Are maps getting worse?

[Hellspell]

Have maps in general gotten worse since the introduction of the 'quality requisites'?

[ExodusS]

http://forum.cubers.net/thread-3258.html

[tempest]

They're not making them worse, nor are they making them better. If the requisites prevented some people from making great maps (by turning those people off in the beginning), I don't think anyone can tell.

[Bukz]

No kidding. Instead of making a bunch of different topics for these flamewars, can't we keep them to 1 topic for the sake of user sanity?

[Andrez]

Holy hell, how on Earth could maps be worse than before after restrictions?

Are ezjemshits and alike the best maps out there to say so, or something else? Can anyone explain the point (if any) of this topic to me?

[Hellspell]

@Bukz There are no flame wars here, nor do I hope for there to be any
@andrez we never used to have crap like riflecamper and the abominable, modified to fit the restrictions twin towers you now see till 1.1

[Bukz]

Just because you didn't see them at that time, doesn't mean mappers were unable to make those kinda maps back then. The requisites do not cause maps to get any worse. Horribly flawed logic tbh.

I see no reason that these points could not of been brought up in one of the other two existing threads about these subjects.

[Hellspell]

Bukz, stop nitpicking. The map requisites force mapmakers into making them a certain way. Sure people were able to make maps like riflecamper, the new twin towers maps etc. and probably did although I certainly never saw any back in 1.04 most likely because they simply weren't as good as the other maps people were able to make. So even if similar maps did exist then, they have only came to prominence now thanks to lack of competition due to the map restrictions. Horribly flawed logic in your comment.

[Bukz]

"lack of competition" LOL

Did you miss this and this?

[Alien]

The restrictions don't make maps worse, it is mapper who determines the quality of the map. The restrictions want probably to allow only similar variations of default maps at the end what means destroying possible space of various maps which was and can be in AC. In certain angle AC is still mod of CUBE with certain style. If Cube development would continue, there would be no problem with restrictions. AC is everywhere presented as game with COOP mode and with great of possibility customization. Restrictions goes against this presentation.

Next the quality of maps in default package are low if you compare it with other games. I tried to create map for cube 2, it took a whole week, here i can create decent map in 2 days of pure time. If newcomer would taste default style and then many styles in custom servers, it would be a problem for you ?

[Lantry]

No, green apples aren't really my thing. I prefer reds, especially gala. Yeah, I think gala are my favorite, though a nice crunchy gold delicious can really give it a run for it's money.

[#M|A#Wolf]

First of all, although I have my little disagreements with the map requisites, I don't think the quality of the maps now on 1.1 is getting worse. Compared to 1.0.4, we clearly have less of those "huge" maps in the game now, and I would concur that with these map requisites it would be sagacious to say that the quality has become more stable.

Meanwhile, I believe a few of the reasons why several mappers oppose or dislike these requisites is that A.) they don't have the enough flexibility and/or interest to change their style of mapping to create something that fits the requirements, or B.) they are vexed with the lack of information on why their maps don't fit the requirements, for some mappers that have met this event assert that they have no idea what is faulty with their map (though wasn't 1.1.0.4 supposed to tell you?).

I don't really know where you got the conception that maps are getting worse, do you have some examples of this occurring, cause in my viewpoint, quality is still as good as before (as you can see here, here, here, here, here, and tons of others)?

Lastly, I don't quite grasp your idea regarding the relationship between the lack of competition and map requisites. The mentality of competition will always be there, only thing that is changing are the maps, so how exactly did you come up with this?

[ExodusS]

Reals maps are getting better , just because mappers are getting better , they all learn more and more about mapping skill and what players like playing.

[Apollo{TyD}]

No, green apples aren't really my thing. I prefer reds, especially gala. Yeah, I think gala are my favorite, though a nice crunchy gold delicious can really give it a run for it's money.

You should try a Galmac

[Lantry]

Have you tried one of those apples that are soaked in grape flavoring or something? I believe they are called "Grapples". They are pretty tasty, but when I had one the only thing I could think of was the chemicals used to make them taste that way. I prefer natural apples any day.

[#M|A#Wolf]

Lantry, can we go back on-topic now?

