[split] AssaultCube Score stuff

[Brahma]

We are talking about an opensource game, where anyone can edit anything and connect to any server (by their own risk of being blacklisted).

Officially we do not care if someone put it again via script, modified client, or anything else.

But there was a reason to remove the ratio from the scoreboard: the ratio whores. It was a huge discussion in the old forum about this, and the majority of the "respectable"/constant players agreed this is poisonous to the ac team play (mainly the pubs).

The dev's team want to promote the team work (this will become stronger in the future), and the ratio only rewards the cowards that protect themselves, the campers and the newb-hunters.

At least in 1.1, the nade only gets one point... and in a better future, the sniper headshot will provide only one point too (this became obvious to me after a comment from jamz).

[Hav0c]

Huh, then what's the point of a gib?
Getting a headshot on skilled players is actually quite harder than splattering them with your ULTIMATEHAXOTRONSHOTGUNPWNAGELIGHTNINGCANNONTHING.

[Gibstick]

One may argue that the instant kill of a headshot is reward enough. Brahma, will we get to that better future?

[Brahma]

@ Hav0c
Listen Gibstick... instant kill (and a nice gibbing effect) is enough reward!

@ Gibstick
I believe we can keep discussing it until we reach the 1.2 version (one year in the future? after doing a big re-code?).

[Boomhauer]

Sorry, but I don't agree with HS being 1 kill. Not at all. That means the same dude that is sniping and popping grapes from pure skill gets the same score as some dillweed in a corner crouching with his Shotgun. That isn't fair at all. While we are at it, lets petition the NBA to remove the 3-point line. That way the player shooting a 30ft jumper gets 2 points like the guy that just did a layup my grandmother could sink 9 times out of 10. Interesting concept.

The greater the risk, the greater the reward.... And a lot of people won't want to risk using the sniper at all anymore w/o the 2 point HS.

What are we doing here? I agreed with the grenades not being 2 points. But now headshots? This sucks....

[Brahma]

Boomhauer... I have a really nice code here to make the headshot more realistic (which would really make it worth 2, or even 3 points). But surely you would hate it.

In the way it is, it is like:
-> Aim high (breast-neck-head area)
-> Hit the head with 30% of chance (2 points), body with 50% (1 point), and lose only with 20% (0 points)
-> Mean score gain is: 0.3 * 2 + 0.5 * 1 + 0.2 * 0 = 1.1, where 30% of the times is instant kill!

So, the average player using sniper against normal players and newbs gets ratio > 2.0 always (instant kill 30% of the times means less damage, more efficiency).
It is so easy that even me (an average player) is able to do it (TheCrema, an experienced sniper, can assert this about me).

[Bukz]

I certainly hope the headshots stay at two points per as well, it is a very tough learned skill that should be rewarded through moar points! The grenades deserved to be only 1, but headshots, don't take away the 1 major perk to the weapon only because of a few bad apples that enjoy abusing things and ruining them for everyone else. :P

[Brahma]

So, what about keep the 2 frags but remove the instant kill?

[Shorty]

Brahma, stop trying to ruin the only good thing about the sniper rifle. its hard enough to kill consistently with headshots, let alone 'instant kills' getting removed.

[Robtics]

I agree with the headshot being only 1 frag if a normal frag is only worth 0.5 and maybe the grenade gib could be 0.75 :-*


About the ratio on the scoreboard: I myself do the basic math myself, its not hard and I dont feel like I always need to know the exact value of my ratio. Thats why I dont think this is reasonable.

[macm]

The scoreboard clearly says "Frags" and "Deaths", whats the point of having 20 frags if you only shot 10 guys in the head?

This could be sorted out with a proper "Score", awarding more points for HS and being the scoreboard sorted by the highest score, also medal awards for HS!

I know how hard it is to get a HS (not on a few maps like Depot), but i like Brahma's idea about increasing the instant kill hitbox and removing the 2 kill award.

The "Frags" should tell you how many players you've killed, not how many heads you've gibbed.

[ExodusS]

The scoreboard like this "flags/frags/deaths/ratios/score/ping;pj/cn/name" Is perfect now.

Headshot = 2 frags
Knife = 2 frags

It's just perfect./

[Orynge]

Maybe gibs can be worth two points for Aussies, because we're so laggy that the splash damage barely works.

EDIT: Oh right, good job, Castiel. Surely all the ratio whores can't all be reading the forum...

[CicloN]

I want nade back to 2 frags :D

Good, Job Castiel

[MorganKell]

Grenades never should have been made 1 point. As for the ratio part... just take what was used in 1.0.4? That worked pretty well.

[titiPT]

Nades should stay 1 frag, but 2 per spawn :p

Anyways, what Robtics said.

I agree with the headshot being only 1 frag if a normal frag is only worth 0.5 and maybe the grenade gib could be 0.75 :-*

[Robtics]

Nades shouldnt get touched anymore

[Brahma]

So, you do not want to change the 2 frag reward for the headshot, and do you still want to keep the instant kill?

