Map restrictions

[Bloodsport]

I'm probably going to attract the usual sorts of criticism for this, but anyway...

It would be really nice of the devs if they would limit the map quality checks to server-side only. This would allow people to set up servers without the restrictions as long as they do not register with the master server. Since the unrestricted servers would not be visible on the master server, it wouldn't pollute the game, but would still allow some more interesting map layouts to be played in private servers.

Yes, I know you can modify the client, but nobody (other than a cheater) is going to bother to do that just to play a few small games.

It would give all those ac_douze CTF players somewhere else to go.

[SiL3nT]

ac_douze is like nuketown in CoD.

Take it away and 50% less play the game.

Other than that, very good idea!

[Mael]

Everything I've been saying since AC was overrun with Ezjemville.

+1, confirm, thumbs up, I approve this message.

[Luc@s]

I'm probably going to attract the usual sorts of criticism for this, but anyway...

i should consider preparing some ready-to-post answers to this kind of thread (the n'th about map restrictions) :P

It would be really nice of the devs if they would limit the map quality checks to server-side only. This would allow people to set up servers without the restrictions as long as they do not register with the master server.

we would have to check all those servers manually..

Since the unrestricted servers would not be visible on the master server, it wouldn't pollute the game, but would still allow some more interesting map layouts to be played in private servers.

Yes, I know you can modify the client, but nobody (other than a cheater) is going to bother to do that just to play a few small games.
It would give all those ac_douze CTF players somewhere else to go.

i think most of those who play these games are newcomers and will never know about "alternative servers". I can be wrong.

Tbh, anyway, AC isn't made for this kind of maps and Quality restrictions != creativity limitations. The quality check fails when the map can NOT be handled correctly by the engine. When you get errors, just fix what's to be fixed.

[V-Man]

The solution is acceptable, but should be implemented by someone other than the devs, to keep from looking like they approve of the crazy maps that would be played.

[SleepKiller]

Picture it this way. Cube engine is your car. Maps are the fuel, putting fuel that your car can not handle properly will result in a brake down. That is why these restrictions are inplace, not only to ensure crap maps stay out, but also that the wrong fuel is kept out; and that the engine runs at peak performance.

[Bloodsport]

SleepKiller, your analogy makes absolutely no sense.

There really is no reason that this should affect the main game in any way, I just would be nice if a few players who enjoy playing on more open maps would be able to set up a small private server where they can enjoy that.

The server side restrictions are quite sufficient to prevent the masterserver being flooded with filth.

[SleepKiller]

SleepKiller, your analogy makes absolutely no sense.

Did you miss what Luc@s said? Cube engine can not handle these maps properly and well as the devs not wanting them to be played on their game.

[Iguana]

Everything I've been saying since AC was overrun with Ezjemville.

+1, confirm, thumbs up, I approve this message.

We do not need ur criticism.. or the personal abuse

=====================================

I'm probably going to attract the usual sorts of criticism for this, but anyway...

i should consider preparing some ready-to-post answers to this kind of thread (the n'th about map restrictions) :P

Again we do not need ur criticism..
and stop the abuse.

It would be really nice of the devs if they would limit the map quality checks to server-side only. This would allow people to set up servers without the restrictions as long as they do not register with the master server.

we would have to check all those servers manually..

why would this bother u?
We wouldn't be forcing you to check them..
this would be for our close friends and such.
it should not concern the people that aren't invited

Since the unrestricted servers would not be visible on the master server, it wouldn't pollute the game, but would still allow some more interesting map layouts to be played in private servers.

Again y do u care? if u don't like these types of modded servers or bigger maps then you shouldn't play on them.. ._.

Also u aren't paying attention:

limit the map quality checks to server-side only. This would allow people to set up servers without the restrictions as long as they do not register with the master server.

think of it this way. you devs can make the server client they way u want to, only thing were asking is to move the all parts of the map checking restrictions to the server side.
and maybe still keep the error message checks in the client, but this should not effect modded servers when a client wants to connect and play on them.
basically it should still display errors like the map is too big or items to close etc.. but the user should have the right to chose to want to fix them or not. and the client should accept that the server is playing bigger maps, but still list the errors of the map if the user has that option enable in the console.

