Is this forum's moderation failing?

[Undead]

I think many guys have or had this feeling of injustice here, and that explains flaming and trolling.

dead on.

[Luc@s]

I think many guys have or had this feeling of injustice here, and that explains flaming and trolling.

dead on.

na you are just a child

[Apollo{TyD}]

The fact is, moderation isn't fair, remember when NEF hacked Xu forums. {TyD} could control everything that was said, on TyD forums and AC forums. Some posts were deleted, others were hidden. I'm not saying "TyD is responsible of hacking", but they acted unfairly with Xu. And if they wanted no shit to be said, they had to make something public with some explanation, where this could be discussed, but they didn't, that's why the shit happen.

Why am I talking about this in particular ? Because it's always the same : when something isn't good for moderation's image, it gets deleted/hidden, and some moderators act for them and their mates, not for the forum.

I think many guys have or had this feeling of injustice here, and that explains flaming and trolling.

Must have something to do with posts like this one, when people opened their mouth without knowing the details. The same people are now mourning that they lost their playground for a while. I'm pretty sure that in any other case we would have to deal with much more flaming, trolling and offending to this time then which wouldn't help ExileUnit, TyD!, Nef and at least the rest of us. The past has shown that a lot - and no one can deny, that he has a counterpart in this thread to whom he has unplacable feelings since a while.

[Luc@s]

The fact is, moderation isn't fair, remember when NEF hacked Xu forums. {TyD} could control everything that was said, on TyD forums and AC forums. Some posts were deleted, others were hidden. I'm not saying "TyD is responsible of hacking", but they acted unfairly with Xu. And if they wanted no shit to be said, they had to make something public with some explanation, where this could be discussed, but they didn't, that's why the shit happen.

Why am I talking about this in particular ? Because it's always the same : when something isn't good for moderation's image, it gets deleted/hidden, and some moderators act for them and their mates, not for the forum.

I think many guys have or had this feeling of injustice here, and that explains flaming and trolling.

Must have something to do with posts like this one, when people opened their mouth without knowing the details. The same people are now mourning that they lost their playground for a while. I'm pretty sure that in any other case we would have to deal with much more flaming, trolling and offending to this time then which wouldn't help ExileUnit, TyD!, Nef and at least the rest of us. The past has shown that a lot - and no one can deny, that he has a counterpart in this thread to whom he has unplacable feelings since a while.

How can we know details when your policy was to hide everything ?

That's just an example of the global attitude of moderation. You can speak as much as you want, everybody knows it, actual policy is unfair (forum moderated with no rules, by 2 main clans, random bans, ...). Now it's time to react and say : yes shit happened, but it won't happen anymore. And as pakit said, I think no clan players for moderation is a good thing.

[titiPT]

That is what I took it as and so did Titi who is Portugese

He did?

Well, that's been cleared out now. Also, if I do happen to offend someone, you can always tell Zarj, zabi or Plague that JMM is being a bully.

I will mosty certainly do that ;-) But the next time you want to make of portuguese speakers, don't.

[Drakas]

The fact is, moderation isn't fair, remember when NEF hacked Xu forums. {TyD} could control everything that was said, on TyD forums and AC forums. Some posts were deleted, others were hidden. I'm not saying "TyD is responsible of hacking", but they acted unfairly with Xu. And if they wanted no shit to be said, they had to make something public with some explanation, where this could be discussed, but they didn't, that's why the shit happen.

Why am I talking about this in particular ? Because it's always the same : when something isn't good for moderation's image, it gets deleted/hidden, and some moderators act for them and their mates, not for the forum.

I think many guys have or had this feeling of injustice here, and that explains flaming and trolling.

Luc@s, this was briefly explained and discussed already. Don't see why you need to start bashing... provide a solution maybe?

You'd at once want the forum not to discuss issues of individuals/clans, but at the same time you whine how it was deleted. There is no solution from what you've posted.

Must have something to do with posts like this one, when people opened their mouth without knowing the details. The same people are now mourning that they lost their playground for a while. I'm pretty sure that in any other case we would have to deal with much more flaming, trolling and offending to this time then which wouldn't help ExileUnit, TyD!, Nef and at least the rest of us. The past has shown that a lot - and no one can deny, that he has a counterpart in this thread to whom he has unplacable feelings since a while.

Looks like this thread is already losing its grips:
1. People just don't read and post in response to last thing they saw.
2. People who don't know details butt in (goes back to 1., since I mentioned such a problem already).
3. People who only want to bash "the dark side".