Well.... it is really easy to do HSs.... I do 30% of the times against low/average opponents.
At least let me change a bit the code and make it worth to (simply increasing the spread by movement).

But I am talking to the walls.... since almost no one wants to lose an advantage.
Once makke said: "at the first time, we should never put the sniper in the game"... and the reason is quite clear to me when I enter in a crazy deathmatch and see average players jumping, dodging and doing HSs.

[Lantry]

I agree with macm, the score should be moved to the first column (after flags ofc) and should be the second most important column. that way, we can have frags be a true count of how many people you've killed, but still reward knives and HS's more. you could even rename it from 'frags' to 'kills', just to make it more distinct.
so the new scoreboard would be: | flags | score | kills | deaths | pj/ping | cn | name |

as for never putting in the sniper rifle, that kinda makes sense. AC is a close, quick game whereas the sniper is a slow, patient weapon that needs lots of room to work effectively. at least, that's how it is in real life; in AC, people complain even when it seems that the weapons aren't perfectly balanced.

[MorganKell]

It's called skill Brahma. Imagine you have a sniper rifle and you're trying to kill someone. Your weapon isn't automatic. It's a one shot one kill kind of thing. Now if you put a bullet in someone's head they're dead. So you start doing that constantly, or at least trying to, then you're going to become better at it. People who accept the sniper know that if they miss on that first shot then they're dead. A decent SMG or AR will rip them to shreds. However if they hit then their reward is instantaneous. They just put their lives on the line for the ultimate kill. They deserve that 2 point kill and instantaneous kill. It's the ultimate risk.

As for that "crazy deathmatch" you enter to see average players jumping and dodging and doing HS... Well I have to ask this... WHATS YOUR PROBLEM?? Just because they're average doesn't mean they're lower than you. Just because they don't code and map and play 24/7 doesn't mean they're lower than you. Just because they don't triple think and quadro-think everything doesn't mean they're lower than you. They're trying to get better. They're trying to become good players who don't have to jump and dodge (self-preservation) but who can kill on command.

"Never put the sniper in the game..." So would you like to add Aliens Resurrection and Sigourney Weaver to it as well? Would you like Plasma Guns and Deathrays? Do you understand what realism is? Sorry, let me rephrase that Mr. (Brazillian) Military or whatever you are... A sniper rifle is a part of warfare. That is what this game is about. That is what attracts people to this game. WARFARE. You decrease the sniper you are unfairly rejecting a profession of not just gamers, but actual soldiers. Actual Marines. You know what a Marine Sniper is? Of course you don't. It's someone who goes deep penetration to eliminate a target that is a threat to national security. They take their lives on the line to annihilate problems. I understand you might have a problem applying this to actual AssaultCube. So I want to put this simply. Realism in video games is the art of translating real life to the world of a gamer as best as possible. Remove a sniper, downgrade a sniper, and you're killing the realism. If we wanted fantasy, we'd play sauer-shit. We don't though. We want AssaultCube! We want real WARFARE!!

This is what I ask you. Quit being a noob and become a warrior. Start playing AC because you love the game. Not because you're a lucky brazillian who managed to get a dev title. STOP whining about headshots!! We've already lost the art of the grenade. A real weapon even on the scale of the sniper. Don't kill the sniper because you are too lazy to learn how to beat it. AC has been dumbed down enough. We don't need people like you trying squeeze out the last bit of fun.

[Brahma]

MK... the main issue is: I know I do not have skill... but I am still able to do it... so something IS WRONG.

btw... for your information, I used the sniper rifle in the army...

[Boomhauer]

btw... for your information, I used the sniper rifle in the army...

IRL the sniper rifle is quite useful, and necessary. Generally speaking though, as people snipers are usually scum that lack the courage to challenge their enemy face to face. This coming from my personal experience and opinion ofc, and not meant to offend. But to have left it out of AC.... would have been a mistake IMO. I don't think the game would have grown to its current popularity w/o it. There wouldn't be so many supremely talented, and generally intelligent people playing it. And likely it would not have the huge cult-like following it has. AC may have been blended right in with all the other O/S FPS's out there, and by now be all but forgotten.

More on topic, I don't want to mess with a modded client. Too many potential issues....
But V-Man can give you a simple script to tell you everyone's ratio in the console.
Remember, as Morgan mentioned before, V-Man prefers at least 2 PM's per person per day. Get to it. ;p

[titiPT]

In pubs there are people just standing still, easy to kill (headshot). In private games, no.

[Brahma]

Boomhauer

As I said to Robtics via PM... if the sniper perverts the original idea of the game (and it works so greatly), why not keep perverting it until we make it better and better?

I want more weapons (Bukz proposed to just add more weapons models, what is perfect to me at this moment), I want more maps, more modes, more models (including player models)... I want more simplicity (DOOM-like) and more quality (the old re-texture project). I want things that contradict each other and also contradict the essence of the game. I want all things that can make the game better and better.

