The AC Ladder Working Efficiently

[Xeoncross]

I've seen a couple posts lately about the perceived problems that are cropping up now that HI-SKILL has left. However, I think much of the focus is on the wrong things. Some don't admit there have been changes - others can't see a solution and leave. I want to focus on the problem and what we as a community can do to fix it.

The problem is that we can't find each other.

There was only one single HI-SKILL server for a while. If you wanted to play you knew where to find it. The server also appeared to be located in a datacenter that provided low enough ping for each of the locations around the world were we came from. Personally, I found many of the other public servers had less ping (down to about 18ms!) but I knew that the people I wanted were on HI-SKILL and that was all that mattered. After a while, HI-SKILL separated them and we had a North America and Europe server which provided enough room for most of us without splicing the ladder into too many servers.

The HI-SKILL server(s) had a 12-14 player limit which was easy to fill and kept people wanting to get in. This created a desire in the players that it was a "special" server since it seemed to be loaded very often. As humans we always want what we can't have - not what is right in front of us.

Another thing I would like to point out is that a game full of pros, by nature, keeps beginners out. No one is going to play a game where they can't kill anyone - so they will leave and join an easier match freeing a slot for another pro.

Now take the real AC latter, last I checked it had over 15 servers in it. How am I supposed to know which one has the people I want? Even worse, how am I supposed to gather them together into a single server? I believe that the problem with the move back to the standard AC ladder is that we have a lost a central server and spread our players out too thin. Each of the 15+ TyD servers has about 1-4 good players and tons of first-time players. This leads to constant server swapping until we finally settle on a match with at least a couple good players - or we quit AC for the night.

I believe that we need a new master server from TyD - they need to set one of those servers apart as the place to be. If they don't have a server that is geographically central - then they need to drop a couple and get one good one.

By nature this process will complete itself someday - but I don't want to wait that long and risk losing anyone.

[Orynge]

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-2221.html

[Robtics]

There are 16 servers reporting to the TyD ladder, only 5 of them from TyD. I think that shows that there are quite a lot people showing serious interest in it.

Most of the time only 2 or 3 are full so wheres the difference to hi-skill? If you dont know who is in which server of them just press F2 or use the player search function to find your mates.

I believe that we need a new master server from TyD - they need to set one of those servers apart as the place to be. If they don't have a server that is geographically central - then they need to drop a couple and get one good one.

A new masterserver? Everyone would need a recompiled client to see the servers hostet on it in the serverbrowser, am I right? ( actually I am afraid I am not, correct me if I am wrong ;)) The TyD servers are hostet in France and Germany which is a pretty good location. Also there are so many other servers reporting to the ladder, that no one should have problems finding one where he has good pings on!

I just think, some people here dont want to play on the TyD ladder...

[Xeoncross]

Robtics, I get the feeling you didn't read anything I said and instead replied to me as if I was one of these other players you seem to be upset with. I'm not trying to find problems - I've heard enough of them - I want to put a solution in place.

Most of the time only 2 or 3 are full so wheres the difference to hi-skill? If you dont know who is in which server of them just press F2 or use the player search function to find your mates.

That is the problem - I am not looking for a couple friends. I'm looking for a server with everyone on it.

A new masterserver? Everyone would need a recompiled client to see the servers hostet on it in the serverbrowser, am I right? ( actually I am afraid I am not, correct me if I am wrong ;))

Sorry, for not clarifying, when I said "masterserver" I meant a designated (by word only) server that we as a community can expect to find each other one. HI-SKILL was that server - but it's gone. So one of the TyD servers needs to step up to fill that void. If they just make the move - we as the players will follow.

Also there are so many other servers reporting to the ladder, that no one should have problems finding one where he has good pings on!

Good ping isn't why people play AssaultCube. Good ping is only a nice addition. If someone wants good ping they can go play on an empty server by themselves.

I just think, some people here dont want to play on the TyD ladder...

Yes, like I said above I am finding many people resent the TyD ladder because of some of the problems I listed above. However, that is easily fixed by TyD and their affiliates deciding the new server that can bring this current server fiefdom to an end.

[OpenSource]

«HI-SKILL was that server - but it's gone. So one of the TyD servers needs to step up to fill that void. If they just make the move - we as the players will follow.»

What can they do?
Its we as players that need to step up and use the server.

[Xeoncross]

What can they do? Its we as players that need to step up and use the server.

The problem with us players picking is that it might lead to strife. If the admins pick it then we don't have a choice and just have to get in line. Kind of like that thread where everyone wants a different new weapon.

However, your trusted enough. If you want to spearhead that movment and pick one - go for it. I really don't care who picks it as long as it works.

[Woolly]

For those who keep saying: "I never know who is on, people are so wide spread, and so foruth"

Hop onto the ladder website, there is a page that shows which servers are active and who is on them.