What is also happening, as is with this thread, or, ironically, this one is that people would sway things off-topic very quickly, and this has happened quite a lot of times already. A person who does that usually would not be with the idea of creating a thread on the topic. Imagine if Panda opened a thread about the issue instead of posting in the topic... it would seem more of a singling out than anything. Same way, I myself should've PMed BunnySoul instead of changing the topic of the thread..

One thing I can think of is the forum functionality of splitting threads, where you move all the stuff disrupting a topic out. For moderators, it would be quite a lot of work, but I think this has built up over time so much that there is no consistency in discussion any more...

Ideas on solving this are welcome.

How can we know details when your policy was to hide everything ?

An incident happened, some discussion in private places happened, a few blacklist entries with certain links were made. They were removed. Then this sprawled out into a bigger dispute, creating only accusations.

Should all the details normally be published? No. But once those entries were removed, that changed to a Yes. That's where the mistake was made. Everything after that mistake of the mods here was just one big mess and actions based on moderator powers should be explained then.

That's just an example of the global attitude of moderation. You can speak as much as you want, everybody knows it, actual policy is unfair (forum moderated with no rules, by 2 main clans, random bans, ...). Now it's time to react and say : yes shit happened, but it won't happen anymore. And as pakit said, I think no clan players for moderation is a good thing.

I believe the issue of "moderated by 2 main clans" was already discussed... you're just bashing at it from a bad angle and giving nothing...

There's no need to be so redundant in this, seriously. Apollo already acknowledged the issue...

[Zarjio]

This forum is not just being moderated by two main clans.
Besides the devs, the TyDers, and DESers, there is also a |BC| mod, an #M|A# mod, and a U| mod. As well, two of the devs are members of BCFH| and w00p|.

[Luc@s]

blabla

First, as I said it was an example, Apollo choosed to continue to talk about it. Read carefully.

Then, I guess you were not concerned by that (were you already random banned ?) Seeing your post, I guess you don't know what we can feel in this situation.

Then, I'm not of the one who thinks that it's better to hide everything to everybody - question of point of view..;

oh and

I believe the issue of "moderated by 2 main clans" was already discussed... you're just bashing at it from a bad angle and giving nothing...

That's what I feel, can't I give my feeling ?

[ElCrema]

I couldn't agree with Drakas more! Its very hard to have a decent discussion here when ppl just keeping going on and on and on over the same subject, even when its relevance was exhausted.
Mistakes were made, the parts involved acknowledged those mistakes, now we are here to try to keep them from happening again.

Some forum rules are in the making (much similar from the ones of the old vanilla forum) and imo the enforcement of those rules should be the next step in the discussion, anything else, has no place here, so please, lets stay on topic or keep out keyboards shut.

[Mr.Floppy]

I couldn't agree with Drakas more! Its very hard to have a decent discussion here when ppl just keeping going on and on and on over the same subject, even when its relevance was exhausted.

Exactly this is one reason why I have closed a lot of threads lately.

On topic. Sure, the moderation isn't perfect at the moment as there's no common ground to judge from. We're working on that one.

However, I don't see how the moderators are in for fixing the low level of behaviour? How are we supposed to make you guys act mature and kind? We are not your dads or mums. Seriously, though I admit the moderation needs to be organised better it's pretty cheap to point the finders at us, while half of the forum's posts are flames, redundancies, offends, bla-bla-chat and stuff which isn't even related to AC. To me it feels like, you guys come in here partying and littering the place with chunk and now it's ours to clean the mess. No sir, I won't do that. You've got to pay someone for this kind of service...

As a matter of fact, everbody, not only the mods, everybody! needs to sustain a decent level of behaviour.

[PolarHedgehog]

why so serious? chill

Why am I talking about this in particular ? Because it's always the same : when something isn't good for moderation's image, it gets deleted/hidden, and some moderators act for them and their mates, not for the forum.

But then how come this thread, actually criticizing the moderators isnt closed?
Your logic is flawed.

Tbh this thread is pointless. Ironfisting 4life.

[Luc@s]

But then how come this thread, actually criticizing the moderators isnt closed?
Your logic is flawed.

Tbh this thread is pointless. Ironfisting 4life.

It's better for everybody to try to fix problems than to do like if they were no problems imho

[Drakas]

On topic. Sure, the moderation isn't perfect at the moment as there's no common ground to judge from. We're working on that one.

You mean rules? Yes, I can't wait for it, actually.

However, I don't see how the moderators are in for fixing the low level of behaviour? How are we supposed to make you guys act mature and kind? We are not your dads or mums.

