Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[VenteX]

What's this? 180 milliseconds is practically instantaneous?
In 180 milliseconds, my SMG can pump up to 45 damage into your carapace.
Anyone remember that website with the reaction test?

Who said I would need to scope at close range xP? Normally, the sniper should be screwed at close range, but that's not how it always is... yet. Remember, current noscoping is a pretty little line.

[Nightmare]

back to the point we go!
I'll throw out some controversial ideas and get things started.
(inb4 Rage Dracula is better.)

AR needs to go back to 15 rounds per mag, be 25 damage, have more forceback recoil, and have much less spread. Which means less kills per mag than current AR. Tougher to control, hence balancing the 4 hit kill on unarmored. And stronger rifle sprinting and jumping.

Carbine needs 70 damage!

yay have fun attacking the ideas ;)

[castiel]

back to the point we go!
I'll throw out some controversial ideas and get things started.
(inb4 Rage Dracula is better.)

AR needs to go back to 15 rounds per mag, be 25 damage, have more forceback recoil, and have much less spread. Which means less kills per mag than current AR. Tougher to control, hence balancing the 4 hit kill on unarmored. And stronger rifle sprinting and jumping.

Carbine needs 70 damage!

yay have fun attacking the ideas ;)

No @ AR changing, it is currently good at what it is, both it and the smg have perks and flaws making them equal weapons, 4 kills unarmoured is utterly ridiculous.

Carbine should not be 70, that would equal 1 hit + 2 pistol, much too powerful, and would be as good as the sniper in the current version.

[ChaoticToSayTheLeast]

Carbine needs to pwn! >:OOOO

[YourSister]

AR: more recoil pliz, so more riflesprint and more difficulty management
SMG: ok
SR: ok
SHOTTY: pore power from long and mid range, it is rarely used n clan matches
CARABINE: less time between shots will make the difference

[Nightmare]

No @ AR changing, it is currently good at what it is, both it and the smg have perks and flaws making them equal weapons, 4 kills unarmoured is utterly ridiculous.

Carbine should not be 70, that would equal 1 hit + 2 pistol, much too powerful, and would be as good as the sniper in the current version.

Maybe I'm wrong, too lazy to go check, but isn't the carbine's fire rate faster than switching to the pistol and putting in two shots?! If not, then compared to the beta's sniper...it'd still be behind if we go by pistol combos.(and equal to current release sniper...which is not overpowered at all..)

and @ bold...
if you mean the 1.1.0.4 sniper(official current release) then...that wouldn't be overpowered for the carbine. If you mean the beta version weapons, then the sniper is already the haxxors and the carbine needs a boost(or sniper needs to come back to earth)

Yay <3

[MCS]

@ V-man Your reaction time site request
http://getyourwebsitehere.com/jswb/rttest01.html

[V-Man]

Thanks MCS!

(avg. 210 milliseconds while holding a crying baby)

[makkE]

We based the value on reaction tests like these. Only very few people get constantly below 180msecs in such a setting. Most people with good, trained reaction are in the 180-200 range, average people are typically in the 200-300 range.

[Dark$aint]

Average: .233
I got a .188 on the last one o.O

[Roflcopter]

I think it's alot harder to rate balance now with sniper vs AR and SMG since there was a bug which mostly only affected AR and SMG. For that reason, I'm going to wait for the improved hit registration before commenting on balance any more. I have a feeling that the balance may work out very well then, since every weapon will be effectively quicker to kill than before: sniper with one less pistol shot, AR and SMG with full hit registration, shotgun with improved consistency.

We based the value on reaction tests like these. Only very few people get constantly below 180msecs in such a setting. Most people with good, trained reaction are in the 180-200 range, average people are typically in the 200-300 range.

I think you're spot on the reaction times there. Some members in legacy tested their reaction times a while back and none of us could manage under 180 although a few, such as Sepehr, got close. For instance, my reaction time this morning is ~187ms (average of five rounds) -- not bad for being a little hung-over.

[Lantry]

so, about that weapon balance...

[V-Man]

I love it.

[jAcKRoCk*]

200 in My iPod FTW

[Xenon]

/offtopic/ I have slow reactions, 286 milliseconds on average.... :D

[VenteX]

@V-Man: Yes, you would have put out 45 at 100% accuracy, and I would have put out at least 83 at 100% accuracy. Your point?

@makKE: Ahh, I see, so you included average reaction when making the sniper's stats, but only when making the sniper's stats. Seems perfectly logica- wait a minute... Doesn't that reaction time apply to everyone regardless of what weapon they use? Just because V-Man has an SMG doesn't mean his reaction speed is suddenly 0ms. Seems a bit fishy if I don't say so myself...

@Everyone Else: Please, let's get back on topic here. There's practically enough posts here about the reaction test to make a new thread.

[Lantry]

@Everyone Else: Please, let's get back on topic here. There's practically enough posts here about the reaction test to make a new thread.

