Introduction // recent opinions...

[tipper|DES|]

You don’t half wind up easy Benson XD

[tempest]

Now if I had banned you or kicked you from the server, which if I recall the server, I had the power to do then you may have a point in posting. But, I didn’t

Oh, really? So you weren't certain enough to ban him from the server, yet you were sufficiently certain to call him a cheater in public. Yeah, makes sense.

Now maybe you think your position as an older player allows you to just shrug off any accusations, like you did above. Newsflash: it doesn't.

[tipper|DES|]

Oh arr Tempest ;) I can expect you round to administer a spanking then tempest XD


(muppet)

[Benson]

I'd like to hear a serious statement from tipper regarding tempest's conclusion.

[ElCrema]

Omg

The guy thinks the other guys cheats and decided to voice his opinion, so what? Is just his damn opinion and afaik he is entitled to have one. I suspect that A LOT of player cheat too, can I prove it? No, can I say I think they cheat? HELL YES! By doing this thou, one might look like a paranoid dude.

Other VERY funny thing is that you don't see any of the dudes that call themselves AC pro's playing games with effective anti-cheat and being pros and making money there, if you so damn good go make money playing fps somewhere else caus, trust me it ain't gonna happen here! Ohh wait, Wolf tried and got banned from Counter Strike for cheating. It says something, doesn't it?

If you ask me I rather be a paranoid dude like tipper than a damn fool that go around praising and trying to be buddies with cheating scum!

[Mael]

Benson there isn't anything we can really do for you and it sounds like it's an issue between you and tipper. If you'd like to resolve an issue you can PM him. The discussion here is degrading a bit and didn't really belong here.

[Brahma]

please... do not close the thread... this is a hard issue, that torture our game since its origin... it goes beyond personal or clan issues...

[Bukz]

But these kind of discussions do not belong on these forums. They are merely personal opinions that belong elsewhere.

[Brahma]

I am not sure.
There are some important statments here, that should be thought and re-thought.

1 - accusing other players for subtle cheats only steals the fun and brings confusion regarding the obvious scum

2 - is the anticheats unuseful? if so, just remove it... otherwise, code your own. Imho the automatic checks are 100 times more confident than the noob opinion...

3 - we are facing serious moral times, when respected players defend their "right" to publicity accuse other people.

[tipper|DES|]

This was a conversation I had with Benson brought about by two other players who said they thought he was cheating.
It happens all the time on the servers.
It should have stayed on that server and stayed between Benson and myself.
Benson chose to draw attention to this issue, something I cant thank him enough for and as has always been the way, individual server owners will make up their own minds and act accordingly, or probably as the past has shown, do nothing.

@Brahma
I believe we have discussed this many times in the past. My opinion has always been it is not the obvious cheats that are the problem it’s the subtle cheats that are almost impossible to prove that damage the game.

However, not being able to prove (whatever that may entail and as yet there has been no absolute proof, just opinion based on the interpretation of data) doesn’t mean that players aren’t cheating.
Even when you have provided data, it has been consensuses of experienced players you have shown that data too that have either agreed or not that have determined the outcome.
I mention this both with regard to the clutch of oNe players “proven” to be cheats by your methods and my reported “aff, oNe players” comment.

What you are suggesting is let the more discrete cheats play on regardless because you can’t prove they cheat. Isn’t that rather like sticking your head in the sand?

I think Andre has the best approach to this, just dismiss me as some crazy old git with nothing better to do than accuse players of cheating and carry on with your heads up your asses.

Oh arr, interesting though don’t you think, that another player I have publicly accused of cheating SRBWolf was banned from another game for cheating. Maybe I’m not so crazy after all.

[Wolf]

Other VERY funny thing is that you don't see any of the dudes that call themselves AC pro's playing games with effective anti-cheat and being pros and making money there, if you so damn good go make money playing fps somewhere else caus, trust me it ain't gonna happen here! Ohh wait, Wolf tried and got banned from Counter Strike for cheating. It says something, doesn't it?

