Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[makkE]

"SMG has virtually no range right now due to its spread."

Wich is the thing I don't get - sniper spread has not been touched since 0.9 - and it still handles easier than 1.0 now.

[Roflcopter]

"SMG has virtually no range right now due to its spread."

Wich is the thing I don't get - sniper spread has not been touched since 0.9 - and it still handles easier than 1.0 now.

What has sniper to do with SMG? Also, I think you mean "sniper spread is the same as in 0.9" since sniper spread was 47 in 1.1.0.4 and 60 in the latest SVN (rev. 6030); so it clearly has been touched since 0.9.

Basically, I don't understand your point! :)

[makkE]

You could have guessed I meant SMG, sorry. Of course I mean SMG spread.

[Roflcopter]

Hasn't the spread increased from 40 to 45 (1.1.0.4 to SVN rev 6030)?

{ "subgun", S_SUBGUN, S_RSUBGUN, 1650, 80, 15, 0, 0, 40, 15, 30, 1, 2, 4, 15, 40, 175, 1, true },

{ "subgun", S_SUBGUN, S_RSUBGUN, 1650, 80, 15, 0, 0, 45, 15, 30, 1, 2, 4, 30, 50, 188, 1, true }, // CHANGED : [reI,reB,reM] + spread

I mean, few people play SMG in clan matches right now due to its spread and an increase makes that worse still.

Also carbine has been neglected, while it's never played in clan matches already. If anything it needs a boost more than sniper (maybe extra 5 damage) but I don't think anyone would play it still. I haven't thought much about carbine though.

[Lantry]

Consider a sniper defending base who pushes out to around halfway in the map. Any decent sniper can almost guarantee a sniper shot in any encounter. So a player that attempts to push past the defending sniper stands no real chance. Even if he kills the sniper he cannot get 3 medkits in time to push into base so the sniper will kill him on the next encouter before he can get to the flag.

That coupled with AR needing 6 bullets to kill a player with 100 health and 25 shield (as opposed to 5 bullets in 1.1.0.4) makes this game decided sniper biased.

if i was player A with any other gun, i would still be able to get player b down to at least 50% health before he kills me the first time. with carbine or assault rifle, i could easily kill player a on my first life. the flag isn't supposed to be easy to get.

[makkE]

Roflcopter:
You have to take the new code for smg into account! Comparing what you find in server.h won't reveal the whole picture anymore. In 1.0.4 (where SMG was THE gun to use), SMG had a constant spread value of 70 ! Those valuse you talk of (40 and 45) only refer to the first shot fired (and increase for two more shots until they reach 70). The maximum spread of the smg (anything that happens after the first 3 shots) is as usual - 70. The way it's been since 0.9.

Effectively, the SMG has a lot more range now, if your aim is good, and you can get the first few shots in properly.

The reason why many people stopped playing the SMG is simply that the damage was reduced, and they were not used to having to aim. Now smg is right in between 1.0 and 1.1.0.4 concerning the feel and damage.

[Roflcopter]

You have to take the new code for smg into account! Comparing what you find in server.h won't reveal the whole picture anymore. In 1.0.4 (where SMG was THE gun to use), SMG had a constant spread value of 70 ! Those valuse you talk of (40 and 45) only refer to the first shot fired (and increase for two more shots until they reach 70). The maximum spread of the smg (anything that happens after the first 3 shots) is as usual - 70. The way it's been since 0.9.

Effectively, the SMG has a lot more range now, if your aim is good, and you can get the first few shots in properly.

The reason why many people stopped playing the SMG is simply that the damage was reduced, and they were not used to having to aim. Now smg is right in between 1.0 and 1.1.0.4 concerning the feel and damage.

Thanks for your explanation and putting up with my ignorance. :)

I don't know about the stats then, it feels very imprecise in play but it's also quite effective as long as the player you're shooting isn't partially hidden. I'd still prefer spread decreased as far as possible to reward accuracy.

So in terms of the AR and SMG, have any boosts been provided at all? I can't really notice any AR changes except the different number of bullets needed for shielded players. And also, what is "recoilbackfade"? :P

if i was player A with any other gun, i would still be able to get player b down to at least 50% health before he kills me the first time. with carbine or assault rifle, i could easily kill player a on my first life. the flag isn't supposed to be easy to get.

If I weaken a player to 50%, they will find a medkit or two and be full health (or very close) for your next attack. This coupled with the fact that very low health players defending their base will suicide for this very recent -- we do that all the time.

[Alien]

i don't like accounts with purpose. With this you cannot guys build balance in game. Of course profile of account brings part value of given information. i have none here. I think take it with respect but with reserve. Or can you please share with us your name, Roflcopter ? i don't say to ignore you but take you less serious.

For my feedback i need a bit time.

[Roflcopter]

i don't like accounts with purpose. With this you cannot guys build balance in game. Of course profile of account brings part value of given information. i have none here. I think take it with respect but with reserve. Or can you please share with us your name, Roflcopter ? i don't say to ignore you but take you less serious.

