1.3 Wishes

[Nightmare]

Tallied up all of the suggestions from Mousikos' recent thread and put them on a scale of 'how bad do players want this?' by popularity. Larger = most popular and more likely to cause riots if not added.

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/pause

Improved Weapon Balance

Remove Map Restrictions

Regularly Updated Official Map Pool

Master Server Tabs Separating Official & Custom Maps

Search & Destroy Mode

[Nightmare]

Anyways

1) Done, In testing.
2) Community has many that'd offer to help or straight up do this for the devs.
3) Someone has mentioned possibly doing a patch for this in the future if it's deemed wanted.
4) Z3R0, arguably the best active mapper, has offered to be map dev for this feature.
5) ?
6) ?

[Marti]

6) ?

i'll happily test this if needed

[Ronald_Reagan]

1) Note that nothing is in the official repo, just has a pull request. I F1 this feature as well though.
2) new thread
3) Someone make a thread about the pros and cons so we can have an open discussion here on the PG.
4) RK comment on this? It would be nice to hear your take. I do think there should be more movement with the AC maps. Almost would be nice to have each release add a map or two, and perhaps remove one or two.
5) I have no personal feelings about this.
6) We want to make AC more like CS? Alright :> What about the capture mode that Lucas made?

[ExodusS]

It would be nice to see devs hiring some real mappers to fix bugs/glitches, improve some maps, add new contents/features (new clips) added for the next release in all the current official maps. RK has been hysterical about fixing glitches in the past, publicly claiming these were intentionnal and so that we could not fix those glitches. (words from someone who edited swamp right before the release and without asking Undead/me)

[Z3R0]

Here to say that I would indeed like to help with the map dev side of things. I'd happily go through all the official maps and bug fix and would like a hand in adding/possibly removing maps.
Regarding Search & Destroy, is there not already KOTH/Control Point game modes complete? I'd love to see them implemented and have some nice map ideas I'd like to use on a map with maybe 1 or 3 bases. I don't know if that's a thing atm though, just remember reading about that somewhere.

[Marti]

Yeah wasnt there a Control the Base mode coded by lucas which was supposed to be implemented in 1.2? (Or at least was spoken about)

[Oracle]

Imo we should focus on getting in the Control the base/base capture/whatever mode fully implemented in next version before trying to play with the idea of another.

[Luc@s]

Yeah wasnt there a Control the Base mode coded by lucas which was supposed to be implemented in 1.2? (Or at least was spoken about)

it was not supposed to be implemented in 1.2.
it was put on the SVN repository so as to get tested a little, without success.
The (very few) testing sessions we had led to the following conclusions :

1) most official maps aren't adapted to this gamemode.
2) the spawn system is critical, and should be considered careully. Currently, you are randomly respawning in any of your "controlled" bases, but its causing troubles when someone is retaking your base and you suddenly spawn into it.
3) some parameters (take/retake time, rate at which you get health/armor) should be tweaked

This requires :

- Discussions about how the mode /should/ actually work
- Maps to be created for this gamemode
- Heavy testing (not just to hunt bugs, but mainly to make sure the mode is playable and to find the right values for the parameters i mentioned)

Unfortunately, it would be kind too much time consuming, unless we asked a coder and a few players/mappers to work on this task specifically. BUt again, if we could find that many people to work on this gamemode, i would actually rather get them to work on something more important first.

[Oracle]

Hmmmm yea in the grand scheme of things Control the Base doesn't really fit AC's style (at least in terms of maps, regen capture maps in Sauerbraten are much bigger than most AC maps, unless we want to bring in stuff like sylang or that shipyard map that used to be in the B} maprot into the mix)

Also, I'd like to bump this

4) Z3R0, arguably the best active mapper, has offered to be map dev for this feature.

He's put in a lot of time and effort into understanding AC's mapping system, and has generally produced maps of reasonable quality. Obviously this is not an attempt to replace whoever currently handles the official maps and whatnot (RK I think?) but rather make it easier to deal with.

[Nightmare]

lucas-RR-RK-XRD-etc. all have 'full time jobs'. Might as well let active contributors contribute.
Z3R0 could do a lot of good for the official map list.