Well, that'll be fixed once some kind of rules are implemented, because that'll provide a good grounding and consistency, and so idiocy gets kicked out much more quickly. Those wanting to participate in discussions will obviously not go against the rules => better forum => less time spent dealing with idiocy.

Seriously, though I admit the moderation needs to be organised better it's pretty cheap to point the finders at us,

When I was making my post, the moderation was not getting any better... ie. the problem does lie in the moderation.

while half of the forum's posts are flames, redundancies, offends, bla-bla-chat and stuff which isn't even related to AC.

Well, if we let a problem go on, it'll only get worse ;)... we need to start fixing it somewhere...

To me it feels like, you guys come in here partying and littering the place with chunk and now it's ours to clean the mess.

There wouldn't be such a big problem now if there more transparency, consistency and strictness just a few months ago. Who allowed these guys to start littering the place in the first place? ;)

No sir, I won't do that. You've got to pay someone for this kind of service...

One reason why I was addressing this to the people involved in active moderation, not to anyone moderating specifically.

As a matter of fact, everbody, not only the mods, everybody! needs to sustain a decent level of behaviour.

Yep...

I'm sure a big number of smart people who are not in the moderation team have left simply because of that behaviour, so it's simply a feedback process... After all, if you can't have a proper discussion about AC in the AC forum, then you are very likely to give up.

I hope something good comes out of the mature writing in this thread :)

[Hellspell]

i really dont care appolo lol, this is an online game bro.. stop acting like this is some serious shit

Online video game

everyone is acting like this is some world ending shit, but whatever, i know some of you just like to feel useful so you act all high and mighty on a video game, whatever floats your boat

o imo

Agreed. It saddens me that there's people on this forum who treat ac as seriously as they do. At the end of the day it's just a damned video game, there's more important things in life.

Mod Edited: It saddens me that after everything that was said here some kids keep insisting in trolling this discussion thread and it amazes me the fact that people register at a discussion forum of something they don't care about at all, instead of going after the more important thing in life...
Warned for trolling

[adam]

Why dont you stop deleting everyone's post you douchebags

---

i dont think a single person likes you mods. in case you were wondering. irc is full of at least 50 people ranting about this post atm

[Bullpup]

for some reason, my posts keep on being deleted.

can someone please explain it to me
Mod Edit: Stop deleting the fact that you got a warning for this post, or you will get more warning points, or maybe just be banned.

[adam]

Lol gg banning undead. when someone beats you, you ban them. great strategy

[MusicMan10]

i think everybody needs to calm down and get back on topic. it is my opinion that this forum just needs a clear, straight set of rules for mods AND users to go by.

ModMan10 Edit: I can explain this to you. Your post is just wasting space and says nothing constructive. You are just posting to mock of the situation. I am just using common sense and will not be drawn into a childish debate with you.

[XFA]

there used to be rules, but they wernt moved from old forums

[adam]

Just like the archives

[DES|Boomhauer]

TBH, I think AC has too many "leaders". And too many rules. I mean, is this a game or what? One of the main things that draws people like (me) to AC is that it is open-source and completely in the hands of the PLAYERS. I agree with anti cheat stuff, and a limit as to what is generally accepted as bad language/abusive/immoral behavior. But other than that, I think who posts what and where should be left up to the people. This is not the moderators forum, its the PLAYERS FORUM. Maybe there should be a cut-back of moderators, and do it like in game, put it to a vote. It can't be hard to implement a voting method into the forums. That way if enough people agree that the topic is redundant, useless, flaming, whatever...it can be bumped to a SPAM category, and read by choice. We ALL deserve a chance to see ANYONE's opinion on ANYTHING related to the game. And posting a picture? Give me a break. Anyone has a right to post a picture anywhere on the forum IMO, unless it is OFFENSIVE. Not offensive to a moderator, but offensive in the eyes of the AC community in general. No one should have the right to delete a posted picture, just because they don't like it. That's just lame. So in short, the best thing to do IMHO is slim out the amount of moderators, and implement a voting capability into the forums. LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES!!! This would actually be a lot easier on the Mods, they would have to do less. Then maybe we could see them back in-game, so those that have forgotten may remember what this game is all about....

[Zarjio]

Boomhauer, there is nothing more annoying than people posting a meaningless picture as an attempt to make a mockery out of something other people consider very important.
If people want to post stupid / funny / meaningless pictures, there is an offtopic sub-forum. Otherwise, they are just try to troll / spam / flame, and they will be warned or banned.