I almost exclusively play on the ladder servers and I feel for assessment is wrong, they attract all types of players. There are days that there are mostly seasoned players on, and others that have noobs. That was not uncommon for the HI-Skill ladder, and at least with these servers they are kept balanced within reason. I quit the HI-Skill ladder, even though I had a good rank, because I felt many games were unbalanced with no admins to do the proper adjustments.

I'm sure those with 100+ hours on the ladder like myself will agree that these open critiques on the forum are rather useless. There are alternatives if you're unhappy with the ladder.

[Xeoncross]

For those who keep saying: "I never know who is on, people are so wide spread, and so foruth"

Hop onto the ladder website, there is a page that shows which servers are active and who is on them.

I'll say it again, the problem isn't finding people - that can be done. The problem is getting them all onto a single server. I have no problem with the TyD servers (some are much closer to me). However, it would be nice to know there was a more serious server out there for those that wanted it.

This isn't something hard to do or threating to anyone. It's just a simple elevation of one of the servers which could make everyone happy.

[Ronald_Reagan]

Master servers can be hosted without a recompiled client. There is a client switch for it (probably -m for all I know). However, that can easily fail as many people dont really want to go to the extra effort.

[Robtics]

Ty RR, learned something again ;)

Xeoncross, what can TyD do to create a new "masterserver"? Calling it The Hub @ TyD Ladder? I dont think that would do the trick, it would maybe attract more players that didnt know it was a ladder server but all of the good players know that already. Its up to the players like you and me to fill it up everyday and get some gg's running!

[Lightning]

Rename the TyD ladder to hi-skill and see the difference.

Those who play on the TyD ladder, play. Those who don't, don't. End of story.

[Syntax]

Actually, there was much more than 1 HI-SKILL server. IIRC, sometime in October/November 2010 there were 170 some players playing on a HI-SKILL server at one time.

I'll say it again, the problem isn't finding people - that can be done. The problem is getting them all onto a single server.

You're right.

Actually, I haven't read a post here that I disagree with. Everyone's points should be considered. I too, do not think a name like {TyD}Fairfax is very attractive, nor does it send off a message that it's all part of a network of servers to make a ladder.

[Apollo{TyD}]

Interesting. HI-SKILL was initiated to fill the void when TyD's ladder was shut down by Clown. Now some ppl think our ladder (which is back online since a while) should fill the void after the demise of HI-SKILL.

First off, TyD's ladder won't transform in a HI-SKILL wannabe in the same way HI-SKILL wasn't just a copy of ours.

If people have the need to identify a ladder server by the word "ladder" in it's name - well, maybe we will do so. Not that I think that we need it, but obviously some people are just to lazy to remeber a few names.

[Xeoncross]

Interesting. HI-SKILL was initiated to fill the void when TyD's ladder was shut down by Clown. Now some ppl think our ladder (which is back online since a while) should fill the void after the demise of HI-SKILL.

You make it sound like what HI-SKILL did for us was a bad thing. The internet is a free place, if HI-SKILL improved the way ladders work, then TyD should be free to take that improvement and run. There is nothing wrong with seeing something that works - and using it. I'm sure that's what HI-SKILL did...

If people have the need to identify a ladder server by the word "ladder" in it's name - well, maybe we will do so. Not that I think that we need it, but obviously some people are just to lazy to remeber a few names.

I'm not sure the word "ladder" in the title is the best option - but it's totally up to them. HI-SKILL added a URL so that people like me could learn it was more than just another common server.

I honestly don't care what it's called as long as we can all identify it as the one to use.

[Cactus]

TyD ladder doesn't collect enough data. No all-time, not enough stats. Obviously I can't do better, I'm just stating why I feel it has nothing on the old HI-SKILL.

It's weird I feel, that when the issue of no ladder being brought up always brings out the 'but there's the TyD ladder'. They're not the same. And doesn't the TyD ladder get wiped each month?

[eftertanke]

All Time

Monthly stats are collected and saved. Try doing some research before claiming that something has that massive of a flaw.

[ElCrema]

TyD ladder doesn't collect enough data. No all-time, not enough stats. Obviously I can't do better, I'm just stating why I feel it has nothing on the old HI-SKILL.

It's weird I feel, that when the issue of no ladder being brought up always brings out the
'but there's the TyD ladder'. They're not the same. And doesn't the TyD ladder get wiped each month?

Are you blind?? Seriously if you don't like the Tyd ladder its fine, but please, go and take a look before you post something like that, you just made a fool of yourself dude...
It was said up here but I need to show it again:

http://ladder.tearyoudown.com/totals.cgi
http://ladder.tearyoudown.com/clanwar/

That's a shit load of stats and data if you ask me.

