Let me balance this game

[macm]

it is possible to make a triggerbot, with the current scripting capabilities in AC

Have you ever used such script? because i'm 99% sure you're wrong.

competitive skill level is what pub players strive for, if devs are ignoring what is best for the competitive side of the game then there's no point on getting better at the game.

[Roflcopter]

If the balance system is so hard to handle and so subjective, why should we give this huge and unstable task to someone who said the sniper was fine during the 1.1?

Never my opinion.

So many people claiming my views are something incorrectly, bye.

[RKTnoob]

competitive skill level is what pub players strive for

There are many pub players, not everyone of them strive for such a goal. Some people play for fun, some play to play with their mates, some play mostly gema etc. You can't just say that everyone falls into the same category, and expect this to be truth just because it is your oppinion. If you really want to know what pub players think, go there and ask a 100 of them.

It is nice to be better, and to improve your game, but it doesn't mean everyone wants to be the best they can be.

[Orynge]

I still don't understand why this can't be worked on and then submitted and argued about. So much arguing about Larry is going on in this thread, does it really make a difference?

[Mystered]

Imo if I was Larry i would not want to spend time on something, submit it and then being told that people don't like it

[+f0r3v3r+]

Imo if I was Larry i would not want to spend time on something, submit it and then being told that people don't like it

You guys think the devs like it either?
It is the pitfall of contributing code I am afraid...

[Cemer]

So many people claiming my views are something incorrectly, bye.

i assume that is it folks

in the possibility that i am made a fool by become the epitome of irony however, i would like to address the main problem: once again there are two sides, the ones who agree and the ones who don't. you all are just playing words and playing each other's words instead of bringing up facts or opinions without personal attacks; its just two pages of one clique versus another

the only reason i can see this going through now if rofl makes a new thread and shows his work, like jamz said. we as assaultcube are notoriously stubborn and very averse to recieving new content. however for once, the obstinate have a valid reason to be as such; there are no ideas being put forward. he is just stating "let me do it"

the obstinate may very well be wrong by not being in favour, but can you really blame them? there is nothing to back up opinions, even mine included. i cant convert you to the church of kleenex tissues simply by saying "join my church noob"

as i attacked one side, ill attack the other. was this actually serious or was this another classic ruse?

[Sanzo'']

Excuse me, i have not played a lot of game on the current version but from what i played i found the balance pretty good :o

What is wrong with the current balance??

I mean Shotgun is pretty bad for sure but.. It has been bad for 6 years! Are we really gonna start crying now?
I strongly disagree with people bashing on carbine, IMHO carbine is really strong when used in a good way..
And the trinity weapons have never been that balanced. AC is a fast FPS, duels depends on a lot of factors other then the weapon itself. Sometimes the weapon is too strong (i.e last version AR) but in this version any smg/sniper/ar can kill his opponent if played correctly.

Obviously ex-ARs are bitching, their weapon got heavily nerf. Yeah so what? I was bitching when devs butchered my sniper in last version (dude common it was shit :< ). People will adapt, I don't want dev to build the game for a small minority of "competitives" players. I want them to do the best public balance they can, and i want the "competitive" scene to use this balance to shine.


Back on topic, i don't see any problems in this balance, please explain to me people '-'

[Waffles]

The simplest explanation is that the time to kill is too high.

This can be from a variety of variables including weapon spread, damage, ray radius, etc.

It is as Larry said, it does not reward aim (even if spread was high yet predictable it'd be better), it also does not reward awareness (you can get shot in the back, turn around and still have a chance to get the kill).

I agree that players will adapt and I still find the game fun. However, I don't see how having weapons balanced at the top 10% of the game reduces fun in any way. If anything, it'd make the game faster and more intense. At the moment kill times are very slow. Unless you're hitting close to 43% with smg or more consistently, kill times are not even close to the previous versions levels with AR. No, i'm not butthurt about ar being nerfed relative to other weapons, i am upset however that the entire balance has gotten slower.

