Lucid Dreams

[Darkbee]

If only we could learn to focus our dreams and have almost complete control over them... that would be like the ultimate computer game. Maybe I should learn to program in my dreams. :)

[makkE]

That's what this thread is about, darkbee. It's called lucid dreaming, and it can be learned. :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream

[Darkbee]

Recognizing that one is dreaming and being able to manipulate some simple characteristics of that dream, is a long way from being about to completely define the parameters of that dream at will.

I'm familiar with lucid dreams because I've had them, and typically I can force certain characteristics of the dream, possibily direct or indirect actions but usually I cannot control them entirely at will.

Perhaps what you're suggesting is that with practice I could be able to completely define the virtual universe of my dream, down to the last detail? I can't even play Assault Cube effectively, what makes you think I can master my dreams? ;)

[V-Man]

Lrn2CubeScript and methods of defining your universe will make more sense.

@MakkE:
I love it when threads come full circle! :D

[makkE]

Perhaps what you're suggesting is that with practice I could be able to completely define the virtual universe of my dream, down to the last detail? I can't even play Assault Cube effectively, what makes you think I can master my dreams? ;)

That's what they say is possible, yes. It's what I hope to learn one day too. You might have trouble mastering AC, but that is because it forces it's own rules upon you. It is said to be possible to make your very own rules in lucid dreams :P

[Mr.Floppy]

I experienced that indeed you can make 'real decisions' from time to time, while understanding somehow that you're sleeping at that moment or remember scenarios/situations you've been already in real life or another dream. Though, I'd say the consequences taking place after doing/creating something, again fall back to subconsciousness processes, at least in my case.

And as far as I understand the workings of the human brain I doubt it was possible to build up a complex world and all ongoings like that (in real time, so to speak).

For example, there's only a minor amount of incoming "data" processed by the human brain. The very most of it will be filtered not ever making it to become part of our conscious reality. It's like you're watching at a sky scraper for about ten seconds so you've viewed any bit of the visible side of that building. Now tell how much windows are there.

This is impossible for a "normal" human and if this wasn't the case, humanity wouldn't have made it this far. Imagine how you would hunt for some animal while you truly realise any single leave on any single tree. You couldn't focus on anything anymore. There's a few people on earth which are blessed/cursed by not having such a filter. They could tell the amount of windows, but they can't deal with a "regular" life.

This makes me doubt someone can generate more data than he's able to receive at a time.

BTW:

As far as I know, everybody has a period in his life when this filter is adjusted, while the brain is 're-organised' completely, which takes part along puberty.

Now you can blame this temporary "data-overkill" for beeing such a "difficult kid" at this time. ;)

[makkE]

That filter is not affected in puberty afaik. What happens in late adolescense is the frontal lobes developing (the last stage in brain development). The frontal lobe is the place where self-reflection and ethic/moral stuff happens. That's why it's usually a troublesome time.

That filter can be temporarily weakened or completely turned off, wich can be quite a pleasant experience ;)

Imho, the brain is capable of generating a lot of data, and doesn't need much input for it (at least not immediate input).. In lucid dreams, things can become very real and detailed, eben more detailed than in awake state, where the brain drwas from life experience and memory.

[CoxA*]

After practicing for a while, each day when i woke up i remember some dreams. Is that a beginning to Lucid Dreaming ? hahaha

[Syntax]

A bit off topic (but sorta on topic), I've had a few experiences with out of body experiences and astral projections, as well as the lovely numbness called sleep paralysis.

One of my clearest, early memories of having SP was on an overcast September morning, around 5:45 AM. I woke up from a completely ordinary dream, and felt a weak tingling sensation throughout my body. My eyes were half-closed, half-opened. I tried to move and roll over, but I could not--there was some sort of weight on top of me.

And then I heard something open my door (I was facing the opposite direction). There were a few footsteps towards my bed, and I literally felt something--or someone, climb on top of my bed, and I heard my bed and mattress move.

