some suggestions

[Vinayill]

Hello everybody,
I've been playing AC from last 2 weeks. I must say its very addictive....because it is easy to play and simple but effective movements of the characters. But there are lots of bugs....latencies due to the Pj and ping. But regarding gameplay....
1. if you could make animations and assign vector movement of the character's head to the real time prospective view of the player, that would be really easy to flank that character if we know, where he was looking at. It can give us the freedom to stealth kill or dodge the hot areas. 
2. If, you could modify the code for a SMG kill. I mean it takes too many bullets to kill one player. May be 2-3 less rounds to kill a player would be lot better for the gameplay. 

[stef]

Hi Vinayill and welcome to AC.
You posted in a thread, that is reserved for testing and remarks on the development game client, so I moved your post here...

[stef]

to 1) the model is looking in the direction that the player looks, not the head - so, ignore the head and watch the whole model


to 2) I'd refer you to the discussions on weapon balance here in the forum: you'll notice that opinions tend to differ in that area :)

[Nightmare]

SMG is considered strong currently iirc.

[stef]

I would really like to put a hold on the endless weapon tweaking. Maybe just for one release...

[Honor]

SMG isn't stronger than AR.
SMG is for short range duels # AR is for long range duels.
The problem is we play on small maps with short range duels like gothic , ingress , shine , ( most played maps in inter) . So the smg is more interesting than AR
The only thing you have to do is creating maps with long range duels and people will start to play AR again.

[stef]

The AR lost attractiveness, because riflejumping is not needed, when a script can get you up that wall, no matter what weapon you're holding. I'm not sure, why we don't see more riflesprinting, though... Maybe, we should lift a few brazilian rangebans ;)

All in all - it's obvious, that not everyone is using the same weapon. That's a strong sign, that no weapon has a big advantage. Also - the sniper rifle has been the strongest weapon since the introduction of headshots in 0.93: it's the only weapon, that can deliver single-shot kills regardless of armour and distance.

[Andrej]

The AR lost attractiveness, because riflejumping is not needed, when a script can get you up that wall, no matter what weapon you're holding.

U still need (little) skill even if use bind and it only will work with smg and assault rifle

[Robtics]

Rifle sprinting is quite common in cm's and inters ;) I'd guess crowded pubs is more of a problem

[Flint]

I rifle sprint all the time, probably because of my inability to hax jump and lack of other jumping skills.

On another note, I agree with Honor, the AR is still strong, just in the current meta, it's not as viable as the SMG. Put the AR in the hands of someone like Waffles or Z3R0 and you can see it's still a good weapon when used as designed.

[Waffles]

It's a strong sign that no gun is more powerful than others. What's a bad sign is that the time to kill is so damn high and dependent on random values rather than being mostly skill based.

[Flint]

I agree with you which is why I'm not bothering to learn the new AR. I just figure by the time I get a few shots in the SMG player would have melted me.

What do you mean by random values?

[Boomhauer]

I think he means varying times between reload and fired rounds etc factoring into who can kill faster

[G1gantuan]

Regarding the current state of weapon balance in AC, I'd say that it's slightly more favorable than the era of Assault Rifle Cube. But considering all factors and variables alike, it has only stepped down to the era of Sub-machine gun Cube, which is devoid of mechanical complexity as the Assault Rifle at least favoured fluidity and rapidity of movement, which has demonstrated to be a large factor in strategics and tactics alike, going so far as to render the other weapons useless in comparison. But even that is an exaggeration as the current SMG is only slightly worse than the current AR for rifle-sprinting, and its faster reload speed evens out that slight disadvantage in certain circumstances. Like being able to fend off chasing adversaries as you're nearing your base with their flag. Imagine such situations while utilizing the AR, which has a slower reloading speed. It's most likely that these adversaries are capable SMG users which can consistently kill you in the time that it would take for a good sniper to shoot your head successfully. Basically, the SMG is currently the best fragging weapon whilst also being an adequate flagging weapon. That's an enormous advantage that the automatics in this game have over the other weapons - being able to rifle sprint. CTF obviously largely revolves around flagging, and most maps are too small to even give a damn about the "advantage" that sniper you hold would give you. Even if it counts as two points, a single frag is still a single frag. The sniper is best only for KDR whoring, and good luck even accomplishing that in inters against formidable SMG extremists.