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Also, these are sexy. They'd probably help give a better first impression to the 5000 weekly download players.

http://ac-akimbo.net/showthread.php?tid=572

http://ac-akimbo.net/showthread.php?tid=1166

http://ac-akimbo.net/showthread.php?tid=183

[Luc@s]

Might as well let active contributors contribute.

They can already.

[Z3R0]

I can't do much more than post on the forum and be ignored, really. Not that I can even start talking to people or starting polls about changing the current map package when I'm not a dev, that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Anyway, nobody else is making changes to the map package as far as I know and I'm offering. You can see I'm active and knowledgeable about maps and gameplay.

[DogDancing]

I can help him too! :)

[Roflcopter]

I would like to see DogDancing and Zero take over map responsibilities. For one, they've both produced very high quality maps (ac_shine is arguably one of the best maps in AC). For two, I know they're both active. For three, I know they understand how map structure affects gameplay.

I would also like to see the lower quality maps removed. The benefits include:

• New users would no-longer vote them and then find them boring/frustrating/just not fun
  
• Competitive players would no-longer be able to pick bad maps just for an advantage
  

There are many high-quality maps that can take their place, or you can just save some space. But I can't imagine many people are getting much out of ac_snow any more for instance. It's not like these maps will suddenly not exist, just simply not be included by default.

[Oracle]

Or if you don't want to replace them, let someone (probably either Dogdancing or zero) try to improve their quality - zero put in a lot of decent effort with that ingress edit, and he has explicitly said that he is willing to do other maps as well, provided that they'll actually be considered as replacements.

[Vanquish]

zero put in a lot of decent effort with that ingress edit, and he has explicitly said that he is willing to do other maps as well, provided that they'll actually be considered as replacements.

Undead put in just as much effort, and he's said for years now that he'd be willing to do the same (he's also made changes to depot, rattrap and a few more). He's also reworked his own maps. The new iceroad was an improvement upon the old, even if it's still a relatively polarising playing experience, and his rework of cavern turned an atrocious map into something that's actually legitimately pretty fun.

I'm all for making Zero + DogDancing mapping devs, they're both capable of making excellent maps and I have great respect for both of them. However, I don't see why people aren't suggesting Undead as well, I don't think there's any mapper in the game that understands the way the game plays better than he does. If it's just a few people's personal issues with him that is the problem, then that's pretty lol tbh.


EDIT: I would also have suggested yopa as I believe he's more than qualified to take on this role too, but I talked to him about it a while ago and he said he wasn't interested.

[Z3R0]

However, I don't see why people aren't suggesting Undead as well, I don't think there's any mapper in the game that understands the way the game plays better than he does. If it's just a few people's personal issues with him that is the problem, then that's pretty lol tbh.

If I wasn't myself trying to get some kinda map dev position I'd definitely be pushing for Undead to be working on the maps. Not that there can't be multiple map devs that is. Looks like it's general reputation stopping Undead's work from reaching the official package, which is really a shame. If I did get in anyway Undead's map and gameplay knowledge would definitely be valuable and contribute to the game and I'd look to work with him on a few things at least.

[Oracle]

I would suggest Undead but I feel like that's even more of a lost cause than suggesting the other two, to be completely honest.

[Luc@s]

If I wasn't myself trying to get some kinda map dev position I'd definitely be pushing for Undead to be working on the maps. Not that there can't be multiple map devs that is. Looks like it's general reputation stopping Undead's work from reaching the official package, which is really a shame. If I did get in anyway Undead's map and gameplay knowledge would definitely be valuable and contribute to the game and I'd look to work with him on a few things at least.

Vanquish is being extremely dishonest here (nothing surprising), suggesting that Undead cannot contribute in any way just because some people don't like him.
First i would like to recall that Undead is shitting on some people 24/7 using lies and misinformation just because thats how he gets your sympathy. Thats not helpful in anyway, it actually contributed to make these forums shit, but meh.
Undead also tries to ruin everything he doesn't like - such a great mentality !

Finally Undead claims great knowledge about the gameplay for instance, and that he has plenty of ideas on how to improve the game, except he was NEVER able to give any precise idea. When i have ideas, i write them down, make a plan, discuss with other people and work on the implementation. Undead cannot even write specifications.

