AC as a competitive game

[Minty]

Just wanted to hear some of your thoughts on this subject.

I feel that the learning curve for AC is much lower than for some other shooters that are vaguely similar in some respects (Urban Terror and Counter-Strike come to mind). Before the hate train leaves the station, let me say that I love Assault Cube. Fantastic game that I am honored to be a part of.

One of the most rewarding aspects of competitive online gaming is accomplishing goals of rising up in skill through practice and dedication. This is reflected in the skill gap between newer players and veterans, which feels slightly absent in AC versus some other games that require much more skill to succeed at. I'm honestly not very good, but I would say I'm around average. Possibly. Dunno.

Not to say that AC does not require skill nor to say that I feel like it is just a dumbed-down version of CS 1.6 or Urban Terror (far from it), I was curious as to what the community, especially the veterans, think about this -- about AC's competitive nature and how it compares to other shooters. Do you feel that AC is too simplistic to warrant serious competition? Or do you feel that AC is in a good place? If you think it's gameplay is too barebones to warrant a serious pickup/league scene, what would you change to make it a harder, more intensive, and harder game to succeed at?

I'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas.

[Woolly]

All I'll say for a game that isn't overly hard to play (And I completely agree that is isn't that difficult) there are certainly a lot of people who can't play it very well. :D

[Alien]

before you start to discuss about it ... it is "Quake" vs "CS" , it is very important to understand. Something from Quake and something from CS. What is sniper ? Railgun or sniper from CS ? Sauer is more quake.

I hope it will never be clean CS or clean Quake, AC would be dead.

Edit:
Ok, Learning curve, definition of real skill, etc. are connected with the configuration the panel below:


|Quake speed req. | <----------------------------> |AC speed req.| <------> |CS speed req.|


|Quake teamplay req. | <----> |AC teamplay req.| <------------------------> |CS teamplay req.|

accuracy req.
etc...

noobs are slow and don't cooperate, if we want to set the game for noobs, the panel should be ...

[Minty]

before you start to discuss about it ... it is "Quake" vs "CS" , it is very important to understand. Something from Quake and something from CS. What is sniper ? Railgun or sniper from CS ? Sauer is more quake.

I hope it will never be clean CS or clean Quake, AC would be dead.

Oh, I was just referencing the skill gaps in those games versus games like AC. Not necessarily the gameplay.

[Nightmare]

I don't think simple-ness holds back competitive play. The game still takes a high quality of skill and strategy that most who play haven't mastered, including myself. Though I do think adding classes would add to the strategy and depth of the game. And even help with balance.

[ElCrema]

Dunno if agree with you here, Minty. Although "gun handling" its not very hard to master up to a decent level, that is just one aspect of becoming a good player.

Take myself as an example. I've been playing AC for quite a while now, I perform pretty well with all weapons (I'm a Knife Master), I know my way around the maps and if you watch me play a pub you will see that I sure can kill (lots) and yet I struggle on a match against players that can't aim half as well as I can. Caus again, handling the guns is the easy part of the thing, it only demands time and a little bit of dedication while the other tactical aspects of the game (and those are the ones that truly make the good players) are much harder to acquire. I personally got to a point where I'm just to busy and too old to spend shit loads of time studying maps, demos and training tactics just to figure among the top 50 players of an online game. I come to AC simply to kill some nubs in a full pub and crack jokes with some very good friend I made around here.
As of lately I started to change an opinion that I had for quite some time: that of AC should concentrate in a balance good for pubs. I see now that this is kinda senseless, since the pubers come here just for kicks. The devs should concentrate in the competitive side of thing and we pubers and weekend players will sure adapt.

[Roflcopter]

The devs should concentrate in the competitive side of thing and we pubers and weekend players will sure adapt.

This point is particularly worth emphasising. Competitive balance is far more fragile than public balance because competitive play is only a matter of gaining a slight edge. Back when legacy first started, versus many teams this advantage was using Mumble. Today you see it with LC timing their attacks better than we currently do (although not for too much longer!).

[CharlyMurphie]

Its just the nature of the beast in any game, free or not. There will always be noobs and some people just adjust a little faster in my opinion. @Minty, have you ever tried playing in an inter? They can be very competitive (OR NOT) :p . CS is so full of chets as well as QL. In both of those games I watched many of player go from zero to hero in a matter of matches( not days or months) I think AC has many angles. I even make-up my own shit and just Kill the Camper(KTC):p , but you have to camp to kill it (him/her) Anyways I'm pleasantly pleased for this game and haven't paid a dime.



P.S I'll tell ya later Cool posts (I know you werent talking about those games Just Saying)

[Orynge]

AC stands up well because it is such a simple game. You don't need to put as much effort into playing competitively as you would with other games.

