The AC Ladder Working Efficiently

[Alien]

@vern
The world is moved forward by the conflicts, the wars and the bitches. The more difficult is to develop cooperation. If you will go more deep to origin "why", the cooperation is based on grouping to bigger elements for purpose to get better position against united enemy. Even the love is kind of cooperation to survive in evolution. The cooperation itself is very interesting and it is very complicated to develop it. (try to write program which achieve the goal by positive relations ;))

So i think the fights in forum show possibilities for observers and improve their own attack, this way community develops itself. Next fights form groups for improving their position, they fight together, means cooperate.

[Bukz]

He stole the words right out of my mouth tbh. I could not of said that in a more elegant or understandable way.

GG AC.

[MorganKell]

Really? it was rude and disrespectful? Probably you have forgotten the disrespectful behaviour of a lot of people against Clown who hosted and developed the ladder to that time. Here you can read his last post to our clan after the AC community donee him with frustrating slurs and insults:

http://forum.tearyoudown.com/showthread.php?tid=1775

Stubborn refusal to accept apologies

[ketar]

Well, I honestly wouldn't call the TyD ladder "AC ladder", meaning that it was/is somehow "official". That wiki article does not seem correct.

One more guy without enough historical background. The ladder was introduced as "AC ladder" by its original developer acfan aka vi just before he become part of Tear you Down!. I have already described this here:

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-554-post-...l#pid10082

We do remember Apollo the rude and disrespectful way your honored ladder was shut down.

Really? it was rude and disrespectful? Probably you have forgotten the disrespectful behaviour of a lot of people against Clown who hosted and developed the ladder to that time. Here you can read his last post to our clan after the AC community donee him with frustrating slurs and insults:

http://forum.tearyoudown.com/showthread.php?tid=1775

So that wiki is only about Tyd Ladder

Really? So how does this article magically appeared on my screen?

http://wiki.cubers.net/action/view/HI-SKILL_ladder

Otherwise it should mention the other ladders we had. I can count at least three of them: Hi-Skill, of course, Brahma's one and IAF ladder made by Lucas

Wow, and there is also:

http://wiki.cubers.net/action/view/List_of_ladders (feel free to add some more)

The one Pwnage reestablished never succeeded, and was overtaken by HS

And the 1000 pages full of player nicknames in the TyD ladder database are also just an illusion. It's quite easy - the ladders have nearly three things in common: they based on AC, they use similar techniques in gaining data and they are creating somehow a player list. Some ppl like ladder a), others ladder b) and probably others a ladder c). So who cares.


Thx for proving point a)

Apollo are you that nitpicking?

I thought some like you was here also to raise the level ot the reasoning. But you concentrate only to prove that someone in the very prehistoric time decided to call his ladder the Ac ladder, and not on the other part of what I am saying. I can call myself king of Bunga Bunga, if the real Bunga Bunga crowned head doesn't say nothing... and yet I can not have at my disposition of all the virgins of that magic place.

I didn't say that the whole wiki section was wrong. I know the other posts you mention. I was just saying that THAT particular article is somehow misleading, since the Tyd is not the AC official ladder, and this for many reasons: because it was not connected, and still isn't, with the game scoring system. Because it is property of a person/group which is/are not the devs, i.e. the official owners of the code. Because in the past, for good or bad reasons, someone decided to close it in a (yes!) rude and disrespectful way (yes! at least against all the people like me who had nothing against him). I guess I am not the only one thinking like that. But this doesn't mean I am attacking Tyd or your operate and i Do like Pwnage and his spirit. But I know that people come and go, just like you, and until something as a ladder, so important for the game, depend on good or bad will of an individual, there will always be a risk.

I think we should move from that and have a real officlal ladder. Something that uses the same scoring system of the game (we now have one and finally is a scoring system that rewards actions done for the team), keeps records of all the players, that allows clan players to change tag/clan and keep his score, that has gold book with records, and that runs on servers well organized , with active and trusted admins often presents (btw, some of these things were active on HS and those were the reason of his superiority)

If I was a dev interested in the success of my game I would consider that as a priority. This not only for the "statistic" side and for those interested in their ranking, but also for many other more subtle reasons I am ready to discuss.

[Apollo{TyD}]

I didn't say that the whole wiki section was wrong. I know the other posts you mention.

And now you are contradicting yourself. Call it nitpicking, if you want. But you have said some allegations regarding the article content which shows the opposite.