Yes, I know you can modify the client, but nobody (other than a cheater) is going to bother to do that just to play a few small games.
It would give all those ac_douze CTF players somewhere else to go.

i think most of those who play these games are newcomers and will never know about "alternative servers". I can be wrong.

yes u can be wrong

Tbh, anyway, AC isn't made for this kind of maps and Quality restrictions != creativity limitations. The quality check fails when the map can NOT be handled correctly by the engine. When you get errors, just fix what's to be fixed.

are u blind?
"modded server will not report to the ms", "it will not effect regular game play to users on the ms, because it wont be on the ms"
this is perfectly legal and not ur business if there are servers that are set up like this or not, and who goes on them or not.
your guys's concern is the activity on the ms nothing else.

we just want the client checks to be moved to the server

this make no sense..

quality check fails when the map can NOT be handled correctly by the engine.

explain the previous version of ac before 1.1?

=================================

The solution is acceptable, but should be implemented by someone other than the devs, to keep from looking like they approve of the crazy maps that would be played.

and how would this effect the devs image?
1. not every one would know about these modded servers
2. no one else can implement this idea other than the devs
i think that because this idea hasn't been implemented (all aspects of map restrictions be server side only) is making the devs image look bad already.

If this were to happen anytime soon the community would complain less.

=====================================

There really is no reason that this should affect the main game in any way, I just would be nice if a few players who enjoy playing on more open veriety of maps would be able to set up a small private server where they can enjoy that.

The server side restrictions are quite sufficient to prevent the masterserver being flooded with filth.

he said it pretty nicely.

[[SODA]___ME___]

I understand that not everyone has the best hardware but some of us that do would like to be able to use it. A possible solution it the option for mapcheck on clients and servers. If a client has good hardware and wants to play larger maps, or ones with pickups too close then he has a choice. If the client chooses not to play maps that dont pass mapcheck then dont show those servers to that client. If a server wants to be able to only serve maps that pass mapcheck or maps that are under a certain size limit then they can have that choice. I know its more than a few boolean variables, but its not that much more compared to the whole game. Set the defaults to enable mapcheck on both. I wish I had a way to restrict maps that are 20 cubes wide and 4000 cubes long on my server, but i dont now. Its all fun and no rules will be perfect, but having a choice would allow each to have what they want.

[tempest]

We do not need ur criticism..

. . .

And you really expect us to listen to your criticism, or what?

[Iguana]

Then how should we get along, when all i see is attacks from the dev team and their friends?

[tempest]

I don't know, but you definitely won't get along too well if you start your criticism with telling others that you won't listen to theirs.

[Bloodsport]

The point Iggy is making is that most of the responses so far have been along the lines of "the devs don't like big maps therefore we don't want to discuss it". Criticism is fine as long as it addresses the points being discussed. To say that playing big maps somehow breaks the cube engine is clearly incorrect. What we are looking for is some kind of statement from a developer saying that either they are willing to consider making it a bit easier for people to run unrestricted servers outside of the AC masterserver, or otherwise, that they do not want to allow it.

I would prefer it if this thread did not descend into a follow-my-leader arse kissing session.

[V-Man]

all i see is attacks from the dev team and their friends?

I think I see the problem right there. Put your fists down and understand that these are not attacks, but serious thoughts.

Actually, I just realized I understood the proposition incorrectly.
I agree that map restrictions should be server-side only.
I thought you meant that the devs should make some servers without map restrictions. Hoo-boy!

[Luc@s]

stop the abuse.

What abuse?

why would this bother u?
We wouldn't be forcing you to check them..

Who will check that the servers registering to the MS haven't disabled map quality checks?

Again y do u care? if u don't like these types of modded servers or bigger maps then you shouldn't play on them.. ._.

I just don't see why those maps would always have a more interesting layout.

Also u aren't paying attention:

kthx i can read

yes u can be wrong

ok

are u blind?

did i say something wrong?

"modded server will not report to the ms", "it will not effect regular game play to users on the ms, because it wont be on the ms"
this is perfectly legal and not ur business if there are servers that are set up like this or not, and who goes on them or not.
your guys's concern is the activity on the ms nothing else.

we don't really need you to tell us what's "our concern"

quality check fails when the map can NOT be handled correctly by the engine.

explain the previous version of ac before 1.1?

ah yes, the version full of servers running crap maps which couldn't be handled properly by the engine right

[Iguana]

This is what we were aiming for and what the idea of this whole thread should have been..