[MorganKell]

AC has some exceptional circumstances that if taken advantage of properly will allow it to not only succeed but even excel at the competitive level. The maps and the guns are constantly evolving but the tactics and the strategy required to become good and downright versatile still demand a level of focus and dedication that is rare elsewhere. We also have a solid playerbase that is not determined by whether or not they have the money to play, but by the desire to play. AC finds the shimmies who for whatever reason can't play the other games you mentioned, CS and Quake and URT and gives them a chance to shine without any financial burdens. AC will forever be played because it's simple to learn, hard + easy to get good at, and it rewards a desire to THROWDOWN old school style!

The problem we're currently experiencing is finding a balance between competition and casual. Games by definition are supposed to be fun. They are aesthetically pleasing to their genre. AC is a realistic shooter that focuses it's gameplay on real life. Many people find this enjoyable because they don't have to contemplate such foreign concepts as aliens, plasma rifles, boom jump thrust smorgasborg flying space grapes, or time travel (xept lag). AC mirrors real life. It's maps are richly detailed and so tactically that it's as if one were really there, in the heat of battle, canteen in hand, taking a sip, sniper in the other, yearning for the coveted Pink Mist. It's a game that with a little imagination puts you on the battlefield. Yet you never forget that you are playing a game and that's the fun part. You choose the time, the place, and the action. You choose your AC experience. This is the essence of this game. This is why we play.

AC should offer everyone, regardless of who they are, where they connect from (with exception ofc, GET SUM BRAZIL :P) the opportunity to play endlessly. There should always be a consideration for the noobs, newbs, and newfs, that play our game and give our new talent the trials by fire they need to get good.

Competition... ESL much? Yeah I remember that. It was a joke not because the idea was bad but because ESL was so poorly organized and so ridiculously administered that one couldn't help but wonder Why In DAFUQ are we WHAAAT? Don't get me wrong. ESL was AWESOME!! I remember the excitement of our first matches. Everyone was IRC'd on XChat (least that's what I used) and we were all itching to play. You could feel it. This silly little shooter that we were apart of was becoming something. We could win stuff here. We could win money?? NO WAY!!! Yes this was actually possible at the time. It was new and it was beautiful... oh so beautiful! The reason this feeling didn't last was because there was no communication between the clans. There was no communication between main AC and the fringe. What we needed was a group effort to truly pull everyone together. What we needed was a shimmy to take all of our concerns and complaints, our issues and our problems, and reassure us that this would work and that it AC would be just what it had always been... Awesome.

Eradicating or ignoring different sides of a game in favor of a general direction is never a good idea. By definition it narrows the focus and potential for true development. It crushes idea in their birthing stages and steals greatness from the AC before we even have a chance to see it. No idea, no new thought, no spark of inspiration, should ever be relegated to a single direction, a single purpose, with no consideration of it's possible effects on other aspects of the game.

Competition is good. AC is very very VERY competitive. It has the potential for a true league, born not of foreign entities, realized not by outsiders who have no understanding of what AC truly is, but by those who've dedicated their time and effort to keeping it alive and fragging. A league of our own, that offers fabulous prizes, that inspires and motivates players to new, higher levels of mastery, to more exquisitely lethal artistry.

Here's what we need.

1) A respected and established method of posting demos. We also need a site from which to view them. As well as a method of labeling and cataloging them.

2) We need a form of Team Recognition. Some kind of rewards or badges that acknowledge a player's skill and their accomplishments stretching from past matches and into the future.

3) In regards to #2 we'd need an established ranking system. Something that we can shoot for. Clan ladders are an example but we need something supported by Main AC i.e. the forums, the dev team, the mod squad, and the vets.

4) This one is probably being discussed in the TPG but we need a set Match Rules. A list of the do's and dont's that encompasses match play and will help formalize it. Many matches are played and won or lost by screenshot, time to play or no?, and demo posting on a clan site. The AC Forums should have either a dedicated website / page / board just for clan matches and posting of the results. The same thing should be done for competitions like the AC Weekend Cups and the AC World Cup.

5) We shouldn't stop at World Cup and and Weekend Cups and Two Girls One Cup? (srry had to do it :D). Let's instead take the most prestigious sports event and make qualifiers out of them? Say we have an AC Universal Cup. All the nations would have their respective epic event to determine who plays. North America could have a AC World Series or AC Superbowl for example. Canada could have the AC Stanley Cup... etc etc. (Only ones I could think of off the top of my head, sorry don't get abroad much :/ -meep- AC World Tour -meep- eventually...)