I started becoming slightly frightened, and it seemed that the longer it went on, it got worse. Then, I felt something--it's hand--on my shoulders and ribs. I could feel with every minute detail about the hand--bony, long, very long fingers, on my side.

Bear in mind that I could not see him (I was pretty sure that whatever this apparition in my hallucination was, it was male, or had masculine qualities), but I could practically feel what he looked like--he wore a hood and a robe--sort of like a stereotypical Grim Reaper.

I could not move at all, but I noticed that I could wiggle my tongue. I wiggled it some more, and soon I could move my entire jaw, and then I could move my shoulders--and I woke up. I turned around and thought about what just happened, and then I got up and turned on the lights, and I felt the hairs on my head standing up. I was quite scared after the event--no idea why, but I had sensed some evil presence. However, I did know that it was my own imagination and my own brain just doing work during the night.

After that, sleep paralysis seemed to become more common, likely associated with my general lack of sleep. However, I did not have hallucinations like that, and I quickly got out of them by moving my tongue or wiggling my toes. And that strange, ominous sense of fear dissipated too, until a couple of even wilder experiences happened to me--namely things on the verge of being an astral projection and an out of body experience. But that is another story that can be saved for later.

[Darkbee]

I don't know whether the human brain is up to the task of rendering an imagined universe in it's entirety, but if you assume what you see around you when you are awake is entirely unreal (a waking dream if you will), then the brain does a pretty good job. This also causing me to consider how the brain processes dreams, and observe that it performs things such as the rendering of lighting very admirably (at least in my dreams) without any (presumably) data input from the eyes, which are typically closed. So not only does the brain have to process the data, it has to generate it too!

One plus side for the human brain and rendering virtual worlds is that you only have to render what is technically perceivable in the immediate environment. It's almost like comparing how 3D worlds are rendered in computer games. So if you're in a building with no windows, you don't have to render what is outside of the building. If there is a window, and a tree outside then you have to render that outside scene, but you don't have to render the tree, four blocks away that you can't see.

One thing that the brain does better than any computer currently can is perform approximate calculations, extremely rapidly. Take the physics calculations needed to catch a ball for example and recognize that a computer could probably calculate those precisely to rediculous floating point precision, but that is completely unecessary. Simple, approximate calculations are all that are needed to be able to catch the ball. Sometimes we get it wrong (and drop the ball), most times we don't.

I personally can observe this approximation in action, in my dreams. Often, objects will be hazy, an approximation of what they should be, unless I being to look at them in detail in which case they will become much clearer. When/if my brain gets better at approximation then objects in general become clearer (and more often than not I will catch the ball as opposed to dropping it). Approximation is useful.

Another thing in the human brain's favor is that it is organic. It's been a while since I've read up on it but I'm under the impression that organic computers (biocomputers) are significant order-of-magnitude faster than conventional electronic microprocessor computers.

I'm not suggesting that the human brain is superior to computers (for certain things), but perhaps we underestimate the enormity of the complexity and capability of these organic computers we have in our heads. We understand comparitively zero about the human brain.

Fascinating topic. :)

[V-Man]

This wiki's for you.
And this one.
I experience hypnagogic hallucinations a lot, mostly when I've had a stressful day. Usually it is much like you described, hearing footsteps and breathing. Your case is interesting in that you could break out of it -- I never can, and I've learned that fear is a rather useless tool when you can't act on the motivation it brings; so I've stopped feeling fear during those times.

[CoxA*]

Finally ! I had one "Lucid Dream" today, it was not fantastic, but it was quite an experience :D

[Syntax]

Just today, I entered that state again. This time, I felt the usual electrical, tingling paralysis, but I also tried 'shifting' a bit. And voila! I literally rolled out of my body.

It was a very strange sensation. It felt exactly how you would imagine it. I also felt my "second" body sink under the bed a little bit. It leads me to believe that I can probably phase through walls.

I could feel myself detach from my physical body--but it felt as if, in that state, I was already detached--or loosened. I just needed to move out of my body, that was all. And I did.