[DES|Boomhauer]

and they will be warned or banned.

um...I have always liked you Zarj. But I think you are on the wrong side of this. Kindly read my post again, and this time don't skip over it till you find something you disagree with. I was talking about exactly this...I don't like this "and they will be warned or banned" stuff. The point is, you shouldn't have that right. The people should. I am saying that you alone, or any GROUP of moderators should let THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY decide whether or not this is acceptable. Banning Undead for this was....politely put, immature. And banning adam for saying something about it, even more so. You gonna ban me now?

[Zarjio]

First, of all, no, this is not a player's forum. The developers are paying to maintain this forum, and they are administrators of the forum. Hence, they can choose who they like to be moderators.

Secondly, how exactly are "the people" supposed to choose who to ban, which topics to close, etc? If you are suggesting "anything goes", then why don't we just have hacks, spambots, or better yet, some XXX-rated material on this forum? On the other hand, if people get to vote on what is acceptable and what is not, then people will simply spend all day deciding who to try to get banned, and it will all come down to who hates who more, and things will be even more political than they are now.
No, we need "police" on this forum. Perhaps the methods for choosing those police ban be changed, but we will always need moderators.

As for Undead, although I was not the one who banned him, he was the one acting immaturely. He knew full well that what he was posting was spam, and he was doing nothing but trolling, and so he has been removed from the discussion. This is not a permanent ban. Actions have consequences. People need to learn they can't say whatever they heck they like online.

[JMM]

any GROUP of moderators should let THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY decide whether or not this is acceptable. Banning Undead for this was....politely put, immature.

In an ideal world, of course that would be how things were done. However, in practice, this "everyone gets to decide" thing just doesn't work quite as well as you'd like it to, not here anyway. With an open source game, it's easy to become a "part of the community". But then, who gets to decide on the issue? Everyone, including spammers, trolls and flamers? What makes a person a spammer, troll or flamer? Should new players be considered community members as well? If so, what to do when majority of them have uninformed opinions since they don't yet understand AC and the rest of the community?

Giving power to people is something that works well in theory. However, much like many ideas so great and wonderful in theory, this too is unfortunately impossible in practice.

EDIT: Yea... I shoulda refreshed before replying :/

[DES|Boomhauer]

First, of all, no, this is not a player's forum. The developers are paying to maintain this forum, and they are administrators of the forum.

I can see why Undead is so frustrated with the moderators. It is obviously very hard to convey my thoughts adequately to you.
By this "First of all" post it almost sounds like your saying the devs do all of this with their own money? Well, that may be partially true, but I know for a fact they accept donations FROM THE COMMUNITY. And if this is "not a player's forum" then who is doing all this posting? Without the PLAYERS their would be NO AC COMMUNITY and no need for the forums, unless the moderators and the developers just want to ban all the players and talk amongst themselves?

Secondly, how exactly are "the people" supposed to choose who to ban, which topics to close, etc?

Remember in my second post when i said this?:
"Kindly read my post again, and this time don't skip over it till you find something you disagree with." This is an example of what I meant.
I explained this adequately in my first post with this statement:
"It can't be hard to implement a voting method into the forums. That way if enough people agree that the topic is redundant, useless, flaming, whatever...it can be bumped to a SPAM category, and read by choice. We ALL deserve a chance to see ANYONE's opinion on ANYTHING related to the game."

If you are suggesting "anything goes", then why don't we just have hacks, spambots, or better yet, some XXX-rated material on this forum?

Remember in my second post when i said this?:
"Kindly read my post again, and this time don't skip over it till you find something you disagree with." This is an example of what I meant.
I explained this adequately in my first post with this statement:
"I agree with anti cheat stuff, and a limit as to what is generally accepted as bad language/abusive/immoral behavior. But other than that, I think who posts what and where should be left up to the people."

On the other hand, if people get to vote on what is acceptable and what is not, then people will simply spend all day deciding who to try to get banned, and it will all come down to who hates who more, and things will be even more political than they are now.
No, we need "police" on this forum. Perhaps the methods for choosing those police ban be changed, but we will always need moderators.

I don't know about you, but I have never had a cop come to my door and tell me not to post something on a forum. I understand what you are trying to say, but neither you, nor anyone else NEEDS to tell me what to post or where. I don't need to be policed. This is an escape from reality, from the "real world" as it were. This AC community is a place I go to forget about all the nonsense of everyday life. I assume a lot of people feel this way. I don't want, nor do I need anyone implementing such a "real life" mentality as "policing" into my little fantasy world. I don't need a librarian telling me what notes to take from a book. I just need them to tell me where the book is, you know what I mean?

He knew full well that what he was posting was spam, and he was doing nothing but trolling, and so he has been removed from the discussion.