For my feedback i need a bit time.

I actually post like this since I didn't want my credentials known. I don't think it should matter who says an argument; rather the argument should be taken on its merits only.

Philosophy aside, I am |eR|Larry. I'm not a noob by any means (I mean we beat Only 3, 2v2 a few days ago)! Hope that convinces you to take me seriously, somewhat. :D

[RIPBillyMays]

This is probably common knowlege to most of you guys, but what are the current damage values per weapon for comparison the to new ones?

[Dade]

I don't think it should matter who says an argument; rather the argument should be taken on its merits only.

Finally someone saying what has to be said.

Just to give my point of view about game balancing:

IMO, game balance it's all but not giving all weapons equal chances of kill. I believe each weapon should have it's own purpose.

Thus I am not a shotgun player, I would take it as an example (as most people are complaining with it). Shotguns are intended for close combat, if you face them in a short corridor you should have almost no chances to win, unless they miss the shot of course :P. I don't think shotgun players are any noobs at all, they still need to get near you for the frag, so your movement to void them is simple as walk forward.

Actually I don't think 1.1.0.4 is so badly balanced, I'm just seeing 'oldies' players wishing to have the game as it was time ago to continue leading as they have been done since 1.1. Which is both egoistic and shows 0 interest about the game itself. Sad...

GGz!

[Lantry]

I think alll the gunz shud do liek 0 damag exsept the nife wich shud be lik 100000000000 damages and jsut kill all teh bad guyz

[eftertanke]

I think alll the gunz shud do liek 0 damag exsept the nife wich shud be lik 100000000000 damages and jsut kill all teh bad guyz

Hehe. F1...?

[Cage]

"..smg/sniper back to original damage"

A Dream come true.
- Thank you

[Panda]

We played a few matches:




I've played AR in both matches and I felt it was adequate but not too powerful. I should have tried SMG Des3 since the weapon should fit the map, but the match was too close for the longest time and I felt more comfortable with AR and the ability to outrun them. On power AR was just the best fit.

They've played Sniper (which is usually a no-no) and I think SMG/AR in Des3, but once you were hit by it there was almost never anything you could do. Hard to judge anything much from those games tho, will have to do some more :)

Here are the demos if you want to watch and analyze them: http://www.mediafire.com/?8s7w1uct6queywv

[eftertanke]

They've played Sniper and I think SMG/AR in Des3 (which is usually a no-no), but once you were hit by it there was almost never anything you could do. Hard to judge anything much from those games tho, will have to do some more :)

I've noticed that, but I think in 1.1.0.5 it's less devastating. You're able to get to cover before you get fragged; being caught in the sights of someone who has good aim doesn't mean that you're finished, like it often used to.

[Panda]

Yes the effect of a sniper hit was reinforced by the fact that the game was 2:3 on a smallish map which meant we didnt get that much armor. 3:4 on a bigger map was a completely different story, even though the map is much more sniper friendly.

[Darkbee]

@Dade, did you mean to quote yourself in this post? Anyway, I basically agree with you, I don't think anybody is suggesting that we have a pistols at dawn scenario where we each take a different weapon, take 10 paces, then we all turn, shoot and die. The biggest issue I have with the current version (official release) is that purpose of each gun seems to have been blurred (to varying degrees). People taking me out from halfway across the map with a single shot from a shotgun shouldn't happen (that is what the sniper rilfe should be for). If they're in my face, then yes, I expect to die. Similarly, people firing from long range with an SMG should not have the spread the size of an Orange (should be much bigger). An AR should beat an SMG at long range.

Essentially what we have right now is a rock, paper, scissors, where the rock mostly wins. I'd just like the paper to be able to beat the rock. :)

Perhaps I ought to test the development version, that might help, eh! :)

[Panda]

I've tested shotgun vs smg against Brett on scaffold and I think the shotgun is clearly to weak except for extreme camping behind corners or maybe vs. a lot of weakened opponents. We've played to 15 kills and when I had the SMG I won like 15:3 or 4 and when I had shotgun Brett with SMG won 15:7. I'm not a very good shotgun player, even though I have trained it in the 1104 version to be able to compare and had around my normal stats like with AR on a public (maybe a bit weaker). My estimate is that if I had better shotgun skills I would have been able to kill him maybe 2-4 times more.

If you have introduced ranged zones, how about making it 3? One which is point blank (2 cubes) and gibs every time if all (or all but one of the) pellets hit, then the one which is close (~6-8 cubes, same as the point blank range atm but a bit farther) and then the far range as it is now.

Note: I don't know how much a cube is, but when doing some theoretical testing with the SG it clearly seemed too close/too weak and so I've done some rough estimates.