TOP 5 weaponz in ASSAULT CUBE list
1. SMG
2. AR
3. SNIPER
4. SHOTGUN
5. CARBINE

The sniper is higher than the shotgun only because of its scarce effectivity in long-range shooting. The only map that actually favours the shotgun is ac_cavern, where snipers are given an atrocious disadvantage. It's fast paced and your targets are psychos with SMGs, ARs, and shotguns who move as fast as their bullets can. Good luck aiming at dat flagger who's able to confuse you by waltzing around the place like its a goddamn maze (which it is). The time it'll take for a good sniper to successfully track a flagger with an AR in this map is long enough for a stealth-class shotgun Cuber to successfully splatter a sniper who's trying to chase the flagger in point-blank shotgun territory range (which most of the encounters in this map are). But the shotgun was only an actual shotgun in 1.04 anyways so even if you play at 400+ ping, it's better to just use the sniper, which is weaker than the AR.

I don't need to explain why the carbine is redundant in this version. But if they reduced the damage to 50 HP for every hit and made it so that this weapon could fire the first two shots rapidly (but with a delay for every other attempt), then it would be a very viable competitive weapon considering that it ignores all armour. That's not realistic and it probably doesn't portray the capabilities of the actual real-life weapon, but neither is rifle-sprinting. This modification would make the current sniper entirely redundant but the sniper can be balanced as well... but we can also just remove the carbine entirely. Snipers are pretty common-place in most FPS (even having similar weapons like the railgun), so I don't think it would harm anyone at all except CharlieMurphy and Undead with his endless bragging about being the best Carbine user.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would continue with my detailed thoughts on an ideal version of AC but I got lazy so I will cut my post short. Long story short, the AR's rifle-sprinting power should be increased a little bit, the SMG's current offensive power is ok but it should be less effective for rifle-sprinting, the shotgun should go back to how it was in 1.04, the sniper's 80 HP damage should be increased to 90 and sniper users should get a slight speed boost in switching to the pistol, the carbine's 60 HP damage should be reduced to 50 but its fire rate should be two rapid-fire shots but with delays for every other attempt (or you can just remove this weapon entirely).

All in all there's no real substitute for experimentation so my ideas are merely speculative, but I do think that they're quite accurate to properly balance the main weapons. As for the nades I have zero clue

can some competitive player engage in discussion with me pls. ty but casual players can as well k.

[Nightmare]

Would love a shotgun redesign. Double barrel that can drop two quick shots. Huge power & huge spread.

[stef]

TOP 5 weaponz in ASSAULT CUBE list

The fact, that you think, such a ranking could be done, shows, that you have absolutely no clue about weapons balance.
There is no "best weapon". There may be a "best weapon for a specific map & mode". Asserting, that there is a single weapon, that bests every other weapon under all circumstances, just shows, that you still have not learned to think before to post. This is why weapon balance discussions usually lead nowhere.

I repeat: at this time, we don't have a dominant weapon, that has too much advantage over others independent of map & mode. Of course, on a wide, open map, a sniper has the advantage. In close tunnels, the shotgun may be best.

Most players who complain about balance simply think, it would be enough, to learn a single weapon - and then just bitch at the devs, if it isn't the best for every map & mode. Guess what... that's not how it works.

I'm not saying, that the weapon balance is perfect and should never be changed again. I just say, that it's good enough, that we can give it a rest for one release - especially, keeping in mind the endless and repeated "tweaking" of the past.

If you're not convinced: try to remember the outcome of past weapon tweak cycles. After every iteration, the bitching would start new. If we should learn one thing from the past, it is "there is no such thing as a weapons balance that pleases everyone". If the current one mostly annoys G1gantuan, I am fine with that.