I was just saying that THAT particular article is somehow misleading, since the Tyd is not the AC official ladder...

Show me the part on that article in which someone claimed that it is the official ladder. You won't find something. So the only irritating thing is probably the name. But in the same way Drakas chose the designation "AssaultCube WorldCup" for that event or the majority of the mappers add "ac_" to their maps, this doesn't mean that this has become official now.

...and this for many reasons: because it was not connected, and still isn't, with the game scoring system. Because it is property of a person/group which is/are not the devs, i.e. the official owners of the code.

Probably cause the game's scoring system was developed AFTER our ladder. Not to mention that this community reacting always extreme when you do changes which could affect the gameplay. So is it wise to use that scoring system especially as long it is more in an experimental state?

There is also two more reasons why it's "not connected" (same goes to the other ladders too). One is just a technical reason - the fact that all of this systems are using log analyzing to fill up the databases instead of analyzing stats directly, which requires several server modifications. The other thing is historical again: Round about two years ago several devs were more interested in participating in the ESL league which provides ladders too. As we all know, that idea is nearly down to the count today. But to that time it was understandable that the devs haven't no interest to make our ladder or part of it official.

Because in the past, for good or bad reasons, someone decided to close it in a (yes!) rude and disrespectful way (yes! at least against all the people like me who had nothing against him).

Sorry, that someone (or how I call him: Clown) took your toy away. But maybe you can project on his thoughts for a second: How deeply sore must a man feel when he shutdown a project in which he spend a lot of spare time to develop and maintain (unselfish and for free), and which made the game enjoyable. But if you still think this was rude, then I'm sure it won't take long and someone is writing the same about Drakas.

I think we should move from that and have a real officlal ladder. Something that uses the same scoring system of the game (we now have one and finally is a scoring system that rewards actions done for the team), keeps records of all the players, that allows clan players to change tag/clan and keep his score, that has gold book with records, and that runs on servers well organized , with active and trusted admins often presents ...If I was a dev interested in the success of my game I would consider that as a priority.

Yeah, instead of talking about or wishing that the devs are coding it, you can start a coding project by yourself. Or find someone who is able too. Everyone can do code contributions (maybe you or the guy who is doing it is becoming also a dev as award). If this becomes somedays stable and the official ladder, then it's easy to move the mentioned article, to add a few words and a hint box like "This article describes the ladder hosted by Tear you Down!. For the official AC ladder go here". Probably this will be then the point of time all remaining logbased ladders will be shutdown cause they become obsolete. Until then there is no need to change the article. So stop talking, start coding.

[ketar]

Yeah, instead of talking about or wishing that the devs are coding it, you can start a coding project by yourself. Or find someone who is able too. Everyone can do code contributions (maybe you or the guy who is doing it is becoming also a dev as award). If this becomes somedays stable and the official ladder, then it's easy to move the mentioned article, to add a few words and a hint box like "This article describes the ladder hosted by Tear you Down!. For the official AC ladder go here". Probably this will be then the point of time all remaining logbased ladders will be shutdown cause they become obsolete. Until then there is no need to change the article. So stop talking, start coding.

Ok so your main worry is that wiki article and the past
Mine is discussing a new ladder or a way to give new life to a suffering community (this of course is just a personal assumption based on my experience).

And forgive me, but that point - go and code yourself - is the poorest leg you can stand on. I am really tired of people saying such a stupid, useless thing. Like if there is only one way to contribute to things. Like if sharing ideas before acting wouldn't be the main value. Probably you didn't read what I say. I think the solution is a central one, and it doesn't have to depend on the efforts of a single clan/group/person. Otherwise we'll have again and again the same problem.

So Apollo go out and take a walk, breath and be happy. When I'll need again to dig minutely into trifles of the past and someone else's words I'll for sure call u. But when it's up to share ideas and look at the future you do not look to be the right man.

[pwnage{TyD}]

Ok so your main worry is that wiki article and the past
Mine is discussing a new ladder or a way to give new life to a suffering community (this of course is just a personal assumption based on my experience).

No one is stopping you. But before you do, consider that telling other people what to do or not, isn't the right way to go.

And forgive me, but that point - go and code yourself - is the poorest leg you can stand on. I am really tired of people saying such a stupid, useless thing. Like if there is only one way to contribute to things. Like if sharing ideas before acting wouldn't be the main value.