6) The real problem is that ideas such as these need to be supported by Main AC. What is Main AC you ask? It's AssaultCube made and supported by the devs and their solid community of veterans who value AssaultCube's RISE ABOVE ALL other games. The forums need to open up to the possibilities. They need to delve into the risks and give many things a shot. If something doesn't work? Simply cross it out and move on to the next idea. The AC Forums give anything they support the credibility of being downright awesome and having the full weight of legitimate AssaultCube behind them. That says a lot to the masses of players we have out there in the wings.

7) Never give up. This is of utmost importance. You don't play AC for anyone but yourself. Because you are a true shimmy and the very essence of awesome you take pride in playing a game that's so underground. You take pride in being one of the resistance. One of the shimmies who plays for fun first, competition second, and downright awesomeness last. Everything AC is everything you want in a game. It may lack at times, it may even suck at times (rare), but you started playing for a reason, and you loved it for a reason. Never forget that reason. Revive that reason and bring yourself back to AssaultCube because you never give up. WE NEVER GIVE UP.

AC will remain in our hearts and minds forever no matter what happens. We're better than just a summation of our parts. AC WILL NEVER DIE. AC will be a league of it's own. AC will COMPETE with all the other leagues out there and WE WILL establish our dominance, our preeminence among those titans of the gaming world because we have the greatest playerbase, the greatest community, and the most BADASS EPIC GAME EVER.

[Orynge]

1) A respected and established method of posting demos.

I've seen something like it, and hopefully it gets released for the public sometime soon.

3) In regards to #2 we'd need an established ranking system. Something that we can shoot for. Clan ladders...

I also know a person who (between breaks) has been hard at work over this.

4) This one is probably being discussed in the TPG but we need a set Match Rules.
5) We shouldn't stop at World Cup and and Weekend Cups and Two Girls One Cup? (srry had to do it :D). Let's instead take the most prestigious sports event and make qualifiers out of them? Say we have an AC Universal Cup.

I completely agree/awesome idea.

5) We shouldn't stop at World Cup and and Weekend Cups and Two Girls One Cup? (srry had to do it :D). Let's instead take the most prestigious sports event and make qualifiers out of them? Say we have an AC Universal Cup.

Awesome idea.

Kudos for the incredibly awesome post, MK.

[pweaks]

CS is so full of chets as well as QL.

What? We're talking about competitive gaming, not pubbing. Of course there are cheaters, every fps game has them. But on competitive level that is not true, if you cheat you will be "blacklisted" and you have no business in competitive gaming anymore.

[YourSister]

this is my problem:

1 - i wanna play a good match or inter in AC
2 - i enter w00p ts
3 - i enter AC.
4 - well, what should i do now? there are guys doing inter in a closed server, no way to get in there, there are many players idling in TS... pubs are boring, they are so full of noobs, i enter them just for the far hope that someone ask me for inter...

[Woolly]

In the Closed/Open Alpha/Beta of Hawken proper competitive play was a huge issue. People found it incredibly hard to get organized and having clan matches was almost impossible. The community demanded clan support and now they will be testing it in the coming days, the same thing is happening with Sc2 and many other games.

It may make sense to offer proper clan support to the game, rather than just slapping on a tag and playing all over the place... have a few dedicated non-clan owned match servers, allow clan mates, pubbers, and everyone else spectate matches, these are just a few ideas. I'm sure those who compete in AC would have heaps of ideas on the subject.

[pweaks]

this is my problem:

1 - i wanna play a good match or inter in AC
2 - i enter w00p ts
3 - i enter AC.
4 - well, what should i do now? there are guys doing inter in a closed server, no way to get in there, there are many players idling in TS... pubs are boring, they are so full of noobs, i enter them just for the far hope that someone ask me for inter...

I've been asking for that pickup bot for months. I thought it's easy to code, shouldn't be a hard task for guys in this community who are capable of doing code stuff. I would appreciate it.

[vonunov]

Wow, Morgan, you really are an INFP.

I love all that and hope something comes of it.

[Edward]

this is my problem:

1 - i wanna play a good match or inter in AC
2 - i enter w00p ts
3 - i enter AC.
4 - well, what should i do now? there are guys doing inter in a closed server, no way to get in there, there are many players idling in TS... pubs are boring, they are so full of noobs, i enter them just for the far hope that someone ask me for inter...

same for me :(

[Nightmare]

Also for the free shooters comparison, Open Source games tend to focus on balance where free-to-play like Combat Arms, etc. tend to be pay to win and the balance on those games can get screwy fast. This was the reason I came to AC. Balance isn't perfect here yet, but it at least gets worked on.

[Oracle]

ESL was good...'till people started abusing the ranking system (I forget who - might have been a minor thing) and that markelhoff dude started challenging everybody (oh hi jv) he saw.
AC needs tournaments run by experienced, competitive people in AC. ESL would have been good, except, even though the guys there were good at running competitions n stuff, it wasn't an AC thing.
Larry's been doing a decent job when it comes to this stuff, gotta give him some credit. Comparatively, AC's not in a bad place (since it's mainly games that cost money where people get hyped up about it - SC2 tournaments anyone? lol).