I didn't go any further because I became too self-concious, and I felt myself being put back inside my own body--a lot like a glove. It just fits nicely.

This isn't exactly the first time, but it's the furthest I've gone outside of my body. I'm going to start experimenting with this more, whenever I get it.

It's interesting to note that there seem to be two states--the first one is completely awake--I can physically move around, stand up, turn around, talk, etc. However, there is this strange, dreamy feeling, and I am always aware of my own breathing.

What I mean by that is like...Your body breathes automatically (better word, unconsciously), right? But whenever you try and take notice of it you consciously 'take' control of it. What happens is that I can notice myself breathing automatically, and I don't control it all. It's very strange to just lie there and see your body do everything automatically. It's as if I had become an observer of my body who is inside--I'm not actually part of my body.

In that state, I can think fairly clearly--but there's still some 'morning fog'.

If I close my eyes, or half close them for more than 10 seconds, and just relax--I seem to enter the next level.

There comes a sudden whoosh and a weight, and I'm paralyzed. I can literally feel a tingling sensation running from my toes to my head--all across my body. It is during this stage that my body seems to enter 'panic mode'--my heart races, my breathing becomes deeper and faster. I literally feel as if that my body has become a glove--and that I'm actually just inside it, and experiencing react to this ordeal. There is panic across the body, and even in the 'brain'. I am scared--but not scared at the same time?

Then, I easily just move right out of my body. Simple as that. However, I still feel like I'm attached to it to some degree--I can still partially feel myself on the bedsheets, and feel the heartbeats on my chest, and the tingling sensation.

But I'm not actually there.

And I could feel the 'energies' of materials. When I rolled out of my body, I sank under the bed a little bit. I could feel a dark sort of energy (energy is the only word i can use to describe it) inside my bed. It wasn't evil. It was just...black.

Anyway, I'll keep trying to do this whenever it happens, and hopefully my body will become familiar with it, so I can detach with clear vision, focus, and full lucidity.

[titiPT]

This is serious:
Today i dreamed that i was playing AC, urban ctf. Then i saw that a guy scored too quickly, therefore a hacker. I screamed HACK HACK HACK and started a vote to ban him.
But he F2ed the vote, dunno how, and started chaging my nickname and making my screen full with messages in red light.
BULL3T was there, and he claimed admin and tried to ban him. Of course, this super hacker can't be banned.
Then it was depot ctf, in the same game (weird, uh?), and i ended up leaving, frustrated.

You gotta love dreams.

[Robtics]

I had a lucid dream tonight :)

[Gibstick]

This is serious:
Today i dreamed that i was playing AC, urban ctf. Then i saw that a guy scored too quickly, therefore a hacker. I screamed HACK HACK HACK and started a vote to ban him.
But he F2ed the vote, dunno how, and started chaging my nickname and making my screen full with messages in red light.
BULL3T was there, and he claimed admin and tried to ban him. Of course, this super hacker can't be banned.
Then it was depot ctf, in the same game (weird, uh?), and i ended up leaving, frustrated.

You gotta love dreams.

Too much ac.
Last time I had a lucid dream I woke up with sleep paralysis.

[titiPT]

I haven't played AC in a week ;)

---

Too little AC perhaps.

[mogthor]

Been here, done this...Seems like I'm always a step ahead of everyone. I don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing. :S Anyway, I've had a few, and am trying to get back into it.

[Foo]

I prefer LSD to attempting to lucid dream...

[makkE]

Foo: Both is awesome ;) And you can't really compare the two.

Anyhow, a couple of days ago, I had my first prolonged state of lucidity. It was just plain awesome.

First, the dream was one of those normal weird dreams. At one point, I found myself going down a highway, riding a wheelchair. It was a quite steep decline, and I was getting scared. But then just thought "there are only a few cars, so let's just see what happens, could be fun after all." - This was more of a subconcious realization that I could take action. So I overcame my fear and just kept rolling.
As I went faster and faster, I came to realize that flying might be an easier way to go about it. At that point, I realized it was a dream, and the rest was easy. I lifted up in the air and flew. Superman style. Left the highway and flew through the city.