The main issue is just: What is better?

To me it is still weird to have a quite easy instant-kill + 2 frags.
Something must be done.

Some people will advocate it is fun to rush-jump-dodge with the sniper and do regular HSs.... I say it is fun to play ac_douze ctf 10x10... and some others will say it is fun to play TwinTowers TOSOK 10x10. But these 3 examples are crap... the third is fixed, the second is in the TODO list, and imo, the first one should be fixed too.

[MorganKell]

Instant Kill + 2 frags = It is worth the risk. The sniper goes all out for the kill. What you don't understand is that if he fails he experiences the ultimate annihilation. Death. Chalk one up to the enemy, reset his map position, and start all over while still trying to guess whether the enemy has switched lanes or just kept on coming. This is a game after all. Allow people to have fun.

You can pick a better example than Twin_Towers and douze if you understand your opponent in this argument. Alas you don't... and given your inability to lower his unfairly given warning points, never will. But it is with hope and a sense of ftw that we keep reaching out to ones like you. Never give up and never surrender! The weak will always be protected! As for the Brazillian Army... they may want to upgrade. Considering the amount of coke you guys run down there, I bet you could get a sniper rifle that fires like a man. Of course I also thought you could accept that some level of unrealism is required since this is a VIDEO GAME.

[Ronald_Reagan]

What if the sniper +2 points only happens when the other player is moving. As it was pointed out, many noobs are sitting ducks. As in they dont duck.

[Brahma]

MK, you ignore my simple argument: It IS NOT DIFFICULT to jump and do a HS.... it is not risky...

Your personal attacks make me sad... I was expecting more from you than: "you don't understand", "your inability", "Mr Brazillian"...

You know... personal attacks are the first weapon of the unskillful and ignorant... which probably puts me in your level after this statement. ;)

EDIT:
@ RR
I like your way of thinking... good argument. It is comparable to increase the difficult (increase spread) if you are moving.

[macm]

As for the Brazillian Army... they may want to upgrade. Considering the amount of coke you guys run down there, I bet you could get a sniper rifle that fires like a man.

-1

All thats being taken into consideration is to add or not 2 kills (as if you killed 2 players). Not the quantity of cocain in Brasil.

For a more realistic view, 1 kill = 1 frag = 1 death, head and chest (maybe nuts? :P) should be awarded with a instakill.

[MorganKell]

Brahma buy yourself a halfway decent translator and then talk to me. You don't understand that I don't give a shit about maps like Twin_Towers, and douze. No real argument there. The mappers will disagree but to hell with them. They haven't even found a way to add Riverside to the official maprot. As for your inability... Question... Did you read my post? Or like always did you just start typing at the first sign of "We demand better from our brazillian devs?" I add brazillian because you hail from a nation of hackers. Maaad? Yea I don't care. Truth. You played .93 I assume and so did I. Accept that national heritage bro and let's please reply to the overall point of my post instead of just picking out one part and getting all defensive.

Personal attacks aye? You need to get out more. How is anyone supposed to have a lovey dovey discussion when they can get banned by their adversaries just because of a language barrier?

Personal AttAcKs aye? I don't hate you as a person. I just don't respect you because you think you're better than me without a lick of proof.

AS for PERSONAL ATTACKS. I'm attacking your forum profile, your ingame nick, your internet self... not you. Grow up man. This is a video game. I love this game, and I won't see it perverted by the likes of you. By the way (man up. This just a post. The game is more than this crappy Thank You button less forum).

As for the unskillful and ignorant... I resent that. I've been posting here when you were in diapers. I may not have "contributed" shit, but at least I know my limitations. How's your contributions coming by the way? Oh yeah, that's right. N E V E R M I N D. I am here to force you to refine your bullshit and turn it into something our devs and game can use. As for my level... it's untouchable. Unreachable except by the few and the worthy, which you have yet to prove you are. Time to step up bro and show us why you are here. By the way... Nice moves. :: points to counterattack :: But you're going to have to do better than that.

Edit - Give people a chance to play and learn how to use the sniper. It's a friggin pub game! Once they learn they'll join the ranks of Exoduss and old Undead. You'll have your skilled snipers. They become good because they want to. They don't need more obstacles like... "Why the hell would anyone bother learning sniper if a headshot counted the same as any other gun?"

[V-Man]

(Morgan... throwing mud at the characters of people who disagree with you is not the most efficient way to establish the efficacy of your opinions.)
I've never known what it's like to really count on improving my frag count 2-at-a-time using headshots, so forgive me if my sentiments seem unbased.
If headshots were reduced to 1 frag, I'd like to see a huge compensation for it reflected in the score. For that matter, score should have more attention paid to it as an indicator of skill and teamwork.
This way, a person's skill in making headshots can be seen in the end score without "disrupting" the frag/death count.