I see what you did there

@makKE: Ahh, I see, so you included average reaction when making the sniper's stats, but only when making the sniper's stats. Seems perfectly logica- wait a minute... Doesn't that reaction time apply to everyone regardless of what weapon they use? Just because V-Man has an SMG doesn't mean his reaction speed is suddenly 0ms. Seems a bit fishy if I don't say so myself...

lets sort this out. the scenario is, two players round a corner and come face to face with each other. one is using the sniper, the other is using the SMG. both players are adequately skilled with their weapon(s), so we can assume 100% accuracy. we will also assume they have the same average reaction time of 215ms

Sniper: 215ms (to register enemy) + 180s (to scope in) + X (to aim and begin firing) + 215ms (to register hit) + 200ms (to switch to pistol) + 320ms (to shoot pistol twice) = (1130 + X)ms (or 970ms with one pistol shot like in 1.1.0.5)

SMG: 215ms (to register enemy) + X (to aim) + 560ms (to shoot seven times) = (775 + X)ms

this gives us a difference of 195ms (for one shot), which is pretty short. keep in mind that this is at close range, where they both have 100% accuracy. as the distance increases, the SMG will lose accuracy, which will cause their total time to increase with distance. the sniper, at long ranges, while having to use two shots instead of one + pistol, will definitely have the advantages at long ranges, as their accuracy should remain near 100% no matter how far it is.
That said, this is a hypothetical situation, and it doesn't count in any factors that can't be accurately measured. If you feel i have left out something from my calculations, please correct me.

Anyway, i guess what this is saying is that the calculations are pretty good for two shots, but if you take it down to only one shot, the sniper is at least equal to smg at close range, which shouldn't happen. I would recommend a longer settling time for the scope (500ms?) because that would tip the balance back toward the smg, with smg getting a kill 515ms before sniper. of course, if you no-scope, the sniper would still be able to compete with smg, so you would probably have to increase the spread by a decent bit to completely snipers from close combat situations. of course, you have to remember that AC is a relatively close range game, so the sniper will probably always be used at shorter ranges than it really should be.

VenteX also made a good point that if a player has near 100% accuracy, they will probably not be waiting to hear the hit sound before they start switching to the pistol, but i have no idea what that value would actually be, and i don't want to start making up numbers. However, this only strengthens my argument that the sniper is too strong in CQC.

[Greifenstein]

Carbine should not be 70, that would equal 1 hit + 2 pistol, much too powerful, and would be as good as the sniper in the current version.

The main problem is: the AR is too powerful compared to the carbine - if there´s a little LAG and you fail to hit the enemy, you´ll practically be dead before getting another hit on him / switch and pistol whip him. Maybe a solution would be to increase the pistol accuracy (or perhaps the damage) a bit. Or just lower the AR damage so that it needs +1 hit to kill, 5 or something. A faster firing rate of the carbine would feel weird.

[Nightmare]

^nooooo @ "nerf the AR" talk. I'd rather have it boosted to 25 damage, though it scares too many people for that to happen...even though it's recoil is ridiculous and gets overpowered by same killspeed/easier to handle SMG.

Carbine needs some kind of change for the new release :(
even if its a very slight fire rate/power change. It'll get lonely if no changes happen, and we need happy weapons.

AR needs, if not a boost to 25....much less spread. An all around weapon should be able to shoot long distance, the beta's AR was kind of iffy even with bursts, long range. ._.

[V-Man]

@V-Man: Yes, you would have put out 45 at 100% accuracy, and I would have put out at least 83 at 100% accuracy. Your point?

Hm, now I can't remember. You've made some good points yourself. I suppose all I was getting at is that it seems to have been a while since I was really dominated by a sniper (Robtics excepted).

If you feel i have left out something from my calculations, please correct me.

Nah, those equations pretty much rawk. Feel like figuring some mediocre armor values in there? :D

[CicloN]

AR - I Agree with YS
SMG -I Agree with YS
Sniper- I Agree with YS
Shotty: Shotgun is now shit on mines :O
Carbine: I Agree with YS

[VenteX]

I can add a couple things to those calculations:

- We're talking about 1.1.0.5, where the sniper-pistol combo only takes ONE pistol shot.

- There isn't really a "time to register hit" unless you are listening for hitsounds, and you usually respond to reactions that you started much faster than normal anyways.

Counterpoint! AUGHAUGHAUGH!

[Greifenstein]

* Greifenstein requests instagib for the carbine.

[Lantry]

- We're talking about 1.1.0.5, where the sniper-pistol combo only takes ONE pistol shot.

- There isn't really a "time to register hit" unless you are listening for hitsounds, and you usually respond to reactions that you started much faster than normal anyways.

-true, however this just makes my final conclusion even more valid

-I usually wait for hit sound so i don't try to pistol whip them at full health, but then again, i am no pro sniper, and i did say that they are skilled enough to expect 100% accuracy. I'll edit the equation to take this into account. Of course, like your first point, this just makes the sniper even stronger at close range, and strengthens my initial conclusion.

[VenteX]

...this just makes the sniper even stronger at close range...

That has beem my point in the first place, the sniper-pistol combo is too powerful/fast, as is using the sniper for CQC in general. My idea was to increase settle time and make noscope spread failworthy, so the theoretical TTK of the combo would be much longer.

[offtopic]I would like to see a change in the carbine somehow. Maybe speed up fire rate a tad so its TTK would suck less. I dunno, seems like the carbine's getting the weapon-balance shaft.[/offtopic]

[Nightmare]

@ ventex's ontopic "offtopic" thing.

Carbine needs some kind of change for the new release :(
even if its a very slight fire rate/power change. It'll get lonely if no changes happen, and we need happy weapons.

I agree with you, as seen above :)

[pufig]

i want total devastator grenade explosive launcher for new type grenades rocket,with triple fire grenades gettin and can launch in enemy(with earthquake sound! y! gg)

[Nightmare]

^go play unreal tournament? =p

[Cemer]

^go play unreal tournament? =p

*Shits brick in laughter*

[ursopufe]

Mens congratulaions for more version, and i Liked the bomb version 1.0, the bomb killed 3, 4 people i liked this :) but its good version and i love AC

cya guys!