For some reason, I couldn't fly really high, so I conciously decided to try another way of flying. I sort of stood up in the air and started using some imaginary pedals with my hands. I could then pedal less or more to get the desired height, and the speed got even higher :)

Then the lucidity slipped a little, and the dream went it's usual weird ways, though I could decide now and then to have a closer look at certain things. The last sequence was me talking to a person I knew pretty well in my past, and it had a very high level of realism to it. I could even sense her body warmth and her scent. I could think about what to answer or talk about just as if I was awake.

When I woke up, I was both scared and fascinated, took me a while to fall asleep again.
This was so far the most lucid thing I have dreamt. The feeling of being able to control my flight was totally awesome :)

I hope it will happen to me again. It seems like I am getting the hang of it, since it seems I am getting used to the lucidity, so I won't wake up immediately after I realize I am lucid.

[#M|A#Wolf]

I must agree, flying dreams are the best dreams there are. The feeling your body senses, is something that can't be explained but you can simply remember that it felt like nothing ever felt before and that it was amazing. Kind of like an orgasm, but without the rush of hormones :D

[Zen]

A whole mess of Lucid Dreaming info.

I've had 3 experiences with lucid dreaming that were so vivid, I remember every detail to this day. My 2nd one was interesting because I used telekinesis in the dream, and it almost felt like I could sense where the power was coming from. For hours after I woke up, I could swear I could "feel" everything around me.

I must agree, flying dreams are the best dreams there are.

I must agree as well. There's a sense of both power and freedom. 2 of my remembered lucid dreams, and many, many regular dreams involved flying.

OT: Sorry for digging a somewhat old thread up. Wanted to share another source of information.

[V-Man]

If ya had to dig up an old thread, this was the right one. ^_^

I was reminded of a lucid dream I had over ten years ago. I decided I could go through walls, so I did. It felt like nothing real life could compare to...

[Lantry]

not exactly lucid dreaming, but i found another really cool thing where you deprive your brain of input, and it starts making things up.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/...our_brain/
(the part i'm talking about is the ganzfield procedure, near the top left)

I haven't tried it yet, but i really want to.
and yeah, good dig.

[Frogulis]

Lol Lantry...
SUPPOSEDLY! (emphasis)
you shouldn't do that unless carefully monitored by a psychological professional. But I would get advice from someone slightly more wise than me.

[makkE]

Lantry: Frogulus is right, caution is advised.
In the wrong circumstances, experiments like these may trigger lingering psychological issues.
So unless you know you are not in danger (having a family history of latent psychosis), you should be very careful with stuff that goes into the direction of inducing halucinations via sensical deprivement.

Back on topic:
I am really making progress with lucidity. Though it's still seldom to be very lucid, I realize more often that I am in fact dreaming, and I am able to make small decisions and adjustments :). I remember more dreams too. My nocturnal landscape has definately become a lot richer. It's fun.

[Hellspell]

how do you know you are not dreaming that you have control of your dreams?

[makkE]

That's one of the more trickier parts. It happens, but you can tell from the clarity of the scene. Usually all your senses become very sharp when you are in full control. You can also make another reality check, or do something really weird that you make up on the spot, something that is not in the vein of the dream's theme at all.

Example: Bad dream, you are being chased by bad guys. Of cours you make certain descisions all the time, like where to run, or where to hide. And you could start thinking you are controlling it, but that thought might be only dreamt, not really your own. So, you could try something really silly for example to turn around and throw a cake at them. If you are really lucid now, you will do that, and it has the pleasant effect of ending the bad dream too!

[V-Man]

Also it makes the nades bounce less like in .93 and more like in 1.1
(two nights ago)

[Lightning]

I had a strange dream. I was acutally half asleep, as in I could still move my arms and stuff and I was aware that I was dreaming (yet awake) and I sprayed a cologne. Funny thing is, I could actually smell that cologne even though I don't have that cologne anywhere in my whole house. Strange.