AC 1.1 OR AC 1.0.4

[P@ndel]

Okay, i see many people are talking about this, so i decided to go ahead and make a thread about the following issues.

Ever since AC 1.1 came out, more and more people are slowly passing on playing AC 1.1. I hear from many well-known members of AC community that they do not like the new AC, however they are forced to play it because masterserver will, according to many people i talk to, no longer support AC 1.0.4 in the near future, forcing everyone to play the new AC 1.1. Now, i am also not a huge fan of 1.1, and i consider this as a new "edition" of AssaultCube gameplay rather than just an upgrade to a "better/newer" version from 1.0.4 to 1.1. The differences between the two versions are considerable, making room for argues that total transfer from 1.0.4 to 1.1 would be unfair, if not absurd unfair, because a great majority of people still prefer to play the good old version. In the light of what has been said, i think that, IF there is a plan to reconfigure the masterserver such that it will only support 1.1 in the future, it would be just to let the community decide whether to make a complete shift to 1.1, or leave 1.0.4 along with the new 1.1.

Thank you for your attention!

P@ndel

[#M|A#Wolf]

Is this a question? I think your post would fit well in ac-news hehe.

[Gibstick]

Have fun, good luck!

[Drakas]

I (and some prominent players) do not recall ever being asked whether any of the changes that were proposed and finalised are at all a good idea, or at least how significant they should be. Especially the armours, the changes in weapons, and anything major that has not been really changed so drastically, say, from .93 to 1.0, as an example.

I'm with P@ndel on this. 1.1 is a new game, it's not the same old AC with that feeling, that some of us been playing since 2006. 1.1 clearly has different motivations in mind and not all of us are with them. Some of us just want to keep playing our game, not being forced to abide by others' motivations.

Of course, there are also people that prefer 1.1 much more than 1.0. As a result, the HI-SKILL ladder does and will continue to support both 1.0 and 1.1 at the same time because I believe in freedom of choice of what to play. Keep everyone happy. :)

[Gibstick]

I think someone is a little sad about the lack of GEMAs. Then one could argue innocent maps have to be tweaked (a lot sometimes, apollo would know) in order to be playable. Then I argue that people just need to stop whining and move on. Then I remember the old saying, "If it ain't broke don't fix it!". The next issue of armour is trivial, just remember to pick it up. To counter this I would argue "people die too slow and it's like the quad damage in 1vs1". Then I argue....

[Brahma]

P@ndel... The 1.0.4 have a lot of issues, which forced us to produce more unwanted changes in the 1.1:

1) Legion of cheaters
2) Nade spammers (guys that think grenade is a primary weapon)
3) Ratio whores (guys that hide and run for life packs, and never help the team)
4) Unfair weapon balance (basically there are only two primary: SMG and SNIPER)
5) LSS bugs (nades between rounds)
6) Weird lag maps (HeadShot City, TwinTowers...)
7) Vote abuse (kick without reason)
8) Chat/voice spam
9) Sendmap/Getmap issues
10) Legion of cheaters

If you are not a cheater, or if you do not love to play in weird maps, or you are missing the weapon unbalance... well, you will obviously prefer the 1.0...

But the 1.1 is far better:
1) One extra weapon
2) More value given to tactics (stronger armor, less nade spamming...)
3) More weapon balance (it is not perfect yet, but it is far better than 1.0)
4) Extra voice coms
5) Defenders and covers are being rewarded now
6) Less bugs
7) Less weird maps
8) Less lag
9) Less cheaters

You must know people complained too, when AC moved from 0.9 to 1.0... well... it is not different now, and it will not be different when we move from 1.1 to 1.2...

I know the change is not easy.. but after some weeks of game you will realize how 1.1 is better.
(And do not trust on those "good players" who say the opposite...)

