ACWC Preparation Discussion

[M__Stayla]

What's the deadline of this poll?

[Vanguard]

no spectators exept referees on the servers. The sub can stay in TS

[kaz]

the subs as spectators are to lose less time replacing other player that disconnected .
team a vs team b
(with sub as spect)
player33 from team a disconnected, the sub automatically join and not wasted 10 sec .
(without sub as spect )
player33 from team a disconnected, then you stop the game, set mastermode 0, wait for the sub join, set mastermode 2 and now you can continue . mopre than 30 sec with the game stopped.


thats what we are trying to avoid ... because if your team is winning then no problem you wouldnt mind wasting time, but if your team is losing you want it to be as quick as possible because you wont get an extra time to play .

[ExodusS]

the subs as spectators are to lose less time replacing other player that disconnected .
team a vs team b
(with sub as spect)
player33 from team a disconnected, the sub automatically join and not wasted 10 sec .
(without sub as spect )
player33 from team a disconnected, then you stop the game, set mastermode 0, wait for the sub join, set mastermode 2 and now you can continue . mopre than 30 sec with the game stopped.

No, no and no.

Mastermode is 2 (match) it means that if you are in-game and if you disconnect, you can reconnect without changing the mastermode.
So, just let subs on at start to get register.
If someone leave, sub (who was ready to connect at any time) comes on the server without changing the mastermode.

Less that 5 seconds, just the time to join.

[Z-karIuS]

I agree with exodus, the benched players are like human wallhacks and make the game less strategic. We have had 3 acwc before and this never needed a discussion, subs can't spectate. The benching feature is good but doesn't work the way it should, hope in the next update it does.

[Roflcopter]

I agree with exodus, the benched players are like human wallhacks and make the game less strategic. We have had 3 acwc before and this never needed a discussion, subs can't spectate.

You make it sound like it's an obvious choice and any right-thinking person would agree with you but it's in fact the balance of two things: delaying the game and possibly allowing ghosting.

Maybe you should accept that if a player wants to cheat they can! There are ways of using radarhacks undetectably too.

The only really solid solution I see is to require everyone to use a special client.

[RAMPAGE]

The only really solid solution I see is to require everyone to use a special client.

F1
That way we would have less cheaters / doubts about some players cheating \o/!

[#M|A#Wolf]

If there would also be a version for not only Windows then I have nothing against having a special client. Obviously through server logs you would be able to check that everyone has that special client, with the protocol or something?

[Vermi]

The only really solid solution I see is to require everyone to use a special client.

F1 to vanilla clients, also would it be possible to mod the servers so that /benchme works properly?

[#M|A#Wolf]

The only really solid solution I see is to require everyone to use a special client.

F1 to vanilla clients, also would it be possible to mod the servers so that /benchme works properly?

Vanilla clients? Uh... I think you misunderstood. What Larry was trying to get across was to give everyone a special, (modified) client, so that he can change them to his liking to make sure there is less possible cheating. Not exactly vanilla, quite the opposite.

[Vermi]

The only really solid solution I see is to require everyone to use a special client.

F1 to vanilla clients, also would it be possible to mod the servers so that /benchme works properly?

Vanilla clients? Uh... I think you misunderstood. What Larry was trying to get across was to give everyone a special, (modified) client, so that he can change them to his liking to make sure there is less possible cheating. Not exactly vanilla, quite the opposite.

how? what would a modified client do to prevent cheating that a vanilla client wouldn't?

[RAMPAGE]

how? what would a modified client do to prevent cheating?

Someone is trying to be spare time philosopher and creates absurd to make us think about terminology more. :P
Lets stick to "special" client not "modified" because there are various modified clients that not only don't help us prevent cheating, but are also instrumental in cheating.

ontopic: Special client would assure that we all have same clients, for example. We could also seal the code so no one would be able to put his dirty little cheating fingers in it and so on... :)

[jamz]

how? what would a modified client do to prevent cheating that a vanilla client wouldn't?