[Vanquish]

There is no "best weapon".

smg is clearly better than all other weapons overall, simply because it can do so much. It's significantly better for short distances, as well as having the mobility aspect since the rate of fire + hitpush is good, and you can riflesprint with it. also, the best smg players can (quite easily) outfrag the best AR players over what would be considered a "long" distance in most official maps.

The only place the AR can outshine the smg is if you're baiting an angle with it. While the weapon balance is mostly fine atm, the AR should have some kind of damage increase, or perhaps return to the way it was in 1.1 to keep it on par with the smg.

sniper and carbine are fine, it's quite easy to aim with either of them at whatever distance, and if you're hedging your bets on a weapon that has the potential to output such high damage in one go, you deserve to die to an auto weapon if you miss your shot - there shouldn't be any second chance for you if you fuck up something that simple. contrary to what most people might suggest, a good sniper nowadays should be hitting at least 55-60% a game (I hit at least this percentage every game and even higher sometimes, and I don't consider myself a good sniper, I'm sure someone like sanzo could hit 70% consistently if he played often) [EDIT: talking about competitive games, anyone can hit literally 100% in pubs] and if he's not hitting his shots then he doesn't deserve a shit ton of kills. I don't get why people bitched so much about this in the past but it's fixed now so whatever.

The shotgun is currently underpowered, but you can still use it situationally in some maps, which is good. I don't really see a way it could be balanced any better than it is atm without overpowering it or making it even more useless.


tl;dr: give AR a boost of some sort to keep it up to par with smg, everything else is fine

[1Cap]

Where you guys analyze the weapons you guys think only in a clash 1 x 1.

It's very different a deathmatch game and a CTF game, for example.

However you guys forget to analyze factors such as; sound, shooting distance, cadence,  far and near damage, the existence of other players of your team around, map strategy, etc.
A double attack with a carbine and a smg is devastating. \0
There are combos of weapons, sniper + pistol, nade + sniper, etc.
Think that there are combos for your mates atacks in team games. Each player with a different weapon can make a difference in the strategy of the game. Not just  all your time using SMG...

Shotgun has an easier aiming and does a good damage even middle distance, I usually shoot to slow down the enemy and to reduce your life. This way my team can go easier because the enemy is weak. I often prefer to shoot and do some damage in 2 or 3 enemies instead of killing just one.
I believe that the arms balance in the game is very good. The hardest weapon is the carbine, but it is a very powerful weapon, strong and with fast reload speed.
You need to analyze many other factors.

[DeafieGamer]

No and no

[G1gantuan]

TOP 5 weaponz in ASSAULT CUBE list

The fact, that you think, such a ranking could be done, shows, that you have absolutely no clue about weapons balance.
There is no "best weapon". There may be a "best weapon for a specific map & mode". Asserting, that there is a single weapon, that bests every other weapon under all circumstances, just shows, that you still have not learned to think before to post. This is why weapon balance discussions usually lead nowhere.

I didn't actually disregard the continuous factor, that is, the limitations set by a limited map - I suppose I didn't word my second sentence carefully enough. I also didn't disregard the other game modes, it's just that I didn't want to make my post too long, so here we are. I also didn't assert that "there is a single weapon that bests every other weapon under all circumstances", that's just your inability to carefully comprehend the implications of my ranking list. While it was specifically targeted towards CTF, the other game modes are still played in the same maps anyway, so what drastic differences are you actually referring to? From what competitive experiences do you infer that my ranking list is ABSOLUTELY invalid? Oh wait, do you even play competitively? So many questions. But I'll address the prioritization of my ranking list:

1. Weapon Versatility (the weapon's consistent effectivity in tackling all kinds of situations under all ranges of shooting)
2. Aiming Intensity (the raw ability needed to aim a weapon in its proper method consistently)
3. Weapon Technicalities (the actual capabilities of the weapon; built-in game mechanics, damage output, reloading speed, capacity of ammunition)
4. Dynamic Environment Interaction (the best strategic and tactical courses of action in handling a specific weapon in a specific map under specific circumstances)

After having played at least 20-30 inters against varyin- I mean, SMG users who didn't have any distinctive characteristics, these four factors are what I believe to have been most abundant throughout my competitive AC career.