Also, its pretty laughable to say that Undead has a great knowledge of the gameplay when everything he says is opposed to the way the code works. I guess it works on people who have no clue (thats why his bullshiting has an effect on some people) but thats not getting you in the dev team.

[Vanquish]

Vanquish is being extremely dishonest here (nothing surprising), suggesting that Undead cannot contribute in any way just because some people don't like him.

But TBH, after what you've done to me especially during the 2011 ACWC, i had all the best reasons to ignore anything coming from you (since you were harassing me)

Yes, and I'm the dishonest one? seriously, people need to wake up and start seeing some of the idiotic things you write. We both know as well as each other that if Undead tried to contribute something, you would ignore it because it's Undead (even if some other devs might be less emotional divas and listen to him based on what he's saying rather than on their personal feelings for him). I have literally zero idea why you're trying to present yourself as a rational person, we both know (as do half of this forum) that you get far too emotionally invested in stuff like this. It's to the point where I don't even want to argue back, it's just like seeing a grown man crumble to pieces because people on an internet forum are bm'ing him. Depressing and awkward for everyone involved.


EDIT: You want to prove me wrong? Go and support Undead to be a mapping dev.

I'm hoping someone can clean this thread, or that Lucas will have the decency to take this to PM afterwards. I just don't want people to think Lucas is actually in any way an honest person or that I'm somehow lying about something that actually happened.

EDIT 2: I forgot I'm a mod now. If any more offtopic posts appear I'll delete them (including this one + Lucas' first).

[Luc@s]

We both know as well as each other that if Undead tried to contribute something, you would ignore it because it's Undead

blablabla.
Undead never formulates plans or real suggestions. So, just because he told you he can, you want to believe him ?
Last time we talked together i tried to listent o him but he was talking non sense. (everything he said was the opposite of what the code is doing lol). And he was the one beinga butt hurt, he didn't want to discuss anything, he only wanted me to say "the weapon balance is bad" or some shit like that. A real kid.
Meanwhile i've been working my ass off on the match client but for you his input is more valuable just because he told you so.

this. It's to the point where I don't even want to argue back, it's just like seeing a grown man crumble to pieces because people on an internet forum are bm'ing him. Depressing and awkward for everyone involved.

You have no idea what you're talking about, please just stop. This is insulting. If it was only about BM i would not give a fuck.

EDIT: You want to prove me wrong? Go and support Undead to be a mapping dev.

Should i support every single mapper to become a mapping dev ? Thats ridiculous. So this guy destroys what you're doing, then tell lies about the game and suddenly hes a god and you have to do all he wants (even if he never said exactly what he suggests, but only made general and inaccurate statements about the game to get some support from unaware people on the forums)

You need a little bit more than that, sorry. So no hes not getting my support, just like, exoduss would not be getting my support - get it ?

I'm hoping someone can clean this thread, or that Lucas will have the decency to take this to PM afterwards. I just don't want people to think Lucas is actually in any way an honest person or that I'm somehow lying about something that actually happened.

You were the first to suggest that Undead is not dev for "personal issues" with specific people, but thats a lie. Yes, you LIED. This is not true. Yourself admitted that to me that you had no idea about what past events involving undead were about, OK, but since you're talking about decency maybe YOU sohuld have the decency not to tell me how I should react to these events you don't know (plus its beyond ridiculous that im the one getting blamed here)

But EVEN if you omit these events, what the fuck Undead did more than other contributors to join the dev team ? If anything, he brought more shit than good.

Everytime i talked to him he was saying that the matchclient was useless, the only thing that needed to get attention was the weapon balance, and when i told him he could very well send usthe list of weapon stats he suggested he advanced stupid excuses because hes just an imposture. When it comes to actually doing or suggestiong something not very vague, undead is gone.
When you ask him how the game works, you realize he has no clue.


Should i argue aobut every single AC player why he is not a dev ?

[Nightmare]

Should i argue aobut every single AC player why he is not a dev ?

Why isn't Z3R0 a dev? :)

[Vanquish]

It's honestly awkward how you make every topic about your match client. I'm not gonna bother replying to most of your aggression but I will say that, even though I'm not his best friend (don't hate him either just saying), Exoduss would also be another solid choice for a mapping dev. I have no idea if he would be interested though.