It's not possible to say what someone else "knew", unless they verbalized it. There is a word for that.
"In Freudian psychology, Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies their own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have those feelings."-wikipedia

Actions have consequences.

I guess the moderators of the AC forum have the right to punish the community for trivial things. I am sure that Hitler would agree. He would probably say that the consequences of performing Judaism are to be put to death. But that wouldn't make him right would it? In other words, you think banning these guys was appropriate. I don't. And I am sure a lot of people would agree with me. I am not comparing anyone of you to Hitler, but it seems I need to be a little more extreme in my explanations, so that you may actually pay attention to ALL of what I am saying, thus my over-the-top example.
"Actions have consequences...first rule of life. And the second rule is this - you are the only one responsible for your own actions."
~Holly Lisle, Fire In The Mist, 1992

People need to learn they can't say whatever they heck they like online.

I don't know about you, but I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want. Prime example, I could have just posted cussing and acting like a moron and calling you guys all kinds of names. But I assume I would just be banned from the forums, AS WELL I SHOULD BE if I were to act that way. But instead I have taken the time to put plenty of thought into my reply, and to go about it in the most civil way I can. I am not interested in arguing, but forming a solid stance, based on fact and only mildly influenced by personal opinion, so as to present basis for compromise rather than a biased selfish solution.
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
~Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

[Zarjio]

And if this is "not a player's forum" then who is doing all this posting? Without the PLAYERS their would be NO AC COMMUNITY and no need for the forums, unless the moderators and the developers just want to ban all the players and talk amongst themselves?

The devs run the forum. If the players want to go and make their own forum, they can go ahead and do so. The players can also go ahead and make their own game if they like, too.
But since the devs created the game which led to the creation of this community, I would say they deserve to hold power here.

I don't need a librarian telling me what notes to take from a book. I just need them to tell me where the book is, you know what I mean?

Yes, but you do need the librarian to keep the punks who think it is funny to cause a ruckus in the library from ruining everyone else's experience. The moderators are not here to micro-manage every aspect of every post, we are here to try to keep some semblance of order. What you are proposing would ultimately be anarchy. You ever been frustrated by being unable to kick/ban someone from a server, for whatever reason? People just didn't care enough to vote? Now imagine exactly the same thing happening on these forums. In-game administration is needed, forum moderation is also needed.

It's not possible to say what someone else "knew", unless they verbalized it. There is a word for that.

I talked to Undead today. He said he would re-post the image as soon as he was unbanned, knowing full well he would simply be re-banned. No, the trolls know exactly what they are doing, and exactly what the consequences of their actions will be.

I am sure that Hitler would agree...
I am not comparing anyone of you to Hitler...

Yes, you are. And by bringing Hitler into this, you invoke Goodwin's Law, meaning you automatically lose the debate.

"Actions have consequences...first rule of life. And the second rule is this - you are the only one responsible for your own actions."

I agree. A troll is responsible only for his own ridiculous nonsense, not anyone else's. And thus people have been banned for their own posts, not because of the actions of others.

But instead I have taken the time to put plenty of thought into my reply, and to go about it in the most civil way I can. I am not interested in arguing, but forming a solid stance, based on fact and only mildly influenced by personal opinion, so as to present basis for compromise rather than a biased selfish solution.

Fair enough. And you certainly have! I mean this in all seriousness, I can see a lot of thought went into your reply. But that is why the trolls are being banned: exactly 0 thought went into their replies. They are only trying to piss people off. Guess what? They succeeded. GG to them.

[DES|Boomhauer]

ONCE AGAIN, I see you skipped over and UNDER-analyzed my post. However I tire of this. Maybe I am just too old and intolerant to continue to bang my head against the wall talking to you. I am not a person who debates for the sake of debating. I debate to meet a common middle ground. And while in every post I have made suggestions towards a solution, you seem to have concentrated primarily on arguing your point, rather than presenting any similitude of closure. I don't know the developers of the game. But in my honest opinion, I believe they would/should be embarrassed to see how they are being represented by the moderators of this forum. No need to ban me though, you won't see me back here for a good long while. Personally I think you presented me with the best option via your last post; a user moderated forum. And if I have my way, such uncompromising and snotty expressions as "The players can also go ahead and make their own game if they like, too." will be far less tolerated than POSTING A PICTURE IN A FORUM.

By the Way: Godwin's law is just a joke. RTFW!
And by request I include this link: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

[ElCrema]

You see Boom, now just imagine that after all the thought you put into your arguments for this discussion, I come here to put a funny picture of some kind saying this is all very serious, get a life and stfu?
What should be done to me, in your opinion?

[Luc@s]

nothing imho