Ok, I saw this thread, and I didn't want to post anything untill I saw Crema's post. I feel the need to post, because someone will actually believe you that I am banned from Counter Strike.
First of all, you probably think this because you saw what I posted on oNe's shoutbox a while ago, but you changed the fact "a little". I wanted to tell the guys that Brahma isn't the only guy that made the bad decision about me cheating and stated that serbian admins on one of the best Counter Strike Source(another mistake by you) server banned me for aimbot. I am not banned from Counter Strike as you say, because I never cheated in any game, and therefore cannot by banned by VAC(CS's anticheat). I may became "too good" for serbian CSS players in about 10 days, but that's just because the community is so small(around 200 players) compared to CS community and because I played CS for about 4-5 years but not so actively. Believe me, I am still noob at CSS compared to really good players that play the game for more than 5 years or so.
This is the ban on the server - http://www.games.rs/sb/index.php?p=banli...mid&Submit Here is my Steam profile - http://steamcommunity.com/id/wolfsrb/, and as you can see I dont have bans on any game I own. Please, don't go stating things like this in the future, because the words of a well known player like you could have big impact, and I already went through horror in AC once.
As for tipper calling me cheat and stuff, I dont really care anymore. I got banned when I was at top of my game in AC, so getting banned again will not harm me much. I don't want to start any flamewar here, but i just want to state one thing that I couldn't before, because I was banned from the AC forums and AC irc. I never cheated in AC or any other game, and you all can have opinions whether I cheat or not, but only I can know for sure if I cheat or not. One LAN game of AssaultCube would show who is really good, and who is not, but I guess that is never going to happen.
I am sorry if this is too much off topic, and fell free to delete it if you need, but I posted this just because of Crema's post about me being banned from Counter Strike.

[Brahma]

Tipper, there is only one point we agree: This game is full of cheaters.

If this game is easy to hack/cheat it, we should work on ways to make it less easy.
If it is not possible, there is no reason to keep the development (but this is not my opinion, since I believe it is possible to reduce the cheating).

Anyway I insist, that accusing people in the pubs only make it more miserable. No matter if you are right or not.
You are in a comfortable position, since you have your clan/friends to support your misbehavior. Your opinion about who is cheating or not, it is just your opinion. Keep it to yourself.
If you do not have concrete evidences, go and blacklist the cheater... but afaik, you do not believe in concrete evidence (you just believe your feelings, right?). I do not want to be sexist, but "trust in feelings" is for girls. :P

[Brahma]

@ Wolf

I believe in you, wolf. ;)

[tipper|DES|]

Woah Brahma, did I just read that right? O_O
How does one put this politely……….

Oh nvm, I think you can guess, it involves a closed fist with one finger sticking up XD

I’m all hurt now you’ve called me a girlie and I’ll have to go away and cry for a while :(

Brahma, you should know by now I don’t give a toss what you think or write or say or do for that matter with regard to this game.
I gave up all hope for radical change here when you let all the scum you spent so long exposing back in the game (see above). You were either right or wrong Brahma, a 50/50 shot just like my opinion it seems. Course, we could debate endlessly which is preferable, a girlie armed with some statistics or a girly armed with “feeling”. Personally speaking if I wanted to get it right I would pick the girl with feelings but I’ve never liked doing things by numbers.
Other than that you’re a nice guy who I would want to meet in different circumstances.

[Zarjio]

Course, we could debate endlessly which is preferable, a girlie armed with some statistics or a girly armed with “feeling”.

Um...
Did you forget that statistics are a science?
There is a big difference between saying "I feel this is true" and "Statistically, I can say with 85% confidence that this is true".

One of my profs at uni is a stats genius of sorts, and worked on contracts for the military. They were able to take high-altitude satellite feeds which were searching for boats on the ocean and showed nothing but static fuzz, and using statistical methods, determine the exact location of said boats. If you watched the video you wouldn't have a clue what you were looking at, but they were able to absolutely determine what the picture was from a bunch of fuzz.

So don't tell me that statistics and feelings are equally useless. I don't know a whole lot about Brahma's anti-cheat. I can't say to you that it is perfect, although I am happy with the greatly reduced number of cheaters in the newer version.