[Zarjio]

There has been change. People hate change. Give it time, and people will be used to the change.
A few months ago people would reminisce over how great 0.93 was, and how badly they missed it. In a few more months people will reminisce over how great 1.04 was, and how much they miss it. And then 1.1 will get replaced, and people will reminisce over how much they miss 1.1...
The long and short of it is that AC is going to continue to change. As long as there are devs who are willing to work long, hard, and practically thankless hours to improve this game, the game will continue to change. Don't expect it to ever stop. Adapt or quit (or else go to all the trouble of trying to start your own masterserver, and an alternative AC community, which will sort of be this group of underground players which slowly dwindles in rank until you become obscure as the original Cube).

[Alpha-Jet]

+ 1000000000000 brahma !

The only problem with the 1.1 is the lack of server.

[Drakas]

... and so we couldn't have had that first list fixed without changing the game-play so drastically according to the vision of somebody who hasn't even participated in a single competition (since you're talking about tactics and strategy)? And more-over, will we be forced to go by that vision?

[Brahma]

No change in the game play was my decision, Drakas... so, go back to your room before you say shit.

The changes in the game play happened from 0.9 to 1.0, and the developers were still not happy with the 1.0 "sacred" gameplay/weapon balance... so, they did small changes, which appear big thing to someone addicted to the game.

[Mael]

I (and some prominent players) do not recall ever being asked whether any of the changes that were proposed and finalised are at all a good idea, or at least how significant they should be. Especially the armours, the changes in weapons, and anything major that has not been really changed so drastically, say, from .93 to 1.0, as an example.

The devs have no obligation to ask for our opinions. The game is first and foremost theirs, ours secondary.

The changes to armor turned it into the pickup it was supposed to be from the start. Had armor always existed this way you wouldn't be arguing that the devs ask your opinion. No one would argue that this is a game-killing feature, we would have just come to love a different kind of AC. If then, the armor was altered to its 1.04 state there would be players crying foul over the devs "killing" the pickup. I don't believe the disdain over these alterations is related to their impact on the gameplay, but to the notions of how the game should be, held by long-time players.

Frankly, I think the suggestion to leave 1.04, unedited, available for play online is ridiculous. Cry about the current bugs of 1.1 if you like, but these [mainly]minor annoyances pale in comparison to the faults of 1.04.

[Habluka]

I know that no one really cares about my opinion on Brahma's reasons as to why 1.1 is better, but I feel like voicing it any way.

1.0 stuff

1) Legion of cheaters
2) Nade spammers (guys that think grenade is a primary weapon)

I feel like these issues actually have been dealt with very well in the update and these are in my opinion the best aspects of it.

3) Ratio whores (guys that hide and run for life packs, and never help the team)

I feel like this is still a problem because even though it does not specifically give a ratio, it still lists the number of deaths, which will only make people work towards getting more kills than deaths, which was the main problem with ratio whores in 1.0. The way to stop this would be to have a menu similar to that of Sauerbraten that does not even show the number of deaths and maybe have a small message come up at the end for each individual player that shows their own statistics and no one else's.

5) LSS bugs (nades between rounds)
6) Weird lag maps (HeadShot City, TwinTowers...)
7) Vote abuse (kick without reason)
8) Chat/voice spam
9) Sendmap/Getmap issues
10) Legion of cheaters

These are all things that I am glad will not be a problem any more because they were incredibly annoying. Thanks for fixing them.

1.1 stuff

1) One extra weapon

this isn't a very large change in my opinion as it really doesn't make it any more or less enjoyable for me

2) More value given to tactics (stronger armor, less nade spamming...)

In my opinion, stronger armor is actually taking a step away from requiring actual tactics. This is because I have played games where I camped and got full armor at the very beginning and just walked into the enemy base, without really paying attention to them or really even trying to kill them, and was able to take the flag without getting really badly damaged when there were 3 people guarding the flag with a shotgun and 2 smgs. This really reminds me of a game I used to play with my friends on my PS2 back when I was 12 where you could essentially stay alive forever by camping next to a fairly weak destructible object that over time would cause you to regain health over time. In my opinion, becoming a tank by hiding from the enemy team for maybe 30 seconds is not something that should be viewed with high regard as good tactics.

