if you lower cube under tree you can create bush etc. Quote:Limiting people who cheat the system? Thats Bad?cheat is for me improvisation, these hacks with textures sub windows and doors. Cube is just limited... Quote:Wanting to see who is shooting you? Thats Bad?sometimes it is used idiotic, but it doesn't mean to suppress it or take it as a disaster (12 May 11, 07:46PM)vern Wrote: Limiting people who use mapmodels incorrectly is Bad? Once again, that's entirely the map author's fault. You can easily spot those maps (they all have at least 5 exclamation marks in their name) and avoid them. 
13 May 11, 10:52AM
vern's first post: By George! I like the idea.
tempest: Although you could definitely avoid the maps, when someone comes onto a server and votes it in (and passes), it's highly annoying. This could obviously be fixed by server owners blocking certain maps and a person just not playing on the sort of servers where this is likely, but unless voting is disabled (relying on an excellent maprot) or effort is made to ensure that crap maps are blocked, we may still have this problem. The introduction of an absolute maximum height could (hopefully) stop the production of "@camper"s and similar maps. This sort of map also tends to invite cheaters (and maybe even hackers :P) into an environment where nobody really seems to know what to do except get angry and give up on AssaultCube. The cheaters get away with it too in many cases.
Look, people are always going to be looking for and finding ways to bend any rules you set. If they don't want to follow them, they won't.
I think that the server owner should be able to decide how tight they want their restrictions to be, so that the people who want to be "artistic" (in the loosest sense of the term :P) can have their own servers, and the people who want good gameplay can play on servers with tighter restrictions. Yes, people will be able to make maps to fit an individual servers restrictions, but the server owner will be able to ban that map or adjust the requisites for that server. Another good solution, possibly used in conjunction with the previous idea, would be an upload wl/bl, which would control who can upload a map to a server.
14 May 11, 08:35AM
i use the word "art" because it expresses the freedom in the mind. You can do a shit on paper and it can be still "art". The opposite is "skill", it is something you can measure or compare.
The official branch in mapping should be focused on "skills" but the custom on "art". Hence the restriction should be for minimal "skills" but not to reduces "art". AC contains free server maintenance and coop mode it means you can create whatever shit. But ofc there are also players and these shouldn't be limited. But the solution isn't limit the "art" but other parameters related to the players. (masterserver, etc.)
14 May 11, 08:45AM
The problem here (for the most part) is "incomplete" mapmodels that people can "one-way shoot" through. As well as people abusing an engine that was never meant for such "art". Disagree with me all you want, but the cube engine was never meant to handle maps that are 160+ cubes tall - that suffer from rendering artifacts because even "/minlod 250" won't prevent them on such maps.
Being shot by players you have no chance of seeing or shooting back at - is not "fun" or "art" - it's frustrating to most new players that frequent these types of maps, I imagine. The restrictions are not an attempt to stifle this alleged "art" - it's an attempt to improve the overall quality of maps that you see being played on servers that are listed on the public masterserver. This "art" is not limited right now anyways - as you can tell by such crap maps passing the requisites.
14 May 11, 09:14AM
The newbies love these types of maps, the important is visible official path. I have seen some maps where it is correctly.
The limitation of engine had to be set at the beginning and not after N years of developing maps.
14 May 11, 09:17AM
The (technical) limitations have always been there, but now map authors are (theoretically) forced to respect them.
14 May 11, 06:34PM
(14 May 11, 06:05PM)vern Wrote: If I fix the mapmodels, would they even get used? The fastest way to get something done is to do it yourself. But like I said before, people will always find ways to bend the rules. I think that we should start banning players who upload maps like this. After all, it is cheating because it uses the client in a way in which it's not supposed to be used, it is rude to the mappers who actually put time into learning how to map, and it is disrespectful to the devs. Nobody is going to get it, so I am going to clearly state that that last paragraph was kind of a joke. However, I agree with vern, something should be done. I personally think my previously stated idea is the way to go, but don't we all? |
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