AC 1.1 OR AC 1.0.4

[JMM]

I think the noobcannon is fine as it is. Actually, I think every gun is great right now... except I'm still a bit concerned about the 1.1 sniper. It's fine in pubs but does honestly feel a tad weak.

[Dragon]

I just don't get everyone complaining, just get used to it.

I'm offering my opinion and my view, and while it may be a negative opinion, it doesn't necessarily equate to complaining.

so if you REALLY love or loved this game,accept 1.1 cancel 1.0.4 and help devs by constructiv POV ;)

I think bringing up issues that I think should be fixed can be considered helpful criticism.

I see the devs posting every now and then, so I assume people involved with the developing of AC read this thread from time to time (hopefully). In which case, hopefully my comments will be taken into consideration, though obviously I can't really make any direct influence.

If I were remaking 1.1 I would change these things:
+Make the shotgun-type weapons slightly less powerful. I've been an SMGer my whole ac career and after switching to 1.1, I completely flopped with the SMG but decided to pull out the shotgun one of my first matches (which I hadn't touched in months and was totally out of practice with) and wound up with a 1.90 ratio at the end of the match. The gun I was a pro with did me no good; the gun I hadn't used in a long time pwned for me. I think that's a sign of unbalanced weapons.

+Make the time it takes to kill (fire rate) of the smg lower. Right now, the smg takes only a fraction of a second to kill someone. This (and the shotgun's power) are making the gameplay seem more chaotic and random. More and more of the score of the player and how well you do are based on luck, mainly who sees who first. Right now, the player who sees his enemy first always kills. Back in 1.0.4, the movement was more fluid and faster, and I could always check my back and look around to make sure no one is near me.
Now, most of my deaths come from randomly being shot by someone I didn't see; half the time I don't see who killed me. This choatic feel where you win the most if you're more lucky makes it waaay less fun to play.

^This whole thing also makes camping increase.

+Bring the recoil on the smg back up. This is part of what causes the problem of the smg killing way too fast.

+Bring the motion and speed of the player back to the way it was in 1.0.4. Right now, player speed is slower, which is a bad thing. Assault cube maps are close-quarters and hallways, and the style is pretty much melee with machine guns. Right now, the motion makes it difficult to defend yourself from all sides, so often you wind up getting shot from behind or by someone you didn't see, totally randomly. Assault cube, by nature, works best with fast movement.

I know you all would like to have a more strategy-based AC, but in order to shift from the melee-type action to that you'd need to make major changes to Assault Cube and, basically, make it not assault cube anymore. You'd have to make the maps larger, more complicated and with more open space. You'd have to slow player speed down much, much more and add a sprint option and stamina limits. You'd have to alter the very nature of the game. But I liked it how it was before; this in-between, weird style of 1.1 that tries to introduce elements of strategy but really makes it more luck-based isn't doing much for me.

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Also, I think it's dumb that the ratio isn't shown anymore. I look at ratios often to gauge how dangerous certain players on the other team are, to evaluate who is reliable on my team and who is not, and to weigh how well we're doing against the other team. I don't see any good reason for removing it; it was very helpful to me. Especially in DM, TDM, OSOK, and TOSOK, ratio is very important for me to know how well me and my team are doing and to identify the strong players in the room.

[#M|A#Wolf]

Instead of using ratio, get used to the score system. If you finish the game with 1000 or more then you did a very good job :)

[tipper|DES|]

“The gun I was a pro with did me no good; the gun I hadn't used in a long time pwned for me. I think that's a sign of unbalanced weapons.”

Well that’s interesting, I’ve found the smg about the same if you can aim and that’s what I used in 1.04 mainly.
There is no doubt the A&R is a more powerful option now and really it needed to be.
All this bollocks about the shotgunners is exactly that. Sure, it’s more powerful than it was but to play well with it takes skill.
It seems to me the spam has just changed from nades to shotgun. Most decent players worked around the nade problem so I reckon most decent players should be able to work around the shotgun spammers as well.
From what I’ve seen, the decent players struggled for a couple of days, cried about their ratio and then manned up to the task of getting sorted.
There has always been the unarmed around a corner you just didn’t see in every issue from 0.92 to now. I really can’t see much difference from one issue to the next in this respect.

