Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Ronald_Reagan]

Havoc, the shotgun if anything needs either more rays, or less spread. Maybe all the bullet holes aren't showing up when I shoot the wall, but I dont really see that many shots there.

[Lantry]

yeah, i just used it a little in the beta, and it is very weak. i emptied 6 shots into someone, at a range which would have taken two with the old one. I think they had some armor, but it still seems weak. I suppose this is better than the alternative.
meanwhile, the sniper has become really powerful with anyone who knows what they are doing. I think that especially with 10 shots for pistol, the sniper should be taken down so it takes two hits after the sniper shot.

[Vermi]

cmon sheild get on topic.

Also Carbine goes up in strength. AR needs a little bit more of help. Maybe add like 2-5 more bullets or something? That would be it

Ammo isn't an issue with the assault rifle

[Hav0c]

My bad, lol.
Sorry if my rambling on wasn't about the right version XD

[flowtron]

Ronald_Reagan: yes, the bulletholes are only a fraction of what actually gets shot into the world .. this is done to limit the fps-drop that each new drawn particle introduces. The new shotgun-code actually fires 3 times the amount of rays than before.

[Panda]

cmon sheild get on topic.

Also Carbine goes up in strength. AR needs a little bit more of help. Maybe add like 2-5 more bullets or something? That would be it

Ammo isn't an issue with the assault rifle

Unless your accuracy is well over 50%, it is an issue.

[Apollo{TyD}]

Well, I'm probably one of a minority group which were confident with the 1.0 settings (with all consequences which includes also a dominance of the smg over severall weapons) and - after a long time of adapting - also with the settings of 1.1. I don't deny that the new settings of the shotty was for a longtime shotgunner like me quite helpfull (and in my eyes a good revenge for a lot of kills by smgs, ARs and at least Snipers over the years). On the other hand my enemies learned the use of protection, the knife and at least of the akimbo, which is in my eyes more used than ever now.

With the newest settings (beta 1.1.0.5) the shotgun is nearly useless now imo, its castrated. I will miss the going into infights (like sg vs smg), cause (nearly?) every other weapon is superior to this. The smg seems to have less recoil now, therefore a lot of players will prefer this weapon and making it to the #1 noob weapon again. And also the AR seems to have less recoil :(.

Well, imo this whole balancing stuff has more ruined then helped.

[makkE]

Both AR and SMG have more recoil than in 1.1.

[Mr.Floppy]

It's quite tough to judge on weapon balancing as I hardly ever play clan matches and on the pubs you can go with any gun usually. Though, this evening I had some games with skilled players and here's what I've experienced.

- The shotgun feels quite weak, especially on mid range. Even with dead on aiming you can't beat any other weapon except for a knife. Three shots simply take too long, while a SMG can easily empty a whole clip into you...

- The sniper is somewhat back to 1.0.4 and I already got annoyed. If your hardware can handle it (mine can't), you can easily switch from primary to pistol damn fast. I had several situations I couldn't even start turning around, when I was fragged already. It's quite weird that the weapon which already allows for frags by one shot (headshot), leaves no time for action, when used by a good aimer, even without headshotting.

- Ten bullets for the pistol are nice. Now it's a real alternative if you're running out of primary-ammo within a heated battle.

[Mai Mee Tur]

yeah, i just used it a little in the beta, and it is very weak. i emptied 6 shots into someone, at a range which would have taken two with the old one. I think they had some armor, but it still seems weak. I suppose this is better than the alternative.
meanwhile, the sniper has become really powerful with anyone who knows what they are doing. I think that especially with 10 shots for pistol, the sniper should be taken down so it takes two hits after the sniper shot.

Right now, it is two shots with the pistol, they boosted sniper damage up in the SVN, to my understanding, which is fine with me, I miss the SMG v. Sniper days.

I think the shotgun could be more of a mix between 1.0.4 and 1.1, in the SVN, it's a lot weaker than in 1.1.4, which is fine, but it's like bringing a water pistol to a knife fight.

[Apollo{TyD}]

Both AR and SMG have more recoil than in 1.1.

Well I have a quite other feeling (and the most arguments here are based on feelings) - the weapons stay more on target; therefore they are easier to handle. Also my oppenents yesterday said "it feels smoother". So if it's not the recoil value then something else works against it. W/e my major concern is not the SMG nor the AR, its the SG.