Balance the other guns up to 1.1 AR would be a start in the right direction. This way, you'd have to be precise, have good reactions, and be aware of your enemies position, all the makings of truly sweet games. Without that the game seems very casual (not that it wasnt or that isnt it's intent, I just think you can do fun a better way).

[killerjoe]

Also, a few ideas of your projects would be appreciated before my vote...

• I want lower time to kill
  
• I want lower spread and somewhat lower recoil
  
• I want every weapon to have a real place in the game
  
• I want a more gentle learning curve to encourage new competitive players
  

When you mean lower time to kill do you mean less damage? If so then what are you thinking?!

I aggree with the other ideas.

[Waffles]

No, lowering time to kill is another way of saying make it possible to kill more quickly.

[Sanzo'']

The simplest explanation is that the time to kill is too high.

Did someone do stats or is this just the feeling people get? (i'd love to see for 1.0 1.1 and 1.2)
Because, I just feel like AC is back to it's roots. And honestly this is a really good feeling :)

[Elite]

I have to agree with Sanzo, the current weapon balance is ok. The only gun, that is really shit, is the sg, but any other gun is quite acceptable. Especially the carbine is really strong, but most of us haven't noticed this yet. Moreover I don't see any real disadvantage of the AR compared to the smg.
Sure it isn't as strong as before, but that's good so. In my opinion the overpowered AR was the reason for the total failure of 1.1 and now we see what are results, less good players, awful public games, .... . You can't change the balance completely over night and especially not when a game has his peak.

Nontheless i have nothing against Larry's impact on further development of the weapon balance. Furthermore there are currently other problems, that are more important and need to be fixed earlier.

[Nightmare]

For all these 'hey the Carbine is strong' guys.
|w00p| should use carbine in gold finals. :)
You guys are the best, so if you can't do it, noone can.

[ExodusS]

Balance the other guns up to 1.1 AR would be a start in the right direction.

But out of the AR, all ther other weapons were buffed:

-SMG is stronger, the spread is more rewardfull when handled especially at long range.
-Sniper is stronger, 1 sniper bullet + only 1 starting pistol shot accordingly to the armour.
-Shotgun is stronger, more rewardfull at long distance accordingly to your aim, the time between two shots is way shorter than ever, use it with caution in matches, not no ac_power of course, it's the less polyvalent weapon of the game, it has been like that since the start.
-Carabine is way stronger, it pierces the armour and kill really fast if you aim perfectly, it's the most rewardful weapon of "pro" players IMO, and it's a fun weapon to use. It's not impossible to own in public games so why would it be impossible to own in matches? Plus you know I'm pretty bad at this game.

Reducing the killing time would also reduce the reward of your moves (all your moves out of duels ones), the way you walk in each rooms, your position before a fight, how you move during a fight to steal a pickup. When I see old CS:1.6 tournaments, each duels are extremelly boring to see, when they both have the vision of their opponent, they crouch and shot because it's the one who kill faster who win. Lowering the killing time would just make AC a more static game during fights, giving no chances to escape a fight in a smart way. AC is not all based on the aim, if it was, Drakas would be such a bad player.

[Waffles]

I agree the guns got buffs. I'm also not saying to make a drastic change.

if we consider a player playing smg at mid range. Maybe a player gets 43% acc with some good aim and also some good luck. I agree weapons need to be played intelligently as well, so an smger shouldnt engage from longer than mid-range unless against another smg or shotgun. even with 43% it is still possible for the enemy to disengage and regenerate.

If its too high, then yes the game becomes similar to CS or CoD. However, too low, and you've just drastically reduced the skill cap. The term is balance, taking into account game speed. At the moment, the time to kill allows far too many mistakes to go unpunished simply from disengaging.

I'd like to see aim rewarded and I don't see how that particular element slows the game down. "we dont want AR sniper rifles waffles." my retort would be tracking at distance is difficult and there is still the player physics of strafe running to contend with. Less spread (read: less random spread) would give players an edge.