3) More weapon balance (it is not perfect yet, but it is far better than 1.0)

I actually consider 1.0.4 one of the most balanced first person shooters I've ever played for the most part because if you're good with a weapon, you can play well no matter which one it is. The only change to this in 1.1 that I consider good is what was done with the Assault Rifle, but other than this, the changes really only seem to have weakened weapons that really were not too strong to begin with. My main problem is with the sniper. Even though I almost never use this weapon, I still think that it should always be able to kill with 2 non-headshots no matter how much armor a person has in the same clip. What this does is it causes snipers to only be able to maybe get a single kill before they are left out in the open with no way of defending themselves while reloading. I know that this is good for players that don't use the sniper as it gets us extra kills, but it somehow does not seem very fair.

4) Extra voice coms

I don't really know what to say about these as I always mute them and never use them.

6) Less bugs
7) Less weird maps

Thank you very much for this as I don't like bugs or crap maps, but there are some actually good maps that do not meet the requirements that I do enjoy playing on (nothing like headshotcity. I only enjoy maps of high quality).

8) Less lag

This update really doesn't help with lag at all imo. The pings are still the same, but saying that you added things in that make it better for people with high pings does not make it acceptable to me to play with people that are getting pings of 300-500. Just because it looks smoother doesn't mean that they can't get incredibly annoying lag kills.

9) Less cheaters

Thank you for the anti-cheat. I feel that this was desperately needed for a long time. My only problem is that it tends to ban people who are not cheating, but I assume that this will be fixed in the next updates to 1.1

This ended up being longer than I wanted, but I don't feel like going back and shortening it. I am still going to play 1.0.4 while I can, not because I like cheaters or "weapon imbalance," but because I am currently used to it and I like how minimalistic it is compared to 1.1 and I will play 1.1 when I'm no longer able to play 1.0.4 on the masterserver. I'm not saying that I don't appreciate your work on this game because I really appreciate how much effort and passion is put into this game, but that doesn't mean I agree with every change. Please don't hate me for not liking all of the changes.

[Drakas]

I give up :'D...

[DaRealRocky]

1.1 is good... change or dont play ;)

[Ua51]

=) 1.0.4 was good .. but after playin a week 1.1 i acclimatued the new AC
but i still hate the shotti :P ^^

[JMM]

I feel 1.1 is really awkward at times. I know, you said "less lag" but I keep constantly getting these unable to shoot, hits apparently not registered, weird warps and other annoyances at slightest lag spikes. It's a nice game but it doesn't feel quite as smooth and fluid as 1.04...

Oh and I've already expressed my opinion regarding the mapping limits (ceiling heights, open areas yaddaty daddaty), but I'll say it again, IMO it's more of a hindrance than a solid solution for getting rid of shit maps.

And I do feel the armour is a bit too strong, especially combined with the helmets. Easy to acquire + more effective = a little too much. Also, I think the sniper (and possibly to a lesser extent the carbine) should be "armour piercing" (the armour simply shouldn't protect from these as much)... I just feel that these weapons are too weak against armoured players. Maybe it's just me not being used to 1.1 yet, but that's my opinion at the moment.

[jamz]

I played 2 hours of 1.1 tonight. I played OK, for a new game. I did well in some games, not so well in others. It was hard work.
I was going to go to bed, and saw this thread, so decided to play some 1.0.4. I played OK, considering I'd just been playing 1.1. I did well in some games, not so well in others. I had a lot of fun.
I'm going to bed now, happy that 1.1 is an improvement over 1.0.4 in many ways, but sad that it's not in one important way. It's lost something intangible. Right now I'm playing because I feel I have to, for all the time I've put into AC, not because I really want to.

[Undead]

so much armour

ima get that 0.93 ratio mod and ratio whore like i always used to. without nades

[#M|A#Wolf]

Armor is too powerful, tbh :/

[Gibstick]

Shutup and put your money where your mouth is :D Maybe 1.1 has lost some cheaters, eh jamz?

[DrauL]

Armour is a pain in the ass, but thats when you pull out a shotty.