... but it's like bringing a water pistol to a knife fight.

Nice said.

[Mr.Floppy]

[...]
Also my oppenents yesterday said "it feels smoother". So if it's not the recoil value then something else works against it.

Yep, that's what I said.

Actually, it feels esier to handle the recoil as it seems to be more linear than in 1.1.
On the beta issue I can keep dead on target by pulling down the mouse stadily while firing, quite smoothly. On 1.1, it felt like the recoil wasn't that linear increasing and so you always got "jumps" while pulling down the mouse. At least that's my impression.

Though, this can have a lot of other reasons.

[CyberKlown28]

I'd rather have an underpowered shotgun(that can still one hit kill close range) than whole teams one hit killing with overpowered shotguns. I still like the AR to 25 damage+more recoil idea, seeing as many are calling it weak...and nobody uses it.

[pwnage{TyD}]

The shotgun is to weak, perhaps a tad more powerful would just give us the value we're looking for.

[Lantry]

this should probably go in the ideas thread, but it applies to balance also, especially with the shotgun being the focus of most of the balancing.
what if it was a double barrel shotgun instead of pump action? that way you could have two quick shots with more power, and then the reload time? this way, you could reliably kill someone at close range, but wouldn't be able to tank your way through the enemy's base.

[CyberKlown28]

^like the olympia on black ops?
sounds good to me.

[Nightmare]

I'll be happy as long as the shotgun stops ohk'ing at a short-mid range, and only ohk's when its in your face.

and as for smg vs AR
same killing speed.
smg has 10 more bullets in the mag.
smg hardly blows you back, and has fairly easy recoil to handle.
smg has faster reload.
smg-3 ar - 0
:) I use the ar because I hardly ever see it in games used by anyone else :(

[Lantry]

I'll be happy as long as the shotgun stops ohk'ing at a short-mid range, and only ohk's when its in your face.

and as for smg vs AR
same killing speed.
smg has 10 more bullets in the mag.
smg hardly blows you back, and has fairly easy recoil to handle.
smg has faster reload.
smg-3 ar - 0
:) I use the ar because I hardly ever see it in games used by anyone else :(

you forgot to mention
AR has better accuracy/less spread
AR has more damage per bullet
AR recoil can be very useful in some cases (rifle sprint/jump)
smg - 3 ar - 3

[Elite]

forget this overpowered AR, its just for noobs also like the shotgun and this rifle jumping is awful, best example the legacy clan. The smg in the SVN is fine. Well, sniper can still pwn with 2 pistol shoots, but i dont matter if it get back to the same like in 1.0.4.

[Nightmare]

I'll be happy as long as the shotgun stops ohk'ing at a short-mid range, and only ohk's when its in your face.

and as for smg vs AR
same killing speed.
smg has 10 more bullets in the mag.
smg hardly blows you back, and has fairly easy recoil to handle.
smg has faster reload.
smg-3 ar - 0
:) I use the ar because I hardly ever see it in games used by anyone else :(

you forgot to mention
AR has better accuracy/less spread
AR has more damage per bullet
AR recoil can be very useful in some cases (rifle sprint/jump)
smg - 3 ar - 3

@ damage per bullet. same killing speed so I canceled that out instead of giving a plus to the AR for it's stronger(but still weak) bullet damage and smg for fire rate.

does it have less spread? all I know is that it's crosshair widens up after 5 full auto shots, and the smg stays smooth.

and both can rifle jump and sprint well enough, but yeah AR is stronger in that area.

From the public games I've played in, the AR is easily the least used.(only thing I use nowadays though)

---

^hint hint 25 damage AR ftw?

[Gibstick]

Did you even test the new AR? 25 damage AR would be too much, as it would be able to kill in only 360 ms.

If you did test: test more
If you didn't test: test more

[Nightmare]

Beta doesn't work for me :)
changes haven't been too drastic from what I read though :o @ AR
25 damage + more recoil/blowback = win ;3 and it might not get used any more then...

[Nightmare]

GG earlier lantry :o <3

[WhiteBlade]

Well, the Beta test doesn't convince me...