Edit: ACinter has made a return to IRC, has it not? That was pretty good, maybe extend that to a teamspeak bot (if that's possible?)?

[Woolly]

ESL was good...'till people started abusing the ranking system (I forget who - might have been a minor thing) and that markelhoff dude started challenging everybody (oh hi jv) he saw.
AC needs tournaments run by experienced, competitive people in AC. ESL would have been good, except, even though the guys there were good at running competitions n stuff, it wasn't an AC thing.
Larry's been doing a decent job when it comes to this stuff, gotta give him some credit. Comparatively, AC's not in a bad place (since it's mainly games that cost money where people get hyped up about it - SC2 tournaments anyone? lol).

Edit: ACinter has made a return to IRC, has it not? That was pretty good, maybe extend that to a teamspeak bot (if that's possible?)?

Might be worth looking into the ESL thing again and see if the community can make a go of it this time, weed out the idiots and abusers and try to create something stable and long lasting.

[Oracle]

Might be worth looking into the ESL thing again and see if the community can make a go of it this time, weed out the idiots and abusers and try to create something stable and long lasting.

Yeah, perhaps Larry?

[Waffles]

fundog did a good job with it. The problem i think came from ESl's admins not giving him enough lee-way. Possibly due to how it ended the time before that, they were letting us have a test run. Not sure how it went down, that might've been nice to see in the FD interview.

I agree with MK.... a lot. I don't think we need to go back to ESL, but we could incorporate ESL's points. Undead has said it and now others have, a way to find games quickly as soon as you connect, either via the game or a website.

A true ranking system (both teams and individuals) supported by the website.

Clan and competitive support. We've been seeing more of this recently, and I don't think anyone is slouching necessarily. Which brings me to...

Initiative! There are few players in this game that actually have the know-how to create things like this. There are those of us that will stream/cast games, but have no idea how to code. There are those coders who also run tournaments. Then there are those that contribute to just playing.

What little I remember about 1.0, was that great players took time to make the game more epic than it already was. Unfortunately, it ended up failing for various reasons. You've got to consider time/resources and also willingness to fight. I agree that most people want to fight for this game, but more are content to bitch about it. If you want to see real change, put your ego on hold, give some solid advice, and actively support the change you want to see. Whether that be saying to larry "good job on the tournament" or "your tournament sucks, try this..." it all can help.

AC run tournament with hoodies and memorabilia offered as the prize anyone? I'd be willing to contribute to that. Maybe a release cup. eh? eh?

[Elite]

I think big tournaments like the acwc or the aG-cup should be integrated to the ac-wiki. At least the tourney-tree and i also recommend screens and demos.

Yeah a release cup would be a nice competition for the small area of the best players and also a nice attraction for new players/clans.

If we have a chance to be added to the ESL again and if we could do some cups every month there, would for sure lead to better competition through new attracted players.

Tbh since Drakas is away, public games got really boring, the number of "noobs" has been increased and the talents has been decreased. Just remember his servers like Wotan Fragland or Hi-Skill when you had to be lucky to get a slot.

As well old 1.0 maps should be added again like wasteland, this was one of the best maps for 1vs1 tbh.

[Minty]

Wow, wonderful read, especially Mercykill.

I'm going to post a massive post with my deeper thoughts later (still can't believe AC was ever in ESL, holy crap).

Maybe with the next release we can get new things started, and more competition rolling.

[Minty]

before you start to discuss about it ... it is "Quake" vs "CS" , it is very important to understand. Something from Quake and something from CS. What is sniper ? Railgun or sniper from CS ? Sauer is more quake.

I hope it will never be clean CS or clean Quake, AC would be dead.

Edit:
Ok, Learning curve, definition of real skill, etc. are connected with the configuration the panel below:


|Quake speed req. | <----------------------------> |AC speed req.| <------> |CS speed req.|


|Quake teamplay req. | <----> |AC teamplay req.| <------------------------> |CS teamplay req.|

accuracy req.
etc...

noobs are slow and don't cooperate, if we want to set the game for noobs, the panel should be ...

Sorry, could you explain your chart a little bit? I think I get it, but I'm not entirely sure. What does "speed requirement" entail?

[CharlyMurphie]

CS is so full of chets as well as QL.

What? We're talking about competitive gaming, not pubbing. Of course there are cheaters, every fps game has them. But on competitive level that is not true, if you cheat you will be "blacklisted" and you have no business in competitive gaming anymore.

I wasn't just talking about cheaters; cool them jets man. That quote is taken out of context. I was defending AC and giving what I thought was some decent advice. Sorry to go of topic just a little. Minty I's sorry