Also, I'd like someone to explain to me how balancing pubs is fine for everybody. My counter would be that if you balance the game to the highest caliber play possible at the time, those who have less "skill" would taper in skill, but the guns themselves would maintain relative balance. Balancing to pubs does not have the same effect.

Consider this (as I'm sure the devs have). A sniper, lets call him a good sniper, who hits 1 bullet and then 1 pistol gets a kill. Range is not an object except for the pistol shot. The sniper at least gets 84 damage. 400ms switch and can get pistol shots off which has a decent rate of fire.

contrast, smg player at same range as sniper. gets far more bullets off, range is a huge issue. "dont engage a sniper at range". still, in a 1 shot scenario that sniper still does heaps of damage in less time than dealing an equivalent amount with a hitscan weapon. makes the game interesting. However, a sniper hitting a decent accuracy of lets say 61%, is going to do more damage at a similar skill to a smg player.

I'm not saying sniper is OP. It probably is the only gun with a decent enough time to kill potential. In terms of raw stats, it probably is the best gun because we cant assume 100% with a hitscan weapon.

whats the solution? 1)reward aim with lower spread, recoil or both.
2)for the buff in accuracy, reduce kickback speed for rushing but not eliminate it.

also, "It's not impossible to own in public games so why would it be impossible to own in matches?" is completely off the mark. No offense intended, but the average quality of pubs are vastly inferior to the average clan match or even inter.

[ExodusS]

But the Sniper is not play-able on small maps with non-far range points, because it's way harder to kill someone with a sniper bullet at very short range, the SMG will just miss a few bullets, but if the sniper miss a single sniper bullet, you can be sure he's dead, he can't even escape. At small range, the scove advantage does not exist, all you have to do is to hit the single bullet you can shot without a crosshair (not even a problem for experienced players, i assume) then hit with a pistol bullet, if you miss the first pistol bullet, then the SMG has now a chance to kill you because it's now a similar case than the 1.1 sniper.

A decent accuracy for a Sniper is not 61%, it's nearby 40%, maybe 50, and you can ask all experienced snipers, they will tell you this. A better accuracy would mean that you did not shot enough, don't remember than a shot is not always meant to hit. The accuracy on the sniper is not reliable at all, statistics are just useless numbers.

What is disturbing me even more is that you don't even complain about the Carbine, when I get hit by a Carbine, I have almost the same feeling than when I get hit by a Sniper, if I can't get a health-pack fast, any automatic weapon I'll cross will instantly kill me for sure.
The Carbine shot faster, fast enough to kill a Sniper at a long range, and is a lot more polyvalent than the sniper. Plus the Carbine damages is even more close to the Sniper damages when I have a lot of Kevlar, meaning the armour almost doesn't count for this weapon.

[Waffles]

I don't reckon statistics are useless. Merely misinterpreted. a carbine looks very good on paper, but most players cant hit regularly enough with it to make it viable. Sure in a pub where 3 carbines are shooting at you from multiple angles can be a little intense, but in a match 1 or (normally) 2 missed shots and the relatively slow rate of fire make it a non-issue in match play. I'd like to see every weapon become viable, but I also think carbine, sniper, and to some extent shotgun are less of an issue than auto weapons because it is purely based on your aim and positioning. Luck of spread has no real impact with the carbine buff and the sniper scope. even no-scope spread was reduced afaik.

If the guns are awful from user error, fair enough. If they're awful or great because of lucky number 7 then there's no consistency and no real measurable way to improve which can drive some players away.

[stef]

This is great. Roflcopter has not given the least bit of detail, about what he wants to change "without debate", and now that is all we have: another debate about weapon balance.

So, no one knows the next step - but the step after that will be "profit!", I guess?

[Roflcopter]

This is great. Roflcopter has not given the least bit of detail, about what he wants to change "without debate", and now that is all we have: another debate about weapon balance.

So, no one knows the next step - but the step after that will be "profit!", I guess?