It is what it is. If you worked hundred of hours maintaining and improving a feature, you wouldn't just give it away over nothing. If you was to give it away you would have to make sure everything was documented, and above all idiot proof. Because you are sure you would get 100 questions from every person trying to install it why it isn't working by just uploading some files and adding some servers.

Sometimes not sharing is the wise choice.

Probably you didn't read what I say. I think the solution is a central one, and it doesn't have to depend on the efforts of a single clan/group/person. Otherwise we'll have again and again the same problem.

So how do you suppose this central solution would work? Last time I checked there aren't many developers. And their main contribution is actually developing the game itself.

So Apollo go out and take a walk, breath and be happy. When I'll need again to dig minutely into trifles of the past and someone else's words I'll for sure call u. But when it's up to share ideas and look at the future you do not look to be the right man.

No need to be rude.

[ketar]

You know, Pwnage. There is something wrong in this way of answering-talking dismembering someone else's thought point-to-point. Like that it seems that one is trying to find where the other is wrong more then trying to understand what he wants to say.

I could answer to you and Apollo showing word after word my objections. I could do it very well. But in this way it's easier to transform a civil discussion into a useless quarrel. And that has never been my intention, as it is not my intention to be rude. Sarcastic yes, maybe, when I am really pissed off if talks do not go to the points. So, no thanks: i will not answer this and that...

I just tell you that even if I like your work, and I always had good feeling and relationship with you (hope that they are *still* reciprocal) the Tyd ladder is not at the moment what I consider the optimum so to help the community to bloom again.

I'll give you some simple examples. Months ago I told you: wouldn't be possible in your ladder to transfer scoring if a player had changed clan (or nickname). You told me: no.
I think that this aspect - as others - is very necessary. Not that I care much for me (the proof is that I didn't ask Drakas to do it for me and I still have multiple accounts on the static HS) but for certain understandable motivations that most of players/clans have. And having a personal history/identity is one of the biggest motivation for someone to come back to a place.

Or another point could be the flags: The Crema is right. Having a flag means be recognizable, means have an identity, means meeting other people from your place... in this way you can recognize them, talk to them, you are more motivated to come back, you can have friends, you form with them groups and clans, and clans make websites... and so on and on. We all should remember that not all the people is fluent in English: for them knowing who is playing from their country is important too.

We could analyze hundreds of details like these that go beyond the pure technical side and refer to the interface and its functions and the possibilities that it implies or denies. But is there someone interested? Or we prefer to accuse each other?

If, and I say if, we want to reason around all the aspects that can give success to something as a ladder ( I used once the word "totem" to call the Tyd ladder in his best days and still I think that that word does the job), I am more then ready to help.
But to do that we at least should dismiss our defensive positions: I have nothing to defend if not my integrity and my good will. Maybe this is why I have no enemies here. Or at least I hope so :)

[Apollo{TyD}]

Ok so your main worry is that wiki article and the past

Don't confound cause and effect. I'm not that guy who pointed to that on the first place and with allegations I already have disproved. A simple "oh yes I haven't seen that HI-SKILL article before" or something similar were probably more honest as to get wrapped up in a discussion.

Mine is discussing a new ladder or a way to give new life to a suffering community ...

No problem with that

And forgive me, but that point - go and code yourself - is the poorest leg you can stand on.... Like if there is only one way to contribute to things. Like if sharing ideas before acting wouldn't be the main value.

Ah really? Over the past years probably hundreds of posts with ideas, suggestions and wishes have been done, filled one thread after another. The most things are buried in oblivion (well, who is really interested in reading every single post in such a thread especially when it's already reached the more-then-10-pages-mark, right?). The fewest of them have been discussed in a way that a serious concept could be recognized and still less have been realized.

Don't get me wrong - it's not bad to discuss things. That's also the beginning of all ladder histories here (same goes to the ESL idea, the mapping competitions and other ideas and of course several game improvements). But if there is no one who says to certain point "Hey, talking is fine but how about coding now" you will never see a new one. In our case it was acfan who started the ladder coding after several disussions. Drakas started his coding when the people complained the missing of a ladder. And pwnage recreated our ladder when people especially complained missing of our version. That's how it goes.