[Luc@s]

Why isn't Z3R0 a dev? :)

so since it seems that yes, i have to argue about every single AC player, here is a possible explanation :

there are much higher priorities than new maps. so i guess (remember that i am not in charge AT ALL of managing the team, and that this is just a supposition) that since we didn't feel the need for a mapper to join the dev team then nobody was asked - also considering that you can already make maps and get them official without having git access.

One more thing to consider : some of the mappers want to decide of the entire official package, while it was made clear that maps would not be removed. (at least for a while). So basically this is all about adding maps ATM (and also making sure they are getting played in the conditions they are supposed to, but this is not the mappers job)

So in other words it was considered that mappers can already contribute in a way that satisfy all AC needs regarding this aspect so far. Since RK is MIA - and so is cleaner, i would sure like to see someone capable of managing the content. Someone who is also aware of licenses, unlike Undead for instance.
Someone who knows about Akimbo of course, how it works, etc.

[Luc@s]

It's honestly awkward how you make every topic about your match client. I'm not gonna bother replying to most of your aggression but I will say that, even though I'm not his best friend (don't hate him either just saying), Exoduss would also be another solid choice for a mapping dev. I have no idea if he would be interested though.

Because the match client is an excellent example of how a few manipulate the others to make sure i look like shit just because i've made the terrible mistakes of offering improvements i was not able to in the name of the dev team (which led you to stupidly accuse me of wanting to control things, lol) 

Exoduss is a good mapper, but thats it. And you need much more if you want more access and involvement. Anyone can make maps without being a "dev". Just like Undead (if we omit the fact undead's behavior towards some people is scandalous)

[Z3R0]

there are much higher priorities than new maps. so i guess (remember that i am not in charge AT ALL of managing the team, and that this is just a supposition) that since we didn't feel the need for a mapper to join the dev team then nobody was asked - also considering that you can already make maps and get them official without having git access.

I get that there are things that could be considered more important, but that doesn't mean that maps should be completely ignored. The map package we have right now is quite honestly not as good as it could be, whether that be it doesn't include good maps it could or has some low quality maps dragging it down and clogging it up. Some maps could also be improved for better playability, so if removing them is absolutely not an option (which is honestly ridiculous), having someone improve on the current maps is a possibility.

One more thing to consider : some of the mappers want to decide of the entire official package, while it was made clear that maps would not be removed. (at least for a while). So basically this is all about adding maps ATM (and also making sure they are getting played in the conditions they are supposed to, but this is not the mappers job)

How long must maps sit in the package unplayed and taking up space, only ever getting voted jokingly or to annoy opponents before they get removed? In all the time that AC has been around the quality of maps has increased greatly with the increase in textures and models etc. (I don't even need to tell you this, you run akimbo atm don't you? ahah), so I don't see how ac_snow (just an example, there are others also) are up to official quality. Of course with the new akimbo autodl adding maps without all the content could be possible so having a large map package without expanding the download package should be fine, right?

also considering that you can already make maps and get them official without having git access.

So in other words it was considered that mappers can already contribute in a way that satisfy all AC needs regarding this aspect so far. Since RK is MIA - and so is cleaner

Without these guys around nobody is around to focus on the maps and therefore won't add any to the official package.

At any rate the map package is not as good as it could be, and the "if it's not broken don't fix it" ideology doesn't work when people constantly complain about a declining player base. I'm not saying maps are responsible but people leave for a variety of reasons, and if you can improve all parts of the game then that's better than improving some parts of the game.

[DogDancing]

Guys were getting off topic I think. This wasn't about pushing or alienating anyone from AC, I thought this was about making AC a better game.

But I've been in this community long enough to realize most people don't like change, hey maybe I'm one of them. But seriously some people here need to grow up. Someone has to make some decisions around here and stop fighting like children, over literally toys that fell on the ground. Seriously get over it, and move on people.

[Luc@s]

I thought this was about making AC a better game.

Like i'm not trying.

[Oracle]

Then why not give them a chance?!

At the rate this game is continuing to slowly die, so something must be done. If zero and dd fail then hey, the game will continue as is. If they succeed, then this game could see a spike to continue its longevity. I know you're decent at maths Lucas so you can see the risk (or lack thereof)-reward at play here.