Weapon balance discussions won't go anywhere when the leading developer is just an extremist who assumes that everything he knows and thinks must be correct without actually undergoing what his players are actually undergoing.

I also just wanted a discussion, not an aggressive debate. But of course your inability to properly comprehend my sentences would lead to your formulation of arguments without substance, and a sneaky implementation of ad hominem. All the while completely disregarding my points, well done. You're exactly like Mr. Floppy, repeating the same useless statements over and over while attacking the character and credibility of the person he's arguing with when his conceptions differ/he can't understand the arguments he's given.

TOP 5 weaponz in ASSAULT CUBE list

I repeat: at this time, we don't have a dominant weapon, that has too much advantage over others independent of map & mode. Of course, on a wide, open map, a sniper has the advantage. In close tunnels, the shotgun may be best.

Congratulations, you have successfully demonstrated your inexperience in a subject that you so confidently barged in with apparently divine knowledge.

TOP 5 weaponz in ASSAULT CUBE list

Most players who complain about balance simply think, it would be enough, to learn a single weapon - and then just bitch at the devs, if it isn't the best for every map & mode. Guess what... that's not how it works.

I don't know where you pulled this fact from, but it's not really relevant to properly balancing the weapons.

TOP 5 weaponz in ASSAULT CUBE list

I'm not saying, that the weapon balance is perfect and should never be changed again. I just say, that it's good enough, that we can give it a rest for one release - especially, keeping in mind the endless and repeated "tweaking" of the past.
If you're not convinced: try to remember the outcome of past weapon tweak cycles. After every iteration, the bitching would start new. If we should learn one thing from the past, it is "there is no such thing as a weapons balance that pleases everyone". If the current one mostly annoys G1gantuan, I am fine with that.

Still doesn't change the fact that the weapon balance has currently gravitated the competitive scene to SMG only plays.

"I'm not saying, that the weapon balance is perfect and should never be changed again."

"there is no such thing as a weapons balance that pleases everyone"

Lol.

Rational minds don't care about not being able to get easy headshots in this game while aiming at targets that move at 500 mph, they care about proper weapon balance. That shouldn't be too difficult to understand. It's actually quite an accurate statement, but it should be "there is no such thing as everyone isn't stupid", then it's correct.

There is no "best weapon".

The only place the AR can outshine the smg is if you're baiting an angle with it. While the weapon balance is mostly fine atm, the AR should have some kind of damage increase, or perhaps return to the way it was in 1.1 to keep it on par with the smg.

No, the AR doesn't need to be changed, only the SMG does, and that's by decreasing the push-back of the weapon, eliminating its viability as a "flagging weapon".

There is no "best weapon".

sniper and carbine are fine, it's quite easy to aim with either of them at whatever distance, and if you're hedging your bets on a weapon that has the potential to output such high damage in one go, you deserve to die to an auto weapon if you miss your shot - there shouldn't be any second chance for you if you fuck up something that simple. contrary to what most people might suggest, a good sniper nowadays should be hitting at least 55-60% a game (I hit at least this percentage every game and even higher sometimes, and I don't consider myself a good sniper, I'm sure someone like sanzo could hit 70% consistently if he played often) [EDIT: talking about competitive games, anyone can hit literally 100% in pubs] and if he's not hitting his shots then he doesn't deserve a shit ton of kills. I don't get why people bitched so much about this in the past but it's fixed now so whatever.

No, they're underpowered (lol at carbine, the most underpowered weapon, being fine). They're harder to aim with consistently than either of the automatic weapons (which are equally or even more effective in most circumstances), and if we want to reduce our arguments to simplistic statistics, then we probably shouldn't be arguing anyways. The sniper is theoretically the best weapon, but that's assuming that there's a human being out there that can play an entire game against highly competent players without ever missing a single headshot, or any shot for that matter.