[ElCrema]

Well, just today I played a few fun matches with some very skilled players and managed to play in a decent level using ALL weapons (anyone ever played a match with AR in 1.04, anyone?). Just that change alone, to me, makes 1.1 very much welcome, plus the no cheaters situation, sorry but its a no-brainer!
As for armor: ffs, they are there for the taker. First come, first served, so move you lazy whining arse and go pick some armor, caus guess what? Its gonna be harder for your opponent to kill ya too!

[Chill]

Ive played on both and both have their pro's and con's. I prefer 1.0.4 because personally i like to use the sniper, and in 1.1 the spread without scoping has increased quite a bit...and it seems like the sensitivity reacts differently than in 1.0. i play in 1.0 with 4 sensitivity and have to play with around 5.5 in 1.1 and still it does not feel the same. I _love_ the anticheats and i personally like the armour and the AR is alot better. I cant use the SMG in 1.1 though idk if it actually is weaker but it is, in my opinion, harder to control.
I agree that change was needed but not in certain areas. Because the shotgun has the gib ability i find many more shotgunners around. Just my opinions on it.
Thanks Devs

[DrauL]

The spread hasnt increased on the sniper since 0.93.

[P@ndel]

Thank you, Brahma, for taking time to respond to this topic.

Regarding the issues that you have listed about 1.0.4 i should say that every single problem you have mentioned can be fixed with all the new improvements you have brought to AC 1.1 without changing the gameplay:
- You can implement the anti-cheater code you put in 1.1
- You can put the same one-nade limit
- You can, as suggested, remove the ratio/death/kill stats and show them at the end of the game
- I think that the only imbalance in 1.0.4 is when you turn around a corner and a n00b smacks you with his shotgun and drains all your 100 HP/100 Armour with a single shot. Also, maybe, sniper+pistol is a bit too powerful, but if your SMG is good, you should get a kill even against a pro. Some changes regarding this issues could have been proposed without changing the game play at all (now shotgun has gib ability? O.o )
- All other issues seem minor to me, and can be fixed the way you fixed them in 1.1

For me, even addition of one new weapon to a game which already has only 4 primary weapons, is a complete revolution, because 1 new weapon = new gameplay, new strategy, new tactics. I still think that all the changes you brought with 1.1 could well be implemented in 1.0.4 retaining the 1.0.4 gameplay, or at least avoiding big gameplay changes.

And just a little something for the developers. Please don't get offended by this, but you make this game so that people like us can play it. I know you can change the game the way you find fit, it IS your 'baby', but don't you think that maybe you could ask for people's opinion about certain game related issues? After all, i don't think that you put all your time into developing this game solely to play just among yourselves with the developers, but for hundreds of people like us who enjoy the product of your hard work.

And, i would like to repeat my question, will the 1.0.4 be removed from the masterserver? If yes, when to expect that?

And a final note, i still find 1.0.4 is easier for its gameplay and smoothness. I think that all the new changes in 1.1 could have directly be implemented in the 1.0.4 without any change of gameplay (like weapon addition, weapon damage, additional armor etc.)

Thanks for reading!

P@ndel

[XFA]

im still waiting for .94

[noerrorsfound]

I think that all the new changes in 1.1 could have directly be implemented in the 1.0.4 without any change of gameplay (like weapon addition, weapon damage, additional armor etc.)

All of those things are changes to gameplay.

[P@ndel]

I think that all the new changes in 1.1 could have directly be implemented in the 1.0.4 without any change of gameplay (like weapon addition, weapon damage, additional armor etc.)

All of those things are changes to gameplay.

Please have some insight when reading, and not hold on meanings of plain words: i am talking about features like anti-cheat, reduced amount of bugs etc.

...

P@ndel

[DrauL]

Please have some insight when reading, and not hold on meanings of plain words: i am talking about features like anti-cheat, reduced amount of bugs etc.

...

P@ndel

So you want to be able to cheat?

[P@ndel]

Please have some insight when reading, and not hold on meanings of plain words: i am talking about features like anti-cheat, reduced amount of bugs etc.

...

P@ndel

So you want to be able to cheat?

Draul, why didn't you tell me you are THE Forest Gump? x)

P@ndel