I haven’t noticed any decrease in game speed. In fact, given the upgraded A&R the game can be a lot faster with the better players. The devs can probably say if the actual game speed has changed but if it has it isn’t enough to take issue with.

In 1.1 the better players won’t rely on just one weapon for every map and every opposition and that can only be a good thing imo.

The fact is a lot of players who performed well in 1.04 are doing as well if not better in 1.1 so it obviously isn’t a general game fault is it, or no one would be able to perform well (?)
Seems to me it’s down to the individual player.

The only complaint I can take seriously is the “over armoured for the size of map” that stef mentions. I think this is a legitimate point and no doubt it will get addressed as time goes by.

Strategy……make I larf…..not on the pubs, it still is and always has been every man/women for themselves in general. You need strategic, considerate players to have a strategic game and all the weapon/speed/armour alteration in the world couldn’t make ac a strategic game on the pubs.
It’s an fps not WOW ffs.

It really is this simple; if some players can maintain their performance in issue 1.1 then it can’t possibly be a game fault. Maybe some of those who can’t hack it in 1.1 are not in reality quite as good a player as they might think.

[DrooL]

i love ac dramaaaaaaaaa!!! >:D i have been watching over this topic for a while and i must say it is entertaining. the conflict, th drama, the funny posts, EVERYTHING! i want to keep this topic running, pop some pop corn sit back and watch what people say, so ill just ask a few questions ;)

what if, assault cube had some game modes where there was a 3rd person perseptive like in spectate mode?

and can anyone tell me, did anyone feel the same way i did when the devs said that v1.1 is coming soon?

this is what i thought to myself....

"omg!!! a better version then 1.0?!? it cant be possible.... but it is!!... hmm... how much longer till its ready.... oh, hey! its ready. let me download this right here... 40mbs later.... install... oh.. not to many seve... whoa!!! 241 servers?!?!? wtf! wait a minute.... none of the weapons work D:... ar is pretty good... i guess ill use that."

a few weeks later...

"yea, my name is one of the devs that made assault cube.... we kinda screwed up in the process of making it.. so.. well call it 1.1 ^^ dont worry, its not the ACTUAL version.... just a beta :)"

me... "WHAT THE £#©& DOES THAT MEAN?"

quotes are what my mind was thinking when i was actually reading what was going on :) for smaller minds to comprehend, i take your reality, and substitute it for my own.

excuse me for any spelling issues i made, i typed this all on my phone. (fingers broken)

[Dragon]

I hope you wouldn't classify the last couple pages as drama :/. We were trying to have a sensible discussion about the differences and pro and cons of changes ac, I'd rather not bring in the drama-posters again.

@Tipper: it's not that I'm struggling to perform well, I picked it up fine and have been scoring alright. I'm just having less fun for various reasons, including the lack of some of the more awesome custom maps, the speed, and the gun imbalance.

It feels to me like the speed you move in 1.1 has decreased. Either way, motion feels less fluid. In addition, all the guns kill much faster now. These two things cause the problem of players being pretty much defenseless if an attacker shoots them from an angle they didn't see. In 1.0.4, there was always time to turn around and blast whoever shot at you.

I'd really rather have nade spammers than shotgun spammers. With nades, it's far more difficult to aim, you have a 50/50 chance of killing, and to avoid them you can jump and you have time to run from the nAde. With a shotgun, especially in a close-quarters map, there isn't much you can do. Since the range is increased, backing away from the shotgunner, which used to work, doesn't work anymore. The most you can do is camp around the armor pickups and wait for full armor.

In my view, the guns are too powerful. They all kill too fast. It's making the game more chaotic and random. We need a less powerful shotgun, recoil for the smg again, and the armor to be tweaked more.

[DEKiMA]

People say that we should adapt or leave. I guess if that's the mentality, than I'm leaving because I've tried to adapt and it didn't work.

Bye

These problems make 1.1 unenjoyable to me:
Shotgun camping and the over-powerful shotgun. I can't stand playing with shotgun campers. The shotgun is much more luck than skill, with shotgunners shooting and hoping they'll kill and that their target wasn't wearing armor and such.

Shooting hoping they kill? Um, no they shoot with the intention to kill, just like any other weapon.

Ever played ac_shine with 20 good player? Holy cow that's a fast, fun, intense game.
I extremely dislike losing all the awesome custom maps we had before. Mapmaking and playing custom maps was part of the fun of the game. I used to spent much more time making maps than playing. I don't like the lack of those maps at all.