You know, I used to argue individual points but what's the point? You end up with a concept-less mess of tweaks. Even when people seem to agree on something, such as half-time side switching, the developers didn't take me up on my offer to code it.

It may be safe short-term to just tweak the game, but it is slowly stagnating and it will die unless you take a smart leap of faith.

I'm a people-pleaser at heart, I did it with the aG cup, with ACWC 2012, with Weekend Cup. Now I want to do it with balance.

[Marti]

I'm a people-pleaser at heart

You like pleasing people don't you? ;) :D:D:D



(Sry its late)

[stef]

If you seriously think, we would promise to use your "all new balance" without seeing it first, you must be out of your mind. At least.

You are talking about the core of the game - where the best possible change is one, that pisses off all players equally...

[DES|Anderson]

Over the years I have played this game, admittedly in pubs I have learned a few things. One of them is no matter what "balance" you achieve the "pro" or competitive players will never be happy.

Secondly and unfortunately shown clearly in this thread most "pro" competitive players are hatters. Pub players have a right to an opinion on this too, and weapon balance effects them also.

I have nothing against the constant struggle to find balance and hey if someone believes they have the magic formulae I say good luck to you. Experience tells me we will be back here again with another thread about poor balance soon but who cares if a continual cycle of moaning followed by intense work by the Devs and then a repeat cycle is what floats you boat welcome to AC.

The pub players (looked down upon by most round here) just want to play and have fun, it is their games that attract new players to AC. It is them who keep a constant presence on servers, it is them who create the possibility of leagues, clans and matches so cut them some slack and let them have their say if they think weapon balance at the moment encourages use of many different weapon types then accept that is a valid comment, don't be a hatter.

Oh and just for the record I do play inters and clan matches when I can, I would play in leagues if only I knew how to get involved. The whole "pro" competitive player thing is elitest and not open to all, many so called pro players leave pubs when they realise skilled pub players are in as they don't want their precious ratios to suffer on ladders, yea they are the top skilled players cant wait to see them everyday.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish...

[Mr.OpTic]

Since when does anyone in AC refer to themselves as being pro? Delusional.

[Robtics]

I think you missunderstood the way andy used "pro"

[ExodusS]

The whole "pro" competitive player thing is elitest and not open to all...

You seriously could not have been so wrong by saying that, you can be sure everywhere competitive players are (teamspeaks, mumbles, private servers etc...) everyone is welcome. You can not ignore the fact most of inters are organisated by people who go in public servers to call random people, and everyone is allowed to come, the only time I saw someone refused from an Inter it was because it was a fresh ex-cheater and no-one trusted him enough to let him play with us. I never saw someone banned from a clan IRC or refused from an inter organised from the IRC because he wasn't strong enough.

Maybe some (or a lot) of them are elitists in mind or on forums by what they say, but for sure not in behavior. Invitation only clans are not common.

[Cemer]

ive never been good at this game but ill be damned if i ever was turned away from playing an inter game because of my skill

[EndGame]

"Be like water my friend"

Lee.

[Syntax]

The whole "pro" competitive player thing is elitest and not open to all, many so called pro players leave pubs when they realise skilled pub players are in as they don't want their precious ratios to suffer on ladders, yea they are the top skilled players cant wait to see them everyday.

Not really. If someone -- anyone, even if no one knew them -- made the effort to simply say, "Can I join an inter?" they'd probably be given a spot if there's a free one.

[Roflcopter]

The whole "pro" competitive player thing is elitest and not open to all, many so called pro players leave pubs when they realise skilled pub players are in as they don't want their precious ratios to suffer on ladders, yea they are the top skilled players cant wait to see them everyday.

The quote is hilarious and I didn't see it before.

No one is hiding from pubstars and no one cares about meaningless ladders. Competitive players often prioritise their ratios in public games only because meaningful teamplay and other elements of the game are impossible with random teammates.

Also no one is pro in AC. It's like you use the term "pro" to project a falsely grandiose self-view on competitive players.