[Cactus]

Still has nothing on HI-SKILL and I don't have any interest in playing on there for the ladder. Plus, unplayable for oceania anyway.

[OpenSource]

Your problem, isnt it?

Let us how care about clanwar stat on TyD ladder do it and if you dont, just freaking ignore the ladder stat site.

[ElCrema]

Pwnage should put the little flags before the nicks, I guess ppl miss them for some reason...

[bballn45]

the problem i have is to many servers to. so i live in the best place in the world, california. when i play its ussually around six oclock. -8GMT i believe. when i get on, there is two or three people in all of the tyd servers. there is never a full tyd server in this time because everyone is playing seperated. anyone else have this problem in my timezone?

[Syntax]

the problem i have is to many servers to. so i live in the best place in the world, california. when i play its ussually around six oclock. -8GMT i believe. when i get on, there is two or three people in all of the tyd servers. there is never a full tyd server in this time because everyone is playing seperated. anyone else have this problem in my timezone?

Ask on IRC to fill up one specific server. Drakas did that at one point, it went from 0 players in a server to 14 in a matter of minutes. It's amazing what can be done if you just ask! ;)

[pwnage{TyD}]

the problem i have is to many servers to. so i live in the best place in the world, california. when i play its ussually around six oclock. -8GMT i believe. when i get on, there is two or three people in all of the tyd servers. there is never a full tyd server in this time because everyone is playing seperated. anyone else have this problem in my timezone?

Ask on IRC to fill up one specific server. Drakas did that at one point, it went from 0 players in a server to 14 in a matter of minutes. It's amazing what can be done if you just ask! ;)

We did it a couple of days ago.

---

TyD ladder doesn't collect enough data. No all-time, not enough stats. Obviously I can't do better, I'm just stating why I feel it has nothing on the old HI-SKILL.

It's weird I feel, that when the issue of no ladder being brought up always brings out the 'but there's the TyD ladder'. They're not the same. And doesn't the TyD ladder get wiped each month?

Since you're interested, the minimum requirement for getting on the ladder is by gaining atleast 100 points once with your nickname for the current month. After that it updates your scores whenever you play on one of the ladder servers. It only requires gaining 100 points again when the month has changed.

As the hourly update runs, it also updates the overall rankings. When a new month have started you start with a clean cut for that month only, all old scores per month and overall are kept. You can check this easily by navigating the different ladder pages.

You also have scores per mode, per month and overall. Something which never the hi-skill had.

---

Still has nothing on HI-SKILL and I don't have any interest in playing on there for the ladder. Plus, unplayable for oceania anyway.

Ever tried the NZ servers?

[Cactus]

Deleted my post.

@pwnage: I have hardly seen any one use those servers since they were moved to TyD.

[Syntax]

I still don't really see the whole HI-SKILL > TyD/AC Ladder thing. I'm pretty adamant that HI-SKILL was at least two or three times larger (RK claimed it to be 4x, but I really doubt that) than the original AC Ladder back when it was running. But that's not because HI-SKILL is inherently a better ladder. It's just that more people played on it.

If you really want "competition" back to pubs and the ladder, you just need to play on it. There's nothing you can do, and no features to add to bring in players. Players don't play for signatures, or even a good rank. They play because other players are in it. Who joins an empty server? Hardly anyone.

Let's just pick one server and that'll be the one we'll all meet on automatically. How does {TyD}Champagne sound? I get awful pings on it because I live in Asia, but it's still not a bad thing to fill it up.

[Apollo{TyD}]

Well, I'm tired of this.

a) A lot of people are talking about TyD's ladder and still haven't any idea about the historical and technical background, the scoring or the contributing servers (there are also server in oceania available as already pointed out).

But hey - it's easier to talk without or less knowledge rather than doing a little bit research before (eg. reading this).

b) Now - after two months - some people slowly realize what they have lost with the shutdown of HI-SKILL. They claim that the lost ladder was played a lot more often, by a lot more players and of course by a lot of more skilled players. And where have they been at the end? Short after the shutdown only a very few people discussed ideas for a recreation. Maybe they stopped again, cause they found out that making a ladder is a bit more then just starting some servers and creating a SQL-table. I don't know. But everyone is free to do his own attempt in coding one or to ask Drakas for his code.

c) Beside all of this, it's my personal opinion that the decision to make HI-SKILL mainly to a 1.0.4 ladder was a catalyst for its termination. Without the connection to the main stream AC release it started to become a niche product for older player till they loose their interest. This might be the reason why soon after this decision also some 1.1.0.4 servers appeared (which means that the results of the two releases with so often claimed different gameplays have been mixed up).

[Xeoncross]

I think that the TyD ladder is a much better system. It has survived 2 deaths already and we still have it. The choice of ladders isn't a problem - HI-SKILL is dead - along with all my data (which isn't near what some people had).

