Map Bias

[Cemer]

Hi all,

I'd like to see how the community thinks about map bias. I have made a survey to simplify the process, and I am open to hear any of your thoughts regarding the concept and idea.

Here is the link to the survey:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1g9rSmHF...I/viewform

[#M|A#Wolf]

Maybe I'm just a filthy believer in democracy, but I think that for every release the community should vote on which maps to remove/add – maybe add and remove two or three maps to refresh the list in each version? I say this because, right now, I'm looking at the official list and I can't understand how some maps got there.

[Cemer]

Maybe I'm just a filthy believer in democracy, but I think that for every release the community should vote on which maps to remove/add – maybe add and remove two or three maps to refresh the list in each version? I say this because, right now, I'm looking at the official list and I can't understand how some maps got there.

Yeah, I'd say the same personally. Yet at the same time, at the way things work with current maps and custom maps that could be played, how will we know what maps to add? The playability of maps can be highly skewed as there is a lack of testing done, so whatever small sample size that is used can have some odd or uncharacteristic trends that may not work in the long run.

That might be for another argument though altogether.

[Orynge]

I feel like a bunch people just picked that they don't like the map and nothing else.

[-Subjective]

I didn't tick I don't like the map once. There are some maps in here which are not played / not good enough to be played. But its always funny to see them around in pubs.

We don't need to think about ourselves bt also those people who play in pubs all day long. If we can't use a map for competitive play it doesn't mean that it isn't good enough for pubs.

[ExodusS]

What about ac_snow and ac_rattrap, are these maps too good to be in the list?

[Marti]

I think its ctf maps?

[1Cap]

2015 and we dont have a good PC to play ac_venison?
Nah... sometimes democracy fails. We are very complex beings,

[Orynge]

2015 and we dont have a good PC to play ac_venison?
Nah... sometimes democracy fails. We are very complex beings,

Shame on those people who have old computers. Who do they think they are, playing this low-requirement game on a low-end computer.

[Cemer]

What about ac_snow and ac_rattrap, are these maps too good to be in the list?

Yeah, like Marti said; it is just CTF maps. I'll be clearer next time.

[1Cap]

The map ac_venison was chosen to enter in the official pack.
At that time it was discussed whether it would be "heavy" for the game or not.
Today it is a map on the official pack. And a great map. A whole year of work and a great result.
This is my point: In 2015, ac_venison really is "heavy" for the game?

* If you use the irony constantly it becomes an attack.

[Orynge]

ac_venison really is "heavy" for the game?

For some people, yes. So is rattrap.

[ExodusS]

2015 and we dont have a good PC to play ac_venison?

Yeah why the poors and poors, they suck.

Yeah, like Marti said; it is just CTF maps. I'll be clearer next time.

It was just sarcasm, these maps would just fail at any votes in any kind of polls.

[Honor]

Venison is just a bad map. No need to argue on why no one play it

[Luc@s]

Its funny that some people reproach me the fact i implement a feature to restrict map and gamemode combinations and then they come here to ask for some maps to be removed.

Here is the thing : a map can be good for one gamemode and one amount of players, and bad for another.

So, i'd rather have a (large) list of official maps, then a restricted list of map modes combinations. so, to each map, we could bind the list of modes allowed in competitive gameplay.
then one can set his server to accept more combinations if needed but that would be beyond the "official" competitive pool. In order words, exactly whats been implemented in the match client...

EDIT: each map should ALWAYS be played on both sides by every team, so the fact they are "biased" wouldn't matter. Because otherwise theres always one side that is a little better. ANd its not just more fair, it also allows more strategies to be set.

[Cemer]

Bias is irrelevant when both sides are played as ideally each team has an equal chance to win.

I guess another good question would be which is the better format to conduct an inter/match?