Yes, everyone knows that there are higher standards of skill for a weapon to be successfully utilized against inferior players who use an overpowered automatic gun. Your point? Also, percentages don't mean anything. Anyone with above average aim can hit 50% LG consistently against a nub who doesn't even strafe (quake reference). Your argument surprises me

There is no "best weapon".

The shotgun is currently underpowered, but you can still use it situationally in some maps, which is good. I don't really see a way it could be balanced any better than it is atm without overpowering it or making it even more useless.

It should be reverted back to the 1.04 shotgun. A shotgun should be a shotgun

There is no "best weapon".

tl;dr: give AR a boost of some sort to keep it up to par with smg, everything else is fine

k. but no k. go play quake live CA with lg only if you like, but pls don't reduce this potentially complex game into hitscan drooling madness.
If the weapons were properly balanced then DYNAMIC WEAPON UTILIZATION would be introduced, meaning that no player will solely use the SMG for the entire game. I would give this concept at least three paragraphs of detail but I will finish my post k.

[Vanquish]

No, they're underpowered (lol at carbine, the most underpowered weapon, being fine). They're harder to aim with consistently than either of the automatic weapons (which are equally or even more effective in most circumstances), and if we want to reduce our arguments to simplistic statistics, then we probably shouldn't be arguing anyways. The sniper is theoretically the best weapon, but that's assuming that there's a human being out there that can play an entire game against highly competent players without ever missing a single headshot, or any shot for that matter.

Carbine is fine, re-read my post. I'm describing the way weapon balance works at what would be called a "competitive" or "high" level in AssaultCube, not pubs. If you want to reply in a huge essay about why my idea of weapon balance isn't perfect for public games, go ahead, you're probably right, but I just don't care. Public games can adapt to a weapon balance designed with competitive gaming in mind, but not vice versa.

The carbine is fine the way it is at a high level. If you don't miss a shot, it's possible to kill an unarmoured smg opponent short range faster than he kills you (providing you're not standing still/moving like a bot). This is the way non-auto weapons should be. If you miss a shot, you should get punished, and the kill should be denied. If you increase the rate of fire or the damage output of a carbine (or add something dumb like ignoring armour), it will make it incredibly overpowered for those people who can hit upwards of 70% a game with it in competitive matches.
There is no way you can introduce a gentler learning curve to this gun without making it overpowered, it's a high risk high reward gun (I hesitate to even say high risk, because it's more just about the skill of the person using it as there are no random factors such as spread involved).

Granted, it was underpowered in 1.1 since if someone had a helmet you needed three shots to kill them, however (partial) armour piercing fixed that for 1.2 imo.

only the SMG does, and that's by decreasing the push-back of the weapon, eliminating its viability as a "flagging weapon".

So you basically want to take what was bad about the transition from 1.1 to 1.2 and make it worse? This game has slowed down considerably from such a transition, the fact you want to add the possibility to slow it down even further shows me you have literally zero (yes not even a slight exaggeration here, zero, zilch, kaput, whatever) idea about the way the game is competitively atm. What you're essentially saying is that you want to create a dedicated fragging weapon which is only useful to defend or hold positions in maps.

The only reason 1.2 isn't completely boring now is because the overpowered frag-heavy weapon everybody plays (smg) is incredibly good for pushing. Why on earth would you want to get rid of that factor as opposed to giving another weapon that factor and thus increasing the viability of weapons that can be played competitively whilst also retaining fun?

I really don't know how much more I can go over this point since I've said everything, I just hope you read it and take it in. It's not a personal attack but please don't make silly suggestions like this because there's a chance a developer may actually take them seriously for some reason and listen to them.

Also, percentages don't mean anything. Anyone with above average aim can hit 50% LG consistently against a nub who doesn't even strafe (quake reference).