So back to the original thread topic - finding people.

TyD is often short on people. So, since there hasn't been any other solutions posted I recommend TyD to set a server aside as a primary server for their ladder. It is the only thing I can figure out that could help us get everyone together using it.

If someone has another better idea then please share it. I might be wrong, but everyone else seems to be caught up in a argument rather than trying to find possible ways to improve the ladder(s). BTW, thanks Syntax for the idea to ping IRC, it's a bit of a bother to have to do that - but might be worth it for some nights.

I'd also like to thank the System Admins that are putting the time into maintaining these for us. I would donate one of my spare VPS if I thought another server would help the problem.

[ketar]

Well, I'm tired of this.

a) A lot of people are talking about TyD's ladder and still haven't any idea about the historical and technical background, the scoring or the contributing servers (there are also server in oceania available as already pointed out).

But hey - it's easier to talk without or less knowledge rather than doing a little bit research before (eg. reading this).

Well, I honestly wouldn't call the TyD ladder "AC ladder", meaning that it was/is somehow "official". That wiki article does not seem correct. We do remember Apollo the rude and disrespectful way your honored ladder was shut down.
So that wiki is only about Tyd Ladder ("Ve la suonate e ve la cantate" they say in italian... ). Otherwise it should mention the other ladders we had. I can count at least three of them: Hi-Skill, of course, Brahma's one and IAF ladder made by Lucas.

And yes, the first Tyd ladder I knew was working as a true meeting point for the community. The one Pwnage reestablished never succeeded, and was overtaken by HS, in spite of our fella good efforts and will.



Now, to be honest, Hi-Skill had many faults (and many strong points) But one thing is for sure: it worked as a central place for the community. And it had a popularity that could really present it as the AC ladder, for a while. I met Drakas the very first time when I posted on Tyd forum exactly when Clown closed his ladder and it wasn't exactly a "pleasure". But we worked on that and I am now shocked for the way this community couldn't find a way to keep him with us, or at least not to waste the heritage of his work. We should be grateful to him as to everybody who has been using energies, time and money to give others a better experience. Before Pandel's post I think I didn't see nothing here about Hi-Skill and the great lost all AC had.

Now we start to see the results of this behavior and, whatever you say, it's just so clear to my eyes that there has been a big change in the way people use and play AC.

But there are many many other things to say about this story. Things that go beyond the strict technicality of ladders and open to others interpretation/question/discussion

are we interested to think/discuss/elaborate them together?

I think again we should start from two words, both coming from ancient greek. One is agora. The other is anomie. Tough stuff. :)

[Apollo{TyD}]

Well, I honestly wouldn't call the TyD ladder "AC ladder", meaning that it was/is somehow "official". That wiki article does not seem correct.

One more guy without enough historical background. The ladder was introduced as "AC ladder" by its original developer acfan aka vi just before he become part of Tear you Down!. I have already described this here:

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-554-post-...l#pid10082

We do remember Apollo the rude and disrespectful way your honored ladder was shut down.

Really? it was rude and disrespectful? Probably you have forgotten the disrespectful behaviour of a lot of people against Clown who hosted and developed the ladder to that time. Here you can read his last post to our clan after the AC community donee him with frustrating slurs and insults:

http://forum.tearyoudown.com/showthread.php?tid=1775

So that wiki is only about Tyd Ladder

Really? So how does this article magically appeared on my screen?

http://wiki.cubers.net/action/view/HI-SKILL_ladder

Otherwise it should mention the other ladders we had. I can count at least three of them: Hi-Skill, of course, Brahma's one and IAF ladder made by Lucas

Wow, and there is also:

http://wiki.cubers.net/action/view/List_of_ladders (feel free to add some more)

The one Pwnage reestablished never succeeded, and was overtaken by HS

And the 1000 pages full of player nicknames in the TyD ladder database are also just an illusion. It's quite easy - the ladders have nearly three things in common: they based on AC, they use similar techniques in gaining data and they are creating somehow a player list. Some ppl like ladder a), others ladder b) and probably others a ladder c). So who cares.


Thx for proving point a)

[vern]

What is this thread called again..... I thought for sure it said "The AC Ladder Working Efficiently and bitch fest"..... I might be wrong. I think 95% of the threads started on these forums should say "and bitch fest" at the end of them. Actually, I'm pretty sure Bukz could script that for us.

If people would stop complaining, and whining, and blaming, and crying, and proving null points, and then trying to reprove that null point, and then get mad when someone thinks otherwise, and then continues to try and prove that ever so important null point and sound smart.........

If all that wasted time was put to good use, hell there might be two ladders, or three. There might be more than 5 good scriptwriters in the community, there might be better maps, new mods............

Don't reply to this post, because honestly.......I don't care what you think.