It's my personal opinion that in this community full of escalating discussions with a lot of repetitions. What this community needs is a handfull of new coders and coordinators. Some people who are willing to roll up their sleeves (like it was a few years ago) and to spend a lot of time. But it must be feared that all of these guys have been expelled already or they have become dispirited.

And now you can resume the discussion about future-oriented ladder things. Let's see what this does.

[ketar]

I don't get your point. You say we miss coders, but for what? You are not happy of the dev team and the new release? Or you think, just like me. that we need a new ladder? Sorry If I missed that, happy to count you in.
But if it is so, maybe we should first think and discuss what the new ladder should have, right?
Sorry, I am from the old school. First think...

[Apollo{TyD}]

I don't get your point. You say we miss coders, but for what? You are not happy of the dev team and the new release? Or you think, just like me. that we need a new ladder? Sorry If I missed that, happy to count you in.
But if it is so, maybe we should first think and discuss what the new ladder should have, right?
Sorry, I am from the old school. First think...

yeah, you don't get my point

[ketar]

So please let us know. What do we need coders for? What should they code? C'mon Apollo.

[Apollo{TyD}]

So please let us know. What do we need coders for? What should they code? C'mon Apollo.

Thought it's obvious - cause we aren't talking here in particular about apples and pears, but about ladders. And cause your wishlist includes a "more connected ladder" it must be probably someone with abilities to do server/client enhancements or at least with skills in programming server communication bots. Not to mention that knowledge about databases is also helpful.

[ketar]

Ha! Ok then. sorry if I seemed *stubborn* (mainly I probably am). But after all that discussion in defense of Tyd ladder, having you here asking for coders to make a new one wasn' t so obvious. Actually it s a quite a sudden turn, to my still-blue-eyes.

Yes, agreed. At the a certain moment we'd need experienced coders. And yes php and mysql I guess would be useful knowledges. But we also need some support from others. Is there anybody here apart you and me? I am sure someone is lurking.

[Xeoncross]

PHP? Did someone say PHP?

If you need someone thing written in PHP just let me know. I've written a couple frameworks and more libraries for API's than you can shake a fist at.

But I must admit that there are better choices for server communication than PHP. There are also better choices for databases than MySQL *cough* postgresql *cough*.

[Apollo{TyD}]

PHP? This is maybe good for the ladder webpage and for some fancy stuff there, but not for the ladder core programming which I have in mind. Imo there is a need to go deep into the code of the server. Otherwise the new ladder is in a technical way not that much different to the current ones (and therefore not really "new"). The chances to become a permanent and official part of the game aren't then not that big. [/my opinion]

[Xeoncross]

Yes, the best I have been able to do is about 1k requests a second using PHP. You can get more like 10k with some hard core C. However, if you want to provide a public facing API to interface with the DB and collect/share data - then It's a lot easier to build it in PHP.

Also, what do you mean by the "need to go deep in the code of the server"? The ladder server is only responsible for collecting, analyzing, and displaying data right?

[Luc@s]

yes, we already talked about that specific point earlier, sadly, as they often do, devs didn't anwer...
The question was about a ac-server-side solution to save stats... That would allow to improve a lot current ladders.

[V-Man]

:( Xeon, I didn't know things were so lonely.
* V-Man adds Xeoncross to friends list
The issue of getting familiar players together in one server is the reason I wrote friends.cfg (oh and also to see if there are servers with unsavory players on them XD).

[Xeoncross]

Problem solved. Seems one of the TyD ladders is now the "unofficial" server and has had more players on it lately probably do to that awesome name change and forum topics like this alerting everyone. Next along comes V-Man with his mad cubz skillz to sweeten the deal. ;D

[OpenSource]

The "unofficial" server is jamz's Server of Justice.
http://ladder.tearyoudown.com/scoring/

[V-Man]

For great justice!!

[Blue_Pr!nt]

there is of course at least 3 other ladders then TyD's

[MorganKell]

PHP? This is maybe good for the ladder webpage and for some fancy stuff there, but not for the ladder core programming which I have in mind. Imo there is a need to go deep into the code of the server. Otherwise the new ladder is in a technical way not that much different to the current ones (and therefore not really "new"). The chances to become a permanent and official part of the game aren't then not that big. [/my opinion]

You're not planning on coding anytime soon eh?

[Apollo{TyD}]

You're not planning on coding anytime soon eh?

I've busy enough in coding my own webprojects in real life. And happy for every moment of not looking into some scripts and listings.