Percentages with hitscan weapons don't mean anything, due to four factors: spam/prefires, riflesprinting, lag, and spread. With one-shot weapons it's different, and also you know I'm not referring to noobs who don't even strafe, I even said in competitive games. I played a inter yesterday on power after I wrote that post and hit 73% with sniper (42/57 shots hit). It's really not difficult to aim with sniper, and I'm not even a high level sniper player. I have no idea if you ever saw someone such as Sanzo or (when he was on his peak) Melone play (not gonna mention alive inb4 someone says it lol) but they don't have trouble hitting people at all. Melone even thought the sniper balance in 1.1 was fine, he was just that good with it that he could rape all but the very best AR players with it. Even most good snipers now would probably agree that the weapon is fine the way it is atm. I have absolutely no idea what you're basing your "sniper is underpowered" argument is on, but you don't need to hit every single shot to play it well. Again, most snipers play situationally on maps anyway instead of pushing the same way an smg player would, so you can't compare the two in that regard.

It should be reverted back to the 1.04 shotgun. A shotgun should be a shotgun

Never played 1.0, but the shotgun is not a bad competitive weapon on some maps atm, you just have to play it correctly. I honestly don't think a boost would hurt it though, but some testing would be required to make sure any buffs would be regulated correctly.

go play quake live CA with lg only if you like, but pls don't reduce this potentially complex game into hitscan drooling madness.

Hitscan aim isn't even rewarded properly atm so I don't even know what you're talking about. I genuinely believe that the weapon balance I have (albeit briefly) outlined in this post and my previous one is the best you could get for competitive AssaultCube without also impacting public gameplay much either.

If I wanted to write a post on "vanquish's personal balance" that would only take into consideration my own ideal weapon balance, all automatic weapons would have zero spread and low recoil but lower damage and limited range, the shotgun would be reverted back to 1.1's sg, and the akimbo powerup would be replaced by something like the BS in quake which allows the user to absorb say, 50% of damage in addition to whatever armour/health they currently have. I would personally find this balance the most enjoyable, but it's way too divisive to be implemented in the game so I'm not even gonna write anything else about it.
I'm only actually proposing serious ideas that I think would make the game on the whole more enjoyable for everybody based on about three years of experience playing this game at a somewhat high and then later a high skill level, and some things even go against what I personally believe would be more enjoyable for the sake of making the game more globally enjoyable.


I'm interested in hearing about your dynamic weapon utilisation, although mostly because I'm confused as to how you'd force someone to switch between weapons in game.

[Boomhauer]

These forums are so hard to read now. Bloated.
Also, the weapon balance is fine. Nothing needs to be done in that respect. It needs to be accepted as how it is regardless of varied opinions left alone and we move on to doing other things

[Marti]

There is no "best weapon". There may be a "best weapon for a specific map & mode".

I repeat: at this time, we don't have a dominant weapon, that has too much advantage over others independent of map & mode. Of course, on a wide, open map, a sniper has the advantage. In close tunnels, the shotgun may be best.

Most players who complain about balance simply think, it would be enough, to learn a single weapon - and then just bitch at the devs, if it isn't the best for every map & mode. Guess what... that's not how it works.

stef you obviously dont play ac. SMG vs medium sniper on an open map and the SMG wins. SMG vs medium shotgun, SMG wins. another example: i have heard many players complain about it being very hard to splatter someone in 1.2, so the only time i think shotgun>any weapon is when you stand within 1cm from each other and you shoot your enemy. before you start some argument that i dont know all weapons, i do. SMG is just the best pick overall for any map/mode.

There is no "best weapon".

sniper and carbine are fine, it's quite easy to aim with either of them at whatever distance, and if you're hedging your bets on a weapon that has the potential to output such high damage in one go, you deserve to die to an auto weapon if you miss your shot - there shouldn't be any second chance for you if you fuck up something that simple. contrary to what most people might suggest, a good sniper nowadays should be hitting at least 55-60% a game (I hit at least this percentage every game and even higher sometimes, and I don't consider myself a good sniper, I'm sure someone like sanzo could hit 70% consistently if he played often) [EDIT: talking about competitive games, anyone can hit literally 100% in pubs] and if he's not hitting his shots then he doesn't deserve a shit ton of kills. I don't get why people bitched so much about this in the past but it's fixed now so whatever.