Then make a custom map.

I don't think you understood what I was saying - i don't have a problem with people who simply use shotgun as their primary weapon, it's the campers who hide in corners trying to pick off enemies every now and then who bug me.

Now and then = camping now?

Feel free to play and love the new assault cube. I'm just explaining why, to me, it isn't nearly as excellent of a game. And if the general sentiment is going to be love it or leave it, I'd rather leave.

I thought you were going to do that before?

The shotgun is overpowerful. The weapons are unbalanced. The slower speed and pace doesn't work with ac maps. A lot of the maps I like are gone and mapmaking is less fun now.

How is making maps less fun?

[MorganKell]

First off Stupefy I'd like to answer your comment about mid-range maps, but I'm too lazy to quote it. To dodge shottywhores all you have to do is get jiggy wit it! Dance around a little, throw off their aim, it doesn't always have to be a man up fight, first person to empty their clip wins kind of thing. You can go tactical on their ass. Hell dip around a corner and throw a monkey wrench in their face. Pop out and tax that ass. Shimmy Shimmy.

Now Dragon I must respectfully disagree. However your posts remind me of my ancient posting skills and because of that I now consider you a Mid-Level Shimmy. Welcome to the cusp of awesomeness. The recoil of the SMG in 1.0.4 was bad, very baaaaad. I grew up in .93 and for the longest time could not learn how to handle it. .93 was a no-recoil smg, and it was insanely uber. 1.0.4 really ruined my day, but I've found that in 1.1 I am able to ownslap once again. The only thing that really kills me is that it feels like it has less of a kick. Armor is most likely to blame for that, but still. It's a shimmy. It is still a very good gun to roll with. More bullets and faster firing makes up for the lack of power. As for the speed of the game I do agree it feels a little slower, but not so much that it really affects anything.

Weapon balance however is very very GOOD. In 1.0.4 the sniper was beast. Anyone with even halfway decent skills could zap you with nothing more than 1 sniper shot and a couple of pistol shots. The shotty and the AR were essentially unplayable, except for the leet few who excelled in those areas. 1.1 offers a more versatile armory. Instead of only the sniper and the SMG (still can't figure that out) being the only usable guns, you have 3 more possibilities. Carbine is lethal, but loads slower. AR is finally a true blue piece of firepower (Cmon it is an Assault Rifle - M16FTW!!). The shotgun gets the lethal splatter range it deserves. You fire a shotty and you expect it to whip out a BOOM BITCH. Bullets don't stop until they find some white meat to eat. They get less powerful as they fly, and the shotgun's range is still very midlevel compared to the 1.0.4 hacksniper. Obviously it's a sniper... but shimmy shimmy. A shotty can now go head to head against a sniper. It is not guaranteed it will win, but the shotgunner has a fighting chance. The weapon balance makes AC a more fun, and more playable game in my opinion. If I'm having a bad day on my favorite weapon, I can switch it up a bit. That's what is really great about 1.1 for me.

[Zarjio]

Agree with MorganKell.
If anything, weapon balance is better in 1.1.
Sure, the shotty is the easiest to use weapon, but what's new about that? The "noobtube" is like that in pretty much any FPS.

[Dragon]

However your posts remind me of my ancient posting skills and because of that I now consider you a Mid-Level Shimmy. Welcome to the cusp of awesomeness.

:P Not sure I understand what this means.

The recoil of the SMG in 1.0.4 was bad, very baaaaad.

But it's good with heavy recoil, because otherwise it kills too fast. Which creates the problems I've been talking about of players getting blindsided by someone they didn't see and not having a chance to do anything about it. I think players should be able to turn around and fight someone, otherwise it's all random luck who gets killed based on who spots who first.

I guess the weapons balance is hard to argue about, since it's more of an issue of opinion, but I still find it odd how I could instantly do far better with a shotgun that I hadn't used in such a long time than with the smg, my normal weapon.

Even if they weapons are all balanced in power, they still kill much too fast. Making players slower + faster killing weapons = a wierd, chaotic feel of gameplay that doesn't really emphasize skill as much.

[#M|A#Wolf]

Which creates the problems I've been talking about of players getting blindsided by someone they didn't see and not having a chance to do anything about it. I think players should be able to turn around and fight someone, otherwise it's all random luck who gets killed based on who spots who first.