[tipper|DES|]

I rather think you’ve missed the intended humour Zarj ;) but sure, statistics have their place.
However, statistics are only as good as the input data and then of course you have to interpret the results.

What is interesting is a great many mathematical proofs were brought about by someone “feeling” something was true and then setting out to provide a mathematical proof to back that feeling up.
A great many so called proofs start at “experience shows us” and develop from there.

Basically, no girlie feeling; no proof.

So, I’ll tell you what, I’ll do the girlie feeling bit because it’s in my comfort zone and someone else is more than welcome to come up with the proof. The fact that any proof produced:
a) wont be properly understood by the majority
b) will be disputed by others
c) will be ignored for partisan reasons by some.

makes this whole business of proofs and blacklists a bit of a nonsense which is why I imagine Brahma, the head of science here gave up.

The current policy seems to me to be let the discrete cheats play because it’s too much aggravation to remove them from the game.

Its not a policy i agree with though.

[titiPT]

You suffer
But why?

[tipper|DES|]

At the risk of getting more points on my ac participation license and of course the wrath of the humourless my answer can be found here titiPT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yachrjvO2Ow

;)

[Brahma]

Seriously, tipper... be less girlie. You talk and talk, rounding around arguments and mis-concepts, applying some logics* only when it is good for you.
*which you are not doing well...

I agree there are some relationship between statistics and girlie-wise. But it is far from 100% correlation as you suggest. You must remember that my main effort was to reduce speedhacking and aimbots... while, in majority, your feelings were about weapon and wall hackings. Obviously I tried to cover all fronts (not always 100% successful).

Let be sane... I believe you should apologize to Benson and recognize misbehaviors such as yours are poisonous to the game (or at least, weave better arguments, in the same level as tempest, zarj and others did).

Come on...
Let me quote titiPT... and please, do not keep this thread too personal.
I really would like a community enlightenment about girlie accusations in the pubs. I am just trying to use your case as a good example of "please, be mature, avoid this behavior for the best of the game".

[tipper|DES|]

Okay Brahma point by point then if you can manage it ;)
I don’t want you to waffle on about some irrelevant bullshit Brahma, address the points or back up.

“Seriously, tipper... be less girlie. You talk and talk, rounding around arguments and mis-concepts, applying some logics* only when it is good for you.
*which you are not doing well...”

Yep I talk, cite me a “miss concept”, whatever that is.
The application of logic to suit ones argument is normal practice Brahma.

“I agree there are some relationship between statistics and girlie-wise. But it is far from 100% correlation as you suggest.”

Where did I suggest 100% correlation?
Cite me a mathematical proof that wasn’t constructed from the need to prove a supposition. There are some if my memory serves me but do you know which Brahma?

“You must remember that my main effort was to reduce speedhacking and aimbots... while, in majority, your feelings were about weapon and wall hackings. Obviously I tried to cover all fronts (not always 100% successful).”

I don’t know what your main effort was directed at Brahma so I’ll take your word for it.
It’s true that my main concern is about the discrete cheats such as assisted aim, reduced recoil, changes to hitbox, wall hacks and map overviews.
I appreciate your efforts to reduce the obvious cheats but that’s the problem Brahma, the players can discern the obvious cheats for themselves.
It’s the not so obvious cheats that are the problem; a problem which imo you had led this community to believe you could tackle.
Any fool can can rest a piece of wood on some bricks and call it a table Brahma.

“Let be sane... I believe you should apologize to Benson and recognize misbehaviors such as yours are poisonous to the game (or at least, weave better arguments, in the same level as tempest, zarj and others did).

Frankly I’m not that impressed with tempests level of argument (“newsflash”, threat, close thread) Is this the behavior you expect from your team Brahma?
Lets make no mistake here these guys are your choice to represent this game as mods.
Zarj did better, but he obviously has a great faith in statistics. Having spent many years as an engineer I appreciate their limitations.

I am quite sane Brahma. You can believe what you wish. It’s not going to happen.
It’s this I find fascinating. It seems you would prefer a happy clappy illusion that avoids any conflict of opinion rather than address reality.
So, I ask you, is calling someone a cheat more poisonous than cheating?