Assault Rifle: The handling, the recoil didn't change, it's still the same in 1.1 but the damage would be ok.

Submachine gun: It's a bit stupid to add more recoil like in the past version. Really, a SMG should have less recoil than Ar's even if the spread and the fire rate of the SMG are higher. I prefer its recoil in 1.1.0.4 . Concerning damage, not really impresseive: 16 damage. We wouldn't see the difference if we killed an unarmored or a full armored...We need 10 rounds to kill a full armored: it's truly a disadvantage for this weapon. But against an unarmored, still 7 rounds...

Sniper Rifle: Well...Nearly welcome back in 1.0 with 2 less damage and pistol combo : 83 damage + 18...You should have noticed that the round pierces the body but doesn't kill by one shot, one kill... If someone is behind the enemy that you want to kill him; the person who is behind him won't receive the damage: you can't make serial kill by one shot, one kill; even if you make a serial head shot... The pierce of the bullet is a bug

Shotgun: Finally less powered but it's still a disadvantage at short range and at mid-range The random damage depending of the distance might be a disadvantage too: you have to make a shotgun + knife or shotgun + pistol to finish him.
For the extra damage, you have to be at least 6 cubes of him.
A one shot, one kill: at least 7 cubes
At least 8 cubes: you have to shoot twice to finish him, it's reasonable.
At over 8 cubes, it will depend of you how you would kill him... But do not give up or rage if you can't kill him. You have to train harder.

Carbine: Nothing to say, it's the same in 1.1

Pistol: Even with an extended magazine the pistol can be an advantage to kill an unarmored enemy, the akimbo ammo stock is too much: you can kill 3 unarmored enemies with only 20 rounds. With 100 rounds, you can kill 15 enemies in total without be killed and without pickup pistol ammo
Its handling is the same but I don't think the pistol has more recoil in 1.1.0.5, it's the same since past versions


This new version won't motive me enough to keep playing this game...
I'll change mind until you'll make some modifications about weapon balance

[Roflcopter]

Here are my feelings on weapon balance in SVN:

- AR: Often I keep my cross-hair over a far away enemy and get practically no hits. The spread is just too large. The AR is too random at long range.

- SMG: I can't control it properly at all. It's not especially better at close range than the AR, but so weak at long range. Although this might be my poor control of it, I haven't seen anyone else handle it well either.

- Sniper: There is no defense against an enemy who can perform the sniper+pistol combo very well -- it kills quicker than an AR player who has to hit at east 5 bullets. Trying to bait snipers shots works somewhat but really isn't a full defense. Against a sniper you're at the mercy of their skill and luck, almost regardless of your own!

- Shotgun: Just far too weak. Sometimes very accurate shots at close range don't even kill.

- Carbine: It's very effective in pubs on ac_douze but not really beyond that. I'd like to either see it used by some good teams or removed from the game.

[Gibstick]

What is your SMG accuracy Roflcopter? Mine didn't change from 1104 to 1105, but did yours?

BTW the akimbo is supposed to be a powerup. Though I'd prefer the quad damage.

[Roflcopter]

What is your SMG accuracy Roflcopter? Mine didn't change from 1104 to 1105, but did yours?

I was able to compare my accuracy in two duels today on ac_desert. My accuracy in 1.1.0.4 was 31%; in SVN 29%. I found myself pulse firing far more in SVN, otherwise the recoil seems to go crazy.

[Gibstick]

Hm I just played again. My SMG accuracy could get up to 40% in 1104, though 30% usually. In 1105 my accuracy dropped down to 29% at best when I played against Robtics (grrr).

[Nightmare]

^it has gotten tougher to control :(
what is your accuracy with the "Assault" Rifle?

[Roflcopter]

^it has gotten tougher to control :(
what is your accuracy with the "Assault" Rifle?

It's much harder to say since I make use of rifle sprinting heavily. The accuracy for my AR in 1.1.0.4 was usually 25-30%; however I am fairly sure I'm more accurate with the AR than the SMG, so I think my accuracy is likely 35%-45% excluding rifle sprinting and pre-firing.

The higher recoil is fine really -- especially if it was balanced with slightly lower spread. In general I think the game should move in the direction of increasing recoil but reducing spread. This rewards genuinely good players versus those who "spray and pray".