No, they're underpowered (lol at carbine, the most underpowered weapon, being fine). They're harder to aim with consistently than either of the automatic weapons (which are equally or even more effective in most circumstances) The sniper is theoretically the best weapon, but that's assuming that there's a human being out there that can play an entire game against highly competent players without ever missing a single headshot, or any shot for that matter.

carbine and sniper arent underpowered, i assume you just cant handle them properly with your 1000000 ping and 5fps. the sniper, if you can hit, is actually a very nice weapon. also please tell me, why have pubs changed from people using shotgun only to sniper only? that cant be because the sniper is underpowered. i have played quite a few competitive games using sniper and played against a sniper that hit at least 70%, and it is a very usefull weapon fragwise. the only way it is underpowered compared to automatic guns is that you cant riflesprint with it :D

[Nightmare]

Unhits. Unhits everywhere.

[Halte]

The sniper is too op in modes such as osok and tosok that's a fact! I can provide stats...

[Waffles]

@flint,
I was mainly talking about how spread is calculated. Instead of being consistent and knowable, it is randomly generated with progressively greater values per shot fired in a 'box' around the player. I'm not saying that there should not be spread, just that it should be less random and therefore able to be learned. This would raise the skill cap of learning a weapon and reward players who actually take the time to learn proper aim and how to control the weapon. Those are the random values I mentioned.

Concerning time to kill,
Pre 1.2 it was possible to kill an enemy much faster due to higher damage of some weapons, less punishment for some weapons (recoil, spread, kickback, etc.) and less weight given to armour. Currently a mildly armored opponent takes a large amount of bullets to actually kill which causes a few problems. Awareness of enemy positioning (that 1-2 bullet advantage you can get for knowing where the enemy may be because of timings/sneaks etc.) is greatly reduced as an asset. Concurrently, an enemy can engage from distance, back off, re-engage multiple times without either player dying. While not necessarily something that can't be countered, this particular issue significantly slows play of this 'arcade' shooter.

For example, imagine outpost (a very slow map as is). A player who is tunnels side (or mid) can get chip on the opponent, back off to re-cooperate, and come back to finish an enemy. This very simply tactic exploits map functionality that gives net gain in positioning to the side with better angles or the side with more pickups. A team should be (if they are competing) try and understand all these things about the game, however, it is my belief that if time to kill was lower (i.e. guns more powerful across the board) the game would speed back up.

With regards to auto-weapons,
It is obvious that smg and ar are both superior in application to 'single-shot' weapons simply because of their utility. Removing rifle-sprinting or nerfing it would significantly slow the game just as removing edge-jumping would. If these are features that are going to be removed or tweaked, that hit in speed would bring the gameplay to a style of play more akin to counterstrike than quake.

Obviously there are a lot of variables to contend with that make players unhappy. Who knows how the meta would change if single-shot weapons were somehow given utility. What I do know to be true (and has been stated by many players in the scene) is the game has gotten slower. Bait cube ftw

[RKTnoob]

@ Vanquish:
It is incorrect to say that the carbine has the faster time to kill an unarmored opponent as the smg as it doesn't. Assuming 100% accuracy on both sides, Carbine takes 720ms to kill an unarmored opponent, while the smg takes 480ms. It's even possible for the smg user to miss two shots and hit on the third, and he will still kill his opponent on 720ms.

Here, you can take a look: http://forum.cubers.net/thread-7491.html

Numbers indicate that the sniper is the most powerful weapon, followed by the smg, ar and then the carbine. I can't say anything about the shotgun, as the dmg is not quantifiable due to it's nature. On average, the closer you are the deadlier the shotgun gets.