[Luc@s]

BO3

10 minute each side of the maps
direct pick then veto process for the tie breaker
max duration: 1hour


BO1
15 minutes each side
max 30 minutes

[Orynge]

Its funny that some people reproach me the fact i implement a feature to restrict map and gamemode combinations and then they come here to ask for some maps to be removed.

That was mainly because you didn't actually consult the community as you made the decision on what maps and game modes should be played.

BO3
10 minute each side of the maps
direct pick then veto process for the tie breaker
max duration: 1hour
BO1
15 minutes each side
max 30 minutes

Now that I agree with.

[Luc@s]

Its funny that some people reproach me the fact i implement a feature to restrict map and gamemode combinations and then they come here to ask for some maps to be removed.

That was mainly because you didn't actually consult the community as you made the decision on what maps and game modes should be played.

theres a time for the code and a time for the decision. if i wait for the community to send me a detailed map pool supported by serious arguments, its never gonna happen. (i'm still waiting)

now that people should be happy because the feature is here and they actually can make sucha list, they prefer to shit on me. AC logic i suppose...

so, in other words : i made the code. (nobody else did). now, if the community wants its word on it - since they say they're not able to produce the code - they need to GIVE their opinion. BITCHING when someone writes a needed piece of code is not likely to improve something

[#M|A#Wolf]

now, if the community wants its word on it - since they say they're not able to produce the code - they need to GIVE their opinion. BITCHING when someone writes a needed piece of code is not likely to improve something

You just need to ask, mate. You could ask us through here what maps we recommend, we assemble a list and vote, or you could give us a list of your choice and we can vote on it.

I know sometimes you might feel like you are doing everything, and there might be certain people that make it seem like your work is worthless, but if you approach the community publicly about these kinds of things I believe it will help us feel involved, it will remove some weight off your shoulders, and it will help generate at least some sense of harmony around here.

[MorganKell]

MorganKell is just waiting for Dog to up the ante with another beast map of shine-tastic proportions.

[ExodusS]

Its funny that some people reproach me the fact i implement a feature to restrict map and gamemode combinations and then they come here to ask for some maps to be removed.

lol, if the map restrictions were also checking the WQD of each maps in all possible directions, you know as me ac_venison would never pass the test.

[Luc@s]

lol, if the map restrictions were also checking the WQD of each maps in all possible directions, you know as me ac_venison would never pass the test.

what the hell are you talking about ? i don't see any connection between your post and mine.
nobody is talking about "map restrictions" by the way. Like the automatized map restrictions are literally offtopic here.

For those who have no idea whats being mentioned here : http://forum.cubers.net/thread-8048-post...#pid160286

[Oracle]

I think what he's saying is that venison is the one (maybe of a few, some would argue) bad egg that is viable neither in matches or pubs.

[Alien]

Doesn't matter what is in official package, it is server admin who will configure maprot. If your server is pub or match server, it is defined by maprot. I think the role of official package is tutorial for other mappers. Next official maps should have bot paths.

[Marti]

lets get back to map bias

[ExodusS]

lol, if the map restrictions were also checking the WQD of each maps in all possible directions, you know as me ac_venison would never pass the test.

what the hell are you talking about ? i don't see any connection between your post and mine.
nobody is talking about "map restrictions" by the way. Like the automatized map restrictions are literally offtopic here.

Yes, nobody is talking about map restrictions, so do I. I was just saying that if people are, like you said so well, "bitching" about laggy implemented official maps in the package and if those same maps are not even respecting one of the seven main official map rules from the documentation of the game, they are totally allowed to complain about it while it's the duty of any dev, as small as his responsabilities can be toward the official map package, to offer the most enjoyable and accurate playing experience to the players, thus throught smart mapping restrictions and a very selected official map package.

EDIT: Compalinign and asking for a map to be removed from the official bundle because the gameplay is bad or it's ugly is stupid, but when people are asking for it because it just does not respect one of the main fundamental rules of AssaultCube which is to be playable on small machines, then it should always be considerated instead of asking for the "bitching" to stop.