Actually, I just realized I understood the proposition incorrectly.
I agree that map restrictions should be server-side only.
I thought you meant that the devs should make some servers without map restrictions. Hoo-boy!

Even though bloodsport made it clear the first time.

And no the devs should not make servers without map restrictions.

We would appreciate it if the devs could either remove the portions of the code about map restriction (quality checks) from the client, or add it into the server client, or alter it a bit so that the client will read the map qualities from the remote server folders and not the local folder of the user.

This would give people with coding capabilities to elaborate more on server type mods (such as no map restrictions) as long as the modded server does not touch the ms, or else it should result in a server/ip ban.

I hope I've made it clear this time.

[Habluka]

I like this idea. Ezjemville is #1 king map.

[SleepKiller]

Here you go https://sourceforge.net/projects/actiong...n%201.0.4/ Just use the old version if you do not want to have to put up with the extremely reasonable quaility requirements.

[Bloodsport]

Here you go https://sourceforge.net/projects/actiong...n%201.0.4/ Just use the old version if you do not want to have to put up with the extremely reasonable quaility requirements.

Thank you for your helpful and informative responses. Are you trying to gain favour by being insulting, or are you just incapable of understanding what this thread is about?

[flowtron]

Careful now. Getting overexcited about a difference of opinion is no way to a solution.

The map-restrictions were implemented to help those mappers that do not understand the limitations of the cubeengine and/or basics of creating a playable map. For a definition of "playable" that is the envisioned way to play the game of the founders of this project.
Some restricitions have been more troublesome than others, revisiting them is surely in order at some point; but they have their purpose and just clamouring about how they stop you from playing havoc with the intention of the game is basically the reason they're there. Before that we were relying on common sense; our hopes there were sadly negated, then Brahma put in some brakes to stop the worst madness. As I said, the actual restrictions may need revisiting, especially if a good map runs into them .. but so far, nothing. It's only those that want to do what the engine can't with the game that are complaining.
As usual I refer those to Sauerbraten (Cube 2), where the world is really 3D and you don't have to live with low-tech-speedup-aspects like the cubeengine (Cube 1) relies upon and the map restrictions enforce on those unwilling to see.

[Iguana]

I've had a while to think this whole thread over, and recently I've come up with an idea.

ignoring the confusion i've made with how the map quality stuff works in the client side of ac, and looking at this ac gema forums (delete link if necessary..), I have a better understanding of how this all works.

also answering this

Who will check that the servers registering to the MS haven't disabled map quality checks?

Maybe implementing 2 types of map checks in the client, offline and online restrictions.

For online map restrictions:
Restricting map quality checks to only servers that are registered on the ms. So if its a server off the ms, then the map checks wont apply, it would just require a modded server to eliminate the restricting code.
Also with this in mind, even if any modded server that has no map restrictions registers on the ms, the client when connected to this modded server cant play maps due to the online ms map restriction rule built into the client.

For offline map restrictions:
no changes, just so people can still make maps and see error messages in the console (if they have that enabled) so that they can make maps for the general ac community and servers..

other than this, i have no more ideas left to share.

[V-Man]

I'm V-Man, and I approve of this compromise.

[Ronald_Reagan]

Slightly offtopic, but referring to the post linked to above, shouldn't you just do:

[SELECT ALL] Code:

return MAP_IS_GOOD;

which is less stupid?

[Mr.Floppy]

Picture it this way. Cube engine is your car. Maps are the fuel, putting fuel that your car can not handle properly will result in a brake down. That is why these restrictions are inplace, not only to ensure crap maps stay out, but also that the wrong fuel is kept out; and that the engine runs at peak performance.

Well, sorry for not reading through all this, but actually SleepKiller said it all already. He does make sense and it's a quite good analogy to the issue.

But... what do I know...

[#M|A#Wolf]

I agree with map restrictions and all, though what's all this about "map requirements were placed because the engine couldn't handle it" talk? I mean, hundreds of players played in Ezjemville, old village, and thousands of other custom "noob" maps and I never heard of anyone having problems with the maps and their own hardware. It always seemed to be since the beginning that the reason that this was done was because devs and a group of people wanted to only have a specified type of maps because the others looks ugly/unprofessional/clean/etc.