The source for a vanilla client is readily available, allowing anyone to modify the client and still have it appear as vanilla. If a modified special client is used, with binaries released shorlty before a match, that client can be coded to announce itself in a unique way, guaranteeing that all are using the same file.
edit: You're right, RAMPAGE

[Vermi]

how? what would a modified client do to prevent cheating that a vanilla client wouldn't?

The source for a vanilla client is readily available, allowing anyone to modify the client and still have it appear as vanilla. If a modified special client is used, with binaries released shorlty before a match, that client can be coded to announce itself in a unique way, guaranteeing that all are using the same file.
edit: You're right, RAMPAGE

sounds good, i think brazil are an f2 though

[Ronald_Reagan]

how? what would a modified client do to prevent cheating that a vanilla client wouldn't?

The source for a vanilla client is readily available, allowing anyone to modify the client and still have it appear as vanilla. If a modified special client is used, with binaries released shorlty before a match, that client can be coded to announce itself in a unique way, guaranteeing that all are using the same file.
edit: You're right, RAMPAGE

sounds good, i think brazil are an f2 though

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-4920.html

* Ronald_Reagan F2s

[Vermi]

how? what would a modified client do to prevent cheating that a vanilla client wouldn't?

The source for a vanilla client is readily available, allowing anyone to modify the client and still have it appear as vanilla. If a modified special client is used, with binaries released shorlty before a match, that client can be coded to announce itself in a unique way, guaranteeing that all are using the same file.
edit: You're right, RAMPAGE

sounds good, i think brazil are an f2 though

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-4920.html

* Ronald_Reagan F2s

I don't think there are any suspect players representing USA this year, Brazil on the other hand..... ex by3 players, plenas is undoubtedly still around, that said there are many clean good players from Brazil too, that's why I'm behind this special client idea.

[MorganKell]

Shit assuming I get Internet within the next century how does one qualify to play?

[#M|A#Wolf]

You make a team and register when the time comes :)

[Flames]

Glitches may not be used although dropping the flag into inaccessible locations is considered legal.

Please, don't make it legal...

[Roflcopter]

I worry with introducing a required client many players would be turned off, struggle to install it or turn up to matches without it. I'm not sure a big event like ACWC is the time to trial it although it is very compelling to have near proof that all partaking were legit.

To those wondering, we'd provide clients for all platforms. This way I'd only have to share the code with three people at most.

Shit assuming I get Internet within the next century how does one qualify to play?

There will be a signup with at least two weeks deadline once ACWC has been discussed thoroughly.

Glitches may not be used although dropping the flag into inaccessible locations is considered legal.

Please, don't make it legal...

The same rule was in the aG Cup and no one ever did it. The reason it's allowed currently is because I don't want to disallow certain gameplay mechanics arbitarily unless they're a bug which dropping the flag into inaccessible regions doesn't seem to be.

[lucky]

I call bullshit on that last note larry. Dropping the flag into those glitches is just cheating as i see it. All it does is waste time that the other team could desperately need to score a flag. For example:

Team A and Team B are tied on flags in depot but team A is ahead by 12 frags. There is 1 minute left on the clock. Both teams have each others flag and team A goes and drops B's flag into the glitch spot outside of rvsf. Now team A has to wait for the flag to reset and in doing so, the time runs out and they lose.

Abusing these glitches is just cheating to win.

[Elite]

Yop, i agree with lucky. As well on power, you can reach some position only with AR through rifle jumping. And If you arent used to AR you need to wait for the auto return of the flag.

Btw what you do think about promoting the AssaultCube WorldCup more, for e. g. through ESL. Due to the 1vs1 dm ladder on the ESL page some really nice players tried AssaultCube, e.g. ot4ku, P4mp aka Art, ... . The website of Lucas was fine, maybe we can seperate save there the score and statistics and after we transfer it to the AC wiki. Well, i would be glad if we can get the old results of the acwc 2009 and 2010 and put it too into the ac wiki.

Nice advertising in my opinion.

[Roflcopter]

I call bullshit on that last note larry. Dropping the flag into those glitches is just cheating as i see it. All it does is waste time that the other team could desperately need to score a flag. For example:

Team A and Team B are tied on flags in depot but team A is ahead by 12 frags. There is 1 minute left on the clock. Both teams have each others flag and team A goes and drops B's flag into the glitch spot outside of rvsf. Now team A has to wait for the flag to reset and in doing so, the time runs out and they lose.