In my opinion, the sniper is overpowered, not only does it have headshots, it's pistol combo is on par with the akimbo for time to kill, there is no spread on it whatsoever while scoping, and it will grant you gibs in some cases. Even without shooting headshots, you can go for the pistol combo and still have the fastest time to kill in the game, barring a point blank shotgun blast.

The smg is better than AR almost across the board, even if you miss one shot with it, you still have a chance, while missing with the AR gives a greater penalty because of it's slower fire rate.

The carbine is so weak, the pistol, which is a secondary weapon, outperforms it in some cases.

I don't know what should or could be changed, there are numerous factors involved, not just the raw numbers.

[Vanquish]

Numbers are the single most redundant factor when trying to balance weapons. You can't assume that an smg player will hit 100% of his bullets when he engages with a carbine. I didn't read anything else you wrote about the theoretically quickest possible time to kill in ms, simply because it's all theoretical and has little to no relevance in practical application.

Waffles and Marti [EDIT: and Honor, read below] are also correct.

[Honor]

@ Vanquish:
It is incorrect to say that the carbine has the faster time to kill an unarmored opponent as the smg as it doesn't. Assuming 100% accuracy on both sides, Carbine takes 720ms to kill an unarmored opponent, while the smg takes 480ms. It's even possible for the smg user to miss two shots and hit on the third, and he will still kill his opponent on 720ms.

You're not supposed to be in front line with the carabine. If you do that means you're not using it correctly.
If you play carabine in a match, you're supposed to be a support who always stay behind and helps your teammates to push.
Carabine is the most overpowered weapon and the most skillcapped, people are just stupid.

[RKTnoob]

"It's even possible for the smg user to miss two shots and hit on the third, and he will still kill his opponent on 720ms." ....which is how much it takes for a carbine to kill you, assuming 100% accuracy with it. Note that the smg user is not on 100% accuracy, and can still stay on par with a carbine user who is.

The only advantage I see for the carbine, is that is not a "hitscan" weapon, meaning you can shoot and duck behind cover, thus, even if I rarely play it myself, it's obvious what kind of tactics are of the most utility with it.

If I would change something about the weapon balance in the game, I would nerf the sniper/pistol combo a bit, boost the carbine stats so pistol comboing is much easier with it (currently, it has the worst pistol combos in the game), and give it gibs in cases where applicable.

As for the SMG balance, I would reduce the kickback to make it less of a rifle sprint weapon, and increase the spread, so it has a harder time hitting stuff on longer ranges.

With this in mind the AR could even out with the SMG a bit because of the lower spread on it, even if it has a higher recoil.

The pistol is okay with it being to kill a 100/100 opponent if you manage 100% accuracy with it (It can kill a 100/100 opponent with exactly a full clip), but if it was to change it should be considered carefully because it can combo with most weapons. I would like to see more spread on it, as most rl pistols are considered weapons for useful engagement ranges around 50m, so Some kind of a larger spread would be in order, so long range fighting with the pistol becomes next to useless.

As far as Akimbo goes, It should be even deadlier, as the sniper combo is on par with it. You can burn through an akimbo clip really fast, so you need to constantly reload. This could maybe be made so it has better damage, but a shorter clip, making it really deadly 1v1, but the reload amount will probably be fatal with more enemies in view. I'm not sure if it would be maybe better if the akimbo would not be just a double pistol but another weapon or a powerup of some kind, so that any pistol balancing doesn't mean the akimbo gets modified by it, thus, making it easier to balance because it would be a separate case.

I don't play the shotgun much, and it's a hard weapon to quantify due to it's nature, but if you're gonna change anything, maybe make it more like a real shotgun, with a faster firing speed, and a really long reload time. This would mean that while you have bullets in your clip (7) you are a force to be reckoned with, but when you run out of bullets, due to a really long reload time, you better be somewhere safe else you're not going to end up well.

The most questions I have is on two issues, the sniper-pistol combo and the overall weakness of the carbine.