I don't agree with you on this. I take it that you haven't played this game for more than 5-7 months? After some time of playing the game you develop a natural footwork reflex (hopefully), which works when someone is shooting you in the back and you take cover then surprise him, with you winning the battle. Of course, there are some times that he shoots you in the back so much that there is no way you can kill him even with the element of surprise, in that case you have to know how much health is too low to fight and when to run away for some health.

[Dragon]

I don't agree with you on this. I take it that you haven't played this game for more than 5-7 months?

Lol, no, I've been playing both 1.0 and 1.1 side by side every day for weeks.

After some time of playing the game you develop a natural footwork reflex (hopefully), which works when someone is shooting you in the back and you take cover then surprise him, with you winning the battle. Of course, there are some times that he shoots you in the back so much that there is no way you can kill him even with the element of surprise, in that case you have to know how much health is too low to fight and when to run away for some health.

I have the reflexes and the skill for that, but 1.1 makes it much more difficult to do because the guns kill much faster and there are guns like the newly-powered shotgun that can kill with 1 or 2 shots.

[#M|A#Wolf]

Adapt :)

[ElCrema]

So the guns are faster but ppl insist that the game is way to slow. I don't get it: is it faster or slower? Make up your minds!
I find it much faster now caus I'm using the AR lots and thus sprinting like a mad man trough out the maps and the tiny recoil in the smg makes it fell lighting speed too, so I relle don't get this slow game talk. Thou in a clan match sometimes it gives the impression of a slower paced gameplay mostly caus of the much stronger armor, that result in lot more hits per kill and the less flying nades passing over my head. Other than that, it is the same ol' fast paced AC I love.

[titiPT]

I agree the TheCream on this one, i think AC has become much more FASTpaced.

[DEKiMA]

I agree the TheCream on this one, i think AC has become much more FASTpaced.

Like I said, there are so many times where I am shaking and my whole body is sweating because a match was just epically intense! Lots of shine CTF matches for example.

[Dragon]

The guns kill faster, but the players move slower. Which doesn't work well.
I can adapt, but it's still less fun if you're adapting to a style of gameplay that isn't as good as it was before.

Also, AC is a work and progress and always has been. In my opinion, people shouldn't be defending 1.1 as if it were going to be the new assault cube permanently and therefore we should get used to it. It's going to keep changing so I don't see why it isnt constructive to have a discussion about things to improve in the next version.

[Brahma]

Dragon... stop to post non-senses.
The player movement is the same in relation to the previous version.
Fix your fov... try:

/fov 120

[Dragon]

Dragon... stop to post non-senses.

Well thanks.
And my fov was already at 120.

[CharlyMurphie]

I never got the chance to play 1.0.4, but I think this game is pretty cool for being free and all. It keeps me busy when I go out of state and I can keep it on my flash drive. Thanks for the work that was involved in going into it, I'm sure it was a group effort.

[Stranz]

1.1 changes were quite fine and balanced. and the damage aswell, and with decreased spread you might feel "faster" since you have not much to do than track your aim on your oponent plus add some own gameplay to make it go in the best way that fit on you. for instance that might be fine since you will get the timing and more or less calculate when you would be able to take down an opponent cause the experience you only get playing over and over, till a point you shouldnt get any surprise or mindtrick cause you know what is coming.

but, as a weapon balance came, also we had the new armor feature and then unpdredictible changes arrived, well know maps that came with a big amount of armor/helmets.

so here comes the paradox, did the game become faster or slower?

that's a 50/50 and depends much likely of two matters and those are the ones i stated before, now i am not trying to close this issue in 2 straight things, but surely i can say these values commonly clash and you notice when it happends.

spread/damage/firerate(guns)vs armor.

have talked about the damage, ms and shoots to take down an opponent w & w/o armor already so wont bring the matter again, but the difference of being unequiped and equiped of armor change slightly the weapon balance in terms of shoots per kill.

so in some moments you wont feel changes on guns and sometimes you will end with the mag and your opponent alive yet.

anyhow there's many things that can affect the gameplay. but these should explain the endless mind maze to explain yourself why you dont know how to dominate your opponent without getting something unexpected.