Abusing these glitches is just cheating to win.

Everything you said seems to assume it's a glitch, but I don't think it can be since there is no unintended behaviour occurring. The flags should fit in these places, the players shouldn't be able to reach these places since they're larger. No bugs are happening.

I'm well aware it can stall a game, but I didn't want to impose arbitary restrictions on gameplay. If there's a consensus, as with most things, rules will change.

[Edward]

As well on power, you can reach some position only with AR through rifle jumping. And If you arent used to AR you need to wait for the auto return of the flag.

Negative. Even with sniper I can reach those positions you are talking about (on power). You will just need more time.
But map bugs should not be used. It give you an unfair advantage.

[Ronald_Reagan]

Everything you said seems to assume it's a glitch, but I don't think it can be since there is no unintended behaviour occurring. The flags should fit in these places, the players shouldn't be able to reach these places since they're larger. No bugs are happening.

I'm well aware it can stall a game, but I didn't want to impose arbitary restrictions on gameplay. If there's a consensus, as with most things, rules will change.

Yes, glitch is a bad word, but it is still unfair. One team will always have an easier way to access the spot, and it is semi proven that you can almost never lose when using a spot on sunset. I bet I could win a CM (granted on htf) against anyone by using those spots. That is saying a lot. Yes on CTF it will have less impact, but it is still unfair and shouldn't be allowed.

[Roflcopter]

Yes, glitch is a bad word, but it is still unfair. One team will always have an easier way to access the spot, and it is semi proven that you can almost never lose when using a spot on sunset. I bet I could win a CM (granted on htf) against anyone by using those spots. That is saying a lot. Yes on CTF it will have less impact, but it is still unfair and shouldn't be allowed.

The problem I have with making changes due to things being unfair is that there are lots of them. Scripts, under powered weapons and so forth. The game is as the game is; why should it be for me to decide what's allowed?

From a pragmatic point of view it seems a sensible rule but I don't want to wonder the slippery slope of changing gameplay any more. I'll add this rule but in general gamplay changes won't be made.

[Edward]

The game is unfair? Lets make it less unfair then... Where is the problem? Map bugs are not a fatality. If I am not allowed to use them I wont use them. If we cant do anything about the weapon balance atm, we can at least remove some bugs.

[Reedie-oH]

1) Subs shouldn't be able to use the "free view" but as we said, there isnt better solution. And as Larry said, if someone wants to cheat, he can.
2) Maps like arid, aqueous shouldn't be forbidden if it played on both side

The teams play one round of the map on each side and then total the number of flags they each have.

Pick something like aqueous or douze is bad, but it should be allowed.
3) Some servers lag. Can it be fixed ?
4) A dedicated website would be better than a clan's forum.

Thanks larry, I hope you'll do great job, as you did on aG cup

[M__Stayla]

I agree, an extra forum would be better. The other ACWC's had a certain forum as well

[Roflcopter]

1) Subs shouldn't be able to use the "free view" but as we said, there isnt better solution. And as Larry said, if someone wants to cheat, he can.
2) Maps like arid, aqueous shouldn't be forbidden if it played on both side

The teams play one round of the map on each side and then total the number of flags they each have.

Pick something like aqueous or douze is bad, but it should be allowed.
3) Some servers lag. Can it be fixed ?
4) A dedicated website would be better than a clan's forum.

Thanks larry, I hope you'll do great job, as you did on aG cup

Thanks for some good points.

On point number 2) I've heard both sides. The people claiming we shouldn't be able to play arid, aqueous and douze recognize that it's balanced since both sides are played but simply view the maps as not fun to play.

Point 3) depends very much on what servers are available to us. If anyone has some resources to provide a high-quality match server in the US or other regions which could use some more servers this would help a lot. As for the rules, they give a lot of discretion to referees to decide the fairest server out of those available (but only if the teams can't agree themselves).

Point 4) would be great if anyone is able to provide such a thing. I will talk to k4z about it.