Players call other players cheats everyday in this game. Is there something special about Benson that I should know about?

Will you be banning everyone who calls out Hax or cheat in game in future?
A great many here I apparently don’t like or can’t handle any obvious conflict, I happen to think it’s healthy. It helps to demonstrate that the forum is open and free from excessive moderation.
Such conflicts go on within this community; they have and will as long as the community exists. It’s a perfectly natural process and one to be encouraged.

[Ronald_Reagan]

It is threads like these that tear the community apart, and do not lead anywhere.

I now agree with the original closing of the thread, and now wish for it to be done again.

[Mael]

Let's address Benson's concerns and try to achieve some sort of resolution on that front before we go off on these tangents. Targeted insults should not be tolerated on a public server and will not be tolerated on these forums regardless of your opinion. Even if these accusations are true they do not warrant such unsavoury remarks especially from a long time community member who should be setting the example. Benson would probably just appreciate that it doesn't occur again.

Re: The supposed policy of "let[ting] the discrete cheats play because it’s too much aggravation to remove them from the game"

Nobody could encourage such a policy. The difference between the discrete and the obvious is that the obvious blacklists can be confidently supported by clear evidence while the discrete are largely a matter of opinion. To my knowledge, only the discrete cases have resulted in flip flopping bans; a player is banned for cheating only to have that ban removed by some when their decision is reversed. The "policy" above is just a reflection of frustration and disagreement on individual cases. A ban endorsed by this forum should ideally be confidently supported by the community but when the case is discrete and the evidence is weak it is difficult to achieve this confident support. Thus it is possible that case should not be endorsed by this forum but server owners are obviously permitted to form their own opinions and act accordingly.

It is impossible to debate one "policy" over another because we're ignoring the fact that it ultimately boils down to the evidence of each case and the opinions of those that analyse the data. The only real policy is that cheating is not permitted and those that are caught will be banned. Whether that ban achieves the confident support above is, again, a matter of opinion.

[Zarjio]

I don’t know what your main effort was directed at Brahma so I’ll take your word for it.
It’s true that my main concern is about the discrete cheats such as assisted aim, reduced recoil, changes to hitbox, wall hacks and map overviews.
I appreciate your efforts to reduce the obvious cheats but that’s the problem Brahma, the players can discern the obvious cheats for themselves.
It’s the not so obvious cheats that are the problem; a problem which imo you had led this community to believe you could tackle.
Any fool can can rest a piece of wood on some bricks and call it a table Brahma.

I'm sorry, but I appreciate the fact that the server will now automatically kick players who are using long-distance gibs and speed hacks.
I don't want to have to spend every game spectating players who may be aimbotting, or using remote pickups, or speed hacking, or whatever. You can't possibly tell me that its not useful to have the server automatically kick these people.

Do you remember the last days of 1.04, tipper? Probably about half the servers I went onto had someone using a long distance gib hack. It made them unplayable. Even some well run and well maintained ones got like that. There simply aren't enough AC players to have admins on every server 24/7, so I am going to say thanks to Brahma for providing a system that will automatically deal with problems like this. Who cares if the morons get blacklisted or not? As long as they are not able to ruin pubs like this, I'm happy.

And I'm sorry, but you are wrong about the discrete hacks being the main problem with the community. Back in 1.04 I rage quit so many days when I simply couldn't find a server to play on that wasn't just one guys long distance gibbing everyone on the server. Yes, the discrete hackers damage the competitive edge of the game. Yes, they deserve to be blacklisted. But the situation we have now is better than it was, where people can download AC and actually play, rather than playing for 20 minutes, dying without every actually seeing anyone, and vowing to never play again because the game is full of nothing but hacks.

[tipper|DES|]

The truth is Mael and Zarj I just find this whole cheats business frustrating.
But yes, Brahma has done a great deal to alleviate the problem and believe it or not I’m grateful for the work he’s put into the game. The problem is I just can’t help arguing with the guy. It would be easy to think I don’t like him but it’s not the case. I suppose I’m disappointed that what I consider to be the worst kind of cheating cannot be dealt with in a more effective way.