[Dragon]

Idk if this discussion is useful anymore so I guess I'll stop posting. I miss a lot of the maps, I think the guns changes need tweaking. I think that the guns should kill slower or at least players should be able to move faster to counteract that.

[Brahma]

It is difficult to change such basal things (player speed and attack effective damage time) without change the game too much. Our last try was the armor (which looked like just a simple change at first time), but it produced a huge effect... you must consider that.

[Dragon]

It is difficult to change such basal things (player speed and attack effective damage time) without change the game too much. Our last try was the armor (which looked like just a simple change at first time), but it produced a huge effect... you must consider that.

Sure.

But I really don't like the way the whole game has pretty much turned into a fight over pickups. Now that the guns are so powerful there's no way you can hope to face another player who's any good without having full health, and I wouldn't ever try to leave my team's half of the map without armor now because it's so essential to survival. Everything is coming down to gaining an advantage over your opponent by getting armor, making sure you stay at full health. You can't fight on, say, 34 health like you used to be able to in 1.0.4.
Y'all say that the more I play the game, the more I'll like it, but I'm liking it less and less every time I play.

[*SMG*_3m]

well this dose tend to promote the idea that had a definite spin of Clausewitz, attack unless your too week, the more your team controls the more land you control, the less likely you will be killed in your spawn, and the more likely you will be able to pick up, the pick ups. you also have a much better chance to fall back then the enemy team dose, and thus a better chance of survival.

the more aggression a team as a whole has the better their chance as winning is. armor is a spoil of war in many of the maps where there is one central Kevlar vest, control the center take a Kevlar, be one step closer to a crushing and overwhelming victory.

[Dragon]

well this dose tend to promote the idea that had a definite spin of Clausewitz, attack unless your too week, the more your team controls the more land you control, the less likely you will be killed in your spawn, and the more likely you will be able to pick up, the pick ups. you also have a much better chance to fall back then the enemy team dose, and thus a better chance of survival.

the more aggression a team as a whole has the better their chance as winning is. armor is a spoil of war in many of the maps where there is one central Kevlar vest, control the center take a Kevlar, be one step closer to a crushing and overwhelming victory.

Except AC doesn't work like that. Teams can't "control" pieces of territory in the map. It simply doesn't work because of the nature of the game. We've already had a discussion about strategy and teamwork and AC...
(and spawnkilling sucks regardless of the team element)

[Gibstick]

Map control is pickup control. There is nothing else to control. In a 34hp vs 100hp fight, it would be senseless if they both had equal chances. Sure, you can get the element of surprise or a good camp spot, but in a head-on encounter that's just stupid. Sneaking up is still useful in AC. A good team can dominate the entire map and not have to worry about a tank in 100/100 coming at them. Run around, time the pickups.

[Brahma]

Dragon... this game is Quake descendant... pick ups have a central role here.
And I never played Quake... and I enjoyed a lot CS. But this game is not CS... the tactics here are difficult to execute because you die too fast (and respawn even faster).
You need to face this game from other angle.

[*SMG*_3m]

you can 100% control the map, for instance in shine i like to hand out in the "tri pickup area" where there is nades/hp/armor, me and 1 other can hold this rather well if he have armor, on the other side someone, or a small group of someones can control the flank, and the center can be full of snipers, this gives you 3/4 nades 2/2 armors and most of the HP

Map control- not needed to be maintained 100% of the time, just long enough to keep your enemy from having "tanks" as gibstick said 100/100 full amo/full nades, keep the best from this you can control the enemy team, i have done it in clan matches before works great.

[CharlyMurphie]

you can 100% control the map, for instance in shine i like to hand out in the "tri pickup area" where there is nades/hp/armor, me and 1 other can hold this rather well if he have armor, on the other side someone, or a small group of someones can control the flank, and the center can be full of snipers, this gives you 3/4 nades 2/2 armors and most of the HP

Map control- not needed to be maintained 100% of the time, just long enough to keep your enemy from having "tanks" as gibstick said 100/100 full amo/full nades, keep the best from this you can control the enemy team, i have done it in clan matches before works great.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Dragon... this game is Quake descendant... pick ups have a central role here.
And I never played Quake... and I enjoyed a lot CS. But this game is not CS... the tactics here are difficult to execute because you die too fast (and respawn even faster).
You need to face this game from other angle.

No pickups= NFL (NoFunLeauge)