[Mr.Floppy]

Wolf, just to name three examples:

a) Scoping along far distances on maps like Ezjemville caused rendering issues. Walls on the far end simply disappeared. This actually got recognized by a lot of people, which instantly started yelling for cheaters.

b) The second one is even more prominent. The skymap glitch, which appearse on far distances, by low fog values.

c) Open areas and huge amounts of high poly mapmodels does drag the FPS of older/cheaper computers. There are plenty of "bla bla woods" and whatnot maps I can't see nothing but my FPS getting stuck somewhere below 10.

In fact, a lot of newbies who are fooling around on this insane open maps don't even realize their FPS is dropping down to 10% of average performance.

Besides that, no developer wants to have ugly and/or unproffesional maps and of course every developer wants to have maps fitting the game. That's blatantly obvious and there's really nothing bad about it.

There are games, also free ones, which have way stronger regulations on custom mapping, btw.

[SleepKiller]

Stop telling them and show them http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?cbcnhaq6ppnnbn7 a collection of maps from before the map restictions. You'll find HeadShotCity, Twintowers, Skyscrapers 3.5, bla bla bla All the crap maps. Have a look people and watch your FPS drop. Having good hardware can only take you so far having good software that can make proper use of that hardware is just as important. This is a thing Cube engine can not thus even if you have a decked out gameing rig your FPS is still gonna drop like its hunting season.

[V-Man]

AWESOMETASTIC!!!1

[Haku]

b) The second one is even more prominent. The skymap glitch, which appearse on far distances, by low fog values.

That's why we usually turn off fog. I see your point, but ye... read further :)

c) Open areas and huge amounts of high poly mapmodels does drag the FPS of older/cheaper computers. There are plenty of "bla bla woods" and whatnot maps I can't see nothing but my FPS getting stuck somewhere below 10.

Well, if there's such a map loaded and if it isnt per coincidence great fun (ye, you can have fun with lag. Sometimes even without actually killing someone), then i would just leave the server and search for another one.

In fact, a lot of newbies who are fooling around on this insane open maps don't even realize their FPS is dropping down to 10% of average performance.

C'mon, don't tell us you need to "protect" audiences. I think everyone is able to decide whether it's playable or not on his own. If not, read above.

Besides that, no developer wants to have ugly and/or unproffesional maps and of course every developer wants to have maps fitting the game. That's blatantly obvious and there's really nothing bad about it.

It's your full right, though the wider audience might take that as - we call it egoistic. It's ok, but then there's no point to be upset about a flood of criticism.

There are games, also free ones, which have way stronger regulations on custom mapping, btw.

That was the advantage of AC. Kind of. Please continue... *

a) Scoping along far distances on maps like Ezjemville caused rendering issues. Walls on the far end simply disappeared. This actually got recognized by a lot of people, which instantly started yelling for cheaters.

Well, don't scope. Seriously, players didn't disappear which is much more important anyways. I don't want to have a look at the nice textures of the wall on the background. At least not in those maps that you might refer to as "crap".

(*) We all have to admit that AC has not the best graphics, 3D environments etc... But that's what players/mappers liked about it. You could do rainbow maps, Mario Kart, whatever. It was up to the mappers. They had a huge freedom. And they would load their maps mostly on the servers of their clans (which you might refer to as servers without proper map rotation). If you are a player and dont like it, you can just go to another server. In about 5 days of playing AC, you found out that there are certain servers that are likely to play fun maps, and certain ones for serious playing on standard maps (TyD, MyS,...). And the fascinating thing about this is: You could have both by choosing, using your own mind.
So, why would you try to protect players that are most likely too stupid/undecided what they want. There were plenty of servers just running standard maps.

All the time, you just write down your point of view and why it must be this way. But there is not just your opinion. There are plenty of those who think elseway or just don't care.

So many have been moving to higher quality games, not just to higher quality maps. Maybe that even fits you because you officially want more quality. Hmpf.

As to come back to the topic, i think this might be a good start.

This statement shows my point of view to this - probably a bit offtopic topic now. Note that some points are from the time before the "dictatorship".

Greetings