Anyway, for the sake of keeping the peace I won’t contribute further to this thread.
In fact, in a few days I’ll be on my way back to Spain and won’t be here to piss anyone off for a while.

[V-Man]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
As time goes on, cheats will have to become more and more subtle in order to escape detection (this is, in large part, due to the anticheat). And the more subtle cheats become, the less disruptive they are to legitimate gameplay (and the less useful they are to the cheaters). In my mind, this implies that cheating will eventually be so useless as to not be worth cheaters' time.

Zarj's point about obvious cheats is spot on. Those "in-your-face, you-can't-play-because-of-how-over-9000-this-cheat-is" cheats are what nearly ruined AC. The anti-cheat is one of the best improvements to the game ever. Maybe it had a couple bugs (fixed now -- yes, it's constantly changing, so criticism against it one day will be outdated the next), and maybe it doesn't kick out every single cheater, but I'd like to see anyone else do a better job on their first try.

As for subtle cheats, think about if you were accused of a crime. Would you rather have a judge and jury who base the court decisions on factual evidence, or on their gut instincts?
In the first place, it is illegal in many areas to accuse someone of a crime without proper evidence. Aside from that, it's simply rude. You may have noticed the community trying to cut back on rudeness lately. This is a legitimate, forceful movement included in the forum rules.
As tempest mentioned, if you're (meaning anyone reading this) sure enough about a cheat to accuse him to his face, you ought to instead quietly submit the evidence to the blacklist thread.

[Alien]

About logic:
There are many kinds of logic and you can even create your own. The standard logic has many problems and especially semantic. There exists domain dependent logics or time dependent logics for example.

About statistic:
Statistic works with bigger numbers, therefore is used for atoms, people in states, in economy. You cannot apply static with 200 players in AC. If you have so few units, the weight of interpretations is really high. In such case the statistic is used only as first step for deeper analyze.

About anticheat:
The direction through anticheat is only one. The massive blacklisting or demo analyzes didn't work.

About "pro" player analyzes:
There is possible,the "pro" player can have the reason to think some player cheats, other players (able to analyze) should raise eyes with warning, but he shouldn't tell him it publicly. he should collect materials and then ban him. I remember we were blamed we thought it about one player in private discussion in his server, he was very angry about it after reading logs. There is a line. Tipper got across.

[Bukz]

Yes lets waste our valuable time collecting proof for people who just shrug it off anyway because they are friends with the accused. Sounds like a good investment for our time.

[Cleaner]

This thread has led to some interesting debate about cheaters and what is done to counteract their efforts to ruin (in our point of view) the game.

Brahma's imo should have had a great deal more of physical supports in order to detect cheats and improving the anti-cheat project.
Had he like a strong dedicated team behind him he probably never gave up.

But to comment the original post, I am called all sorts of names all the time ingame, often kicked out servers when I am on top of the score board... Do I come here and cry cry about it? NO!

And it's Tipper called Girlie? You having a giraffe or what?

[Benson]

@ tipper: I just made it public on the forum because you said, that lots of ppl think that I cheat. I wanted to talk with you on a private server - you didn't want. So I saw a reason to post it, and I wanted to hear the opinion of other players regarding my special case, and regarding the whole thing.
At least - as Brahma said - an interesting discussion started.

@Crema: I don't think that you've understood a word from my post. As I said, you will never be able to make money in AC - and that's good. Though I'd still appreciate it, if skilled players aren't hated.

Imo everyone can think, what he wants, but not cry it out if there's no proof. Though cheaters must be detected somehow, and beeing suspicious is important.

Obvious cheats destroy the pubs - subtle ones destroy the game.

[titiPT]

Obvious cheats destroy the pubs - subtle ones destroy the game.

No.
95% (made-up statistics) of the players who play AC are the pub-players. The game would continue just fine without the competitive players.

Imo everyone can think, what he wants, but not cry it out if there's no proof.

Everyone can cry about anything, no-one is able to stop them. It's the internet. It's how you react to the whining that determines how they will procede.