Edit: Now I've tested SMG vs AR on desert and Marten won with AR 15:11 and with SMG 15:6. He was training SMG more than me and I personally prefer SMG on desert anyway, but still I think it shows that SMG is better than AR (on this map). Maybe someone should repeat the test with players equally skilled in both guns and the map, if that is possible. Also the SMG is MUCH easier to control. Maybe there would have been a different outcome if I hadn't ruined my fine motor skills for the day :)

[MykeGregory]

84 for the sniper?
i hope this dousnt cause a new wave of weapon specific noobs. first there was the shotgun, now it could be the sniper.

[V-Man]

First it was the sniper.

[Lantry]

There is always going to be a weapon that is most noob friendly, and we shouldn't worry about that (too much). What we should worry about is the balance between players of relatively same skill level. Make sure to take this into consideration when deciding your opinion of a gun. What may seem like a really overpowered gun might just be a weak opponent.

[Hav0c]

I think the shotgun is clearly to weak

Agreed :D

[jAcKRoCk*]

Worse still, if you have no shield and are hit by a sniper, you need 3 medkits to survive a single second shot. WTF? Basically, a sniper shot has turned into a death sentence.

That's the idea i mean it's a sniper not a watter pistol what did you expect?, besides if a sniper misses that first shot it's doom period, you need to learn to avoid that first shot, it's called estrategy something AC lost in the way of 1.0 to 1.1 but it's slowly coming back :)

---

Btw welcome back $hield :D

[castiel]

Worse still, if you have no shield and are hit by a sniper, you need 3 medkits to survive a single second shot. WTF? Basically, a sniper shot has turned into a death sentence.

That's the idea i mean it's a sniper not a watter pistol what did you expect?, besides if a sniper misses that first shot it's doom period, you need to learn to avoid that first shot, it's called estrategy something AC lost in the way of 1.0 to 1.1 but it's slowly coming back :)

---

Btw welcome back $hield :D

It's not really certain death if you miss, you still have a pistol with the potential to do up to 180 damage(10 shots * 18 damage), so even if you hit 30% you're looking at about 70 damage, or you can simply switch back to the sniper and finish them off.

I've played the svn a bit and I find that even against experienced players with other weapons I can fairly easily take them down as the pistol + sniper kills so quick, and leaves no room to recover(I say this being a horrible sniper, never having really used the weapon).

I also tried in a few other modes such as surv(which now has 100 health and 100 armour). No matter what the map, the sniper seems the best choice, killing in 2 hits which no weapon seems to be able to take down the armour in that amount of time, you can simply use it like a shotgun as it's unscoped spread seems like nothing.

I am a player who much preferred 1.0 aswell, but the sniper in this seems much stronger due to the larger pistol clip and the weakened other weapons. Either that or I just don't remember how dominant the sniper was in 1.0.

My only suggestion/thoughts would be somewhere along the lines of putting a longer time between the shot and changing to pistol, cause the sniper hit + pistol kills anything almost instantly(I don't actually have the time, i'm just assuming it it less cause it seems it :P).

[Hav0c]

Either that or I just don't remember how dominant the sniper was in 1.0.

I F1 that it was the most dominant weapon in 1.0, the sniper + pistol combo was way too smexy...

My only suggestion/thoughts would be somewhere along the lines of putting a longer time between the shot and changing to pistol

I disagree with your suggestion/thought Cas :P Dont change the time it takes to change to the pistol after the sniper shot, just change the damage of the pistol, or get rid of some shots in the pistol clip. How many pistol shots does it take to kill an enemy after the sniper shot? I think its 3... :S, keep it at 3 and it should be fine.

Oh and if your playing with a skilled Smg'er/Ar'er and you miss the first sniper shot(which is unlikely if your good at using it D:.)Your practically a dead pixelated guy :P. That is unless you pull off a hs straight after missing, and they miss a few shots....

[Fate]

....That is unless you pull off a hs straight after missing...

Is sadly. You.. :P

And.

...and they miss a few shots...."

Would be me, if I had your mouse. xDD
____

Anyways, yeah the sniper was dominant in 1.0. But so was the SMG.
Considering the SMG as it is now...I sometimes regard it as a very underestimated weapon to use.
When used by an experienced player, the SMG is still a formidable weapon of choice.

(In 1.0 we had SMG "noobs", and now in 1.1 we no longer have SMG "noobs" but Shotgun boobs noobs)

[Hav0c]

Lmao, i agree with the second quote, and maybe the first. xD

(In 1.0 we had SMG "noobs", and now in 1.1 we no longer have SMG "noobs" but Shotgun boobs noobs)

And its also AR n00bs in some cases.

[Chill]

I actually like all of the balancing that has been done. Although i do agree that the shotgun's effective one shot range should be 6-8 cubes, which, i think, would fix it. The reason the sniper didnt seem as overpowered in 1.0.4, was because the SMG could usually beat it at medium to close range, now that the SMG is as powerful, the sniper seems more powerful. When in reality i think the sniper is perfect where its at.

[makkE]

The effective one-shot range of the shotgun actually is 6 cubes at the moment. We might try 8.
If not in the range, the maximum reachable damage is 84 at the moment.