[Lantry]

Oh deary me, I seem to have gotten my threads crossed. Be a nice little boy and help me untangle them, will you?

[Hellspell]

"lack of competition" LOL

Did you miss this and this?

A bunch of maps I've never seen played? (Not meaning to offend any makers)

Lastly, I don't quite grasp your idea regarding the relationship between the lack of competition and map requisites. The mentality of competition will always be there, only thing that is changing are the maps, so how exactly did you come up with this?

Competition from other maps is what i was referring to. Maps like riflecamper, all the @camper maps etc. if made in 1.04 would never have gotten played. Not when people were able to make and play maps like ezjemville, the real headshot/skyscraper cities, the real twin towers and so on

[Mael]

Sure people were able to make maps like riflecamper, the new twin towers maps etc. and probably did although I certainly never saw any back in 1.04 most likely because they simply weren't as good as the other maps people were able to make. So even if similar maps did exist then, they have only came to prominence now thanks to lack of competition due to the map restrictions. Horribly flawed logic in your comment.

You want to talk about AC's map history but only as far back as 1.04?

There were plenty of maps like twintowers that were popular long before 1.04 or even 1.0. 0.93(And earlier I believe) was inundated with open flat maps(ac_aim(?), etc.) overflowing with mapmodels as well as ac_desert4.0 and ac_theatre(?), a one room map with ~14 rows of chairs and no walls between RVSF and CLA; both of which were immensely popular.

Then there were straight drop maps which have likely existed since the earliest versions of AC because they are so easy to make. And who could forget ac_hill(?), nothing but an open grassy plain with some towers at one end and a single texture building at the other.

Most of these maps wouldn't fit the quality requisites[Except the later versions of ac_desert4.0, maaaybe] yet they were played at about the same frequency as ac_desert or any official map. I had more fun playing many of those maps, namely ac_desert4.0, than I have had on any official map.

That being said, maps are not getting worse. They are getting better. But most are not at the level that I would expect them to be by now. Most new maps I play are vaguely interesting but none is as fun as the old maps. This is not a result of the quality requisites. It's just unimaginative design on the mapper's part.

[Bukz]

@Hellspell: Just because you have not seen the maps being played, doesn't mean they are not ever played. ;)

Some maps get played privately as well as on the pubs (for inters, matches, etc.), where the players actually focus on the true game-play and strategies AssaultCube was meant to have - not - run down this hallway for a while and hope you don't get headshot by some noob camping a one-way-shooting-bunker nearby.

If you were talking about competition from other maps, you're still wrong. Have you not noticed how the quality in good maps have increased tenfold since the early AC days? Have you not notcied the hundreds of engine pushing maps that still adhere beautifully to AC's ideals of game-play? Have you really not noticed all the people ripping off each other's maps and throwing in tiny modifications and calling it their own? (you should know all about that) - Check my links again, if you truly believe that there is no more competition amongst mappers - clearly you didn't read them entirely or, are just simply unwilling to notice the obvious because it works against your arguments about the restrictions. :)

Anybody who truly believes that the swarm of crap maps we've seen in 1.1, is caused by the mapping restrictions, clearly has no real understanding of this game and the (many) discussions this community has had about it in the past. Mappers make crap maps, not the source code.

I await your mature, painstakingly well constructed rebuttal to my points, as always Desekrator. <3

* Bukz in b4 "all your maps suck and you're just jealous of @campers" \:D

[Frogulis]

Have you really not noticed all the people ripping off each other's maps and throwing in tiny modifications and calling it their own? (you should know all about that)

If you are referring to his lss_brasil remake, he was adequately clear that it WAS a remake and was not his original work.

If you are referring to something else...then...I was never here...
* Frogulis away!

[tempest]

Mappers make crap maps, not the source code.

Exactly. Now following that logic, why would source code (i.e. hardcoded restrictions) make maps better?

[Bukz]

It (alone) won't make them better, but it will give mappers incentive to make better maps that will pass them.

[Xenon]

-Skips to making post without reading-

put ezjemville back in.

[Lantry]

This could actually be a case of the map restrictions causing a map to be remade better than the original.

[Hellspell]

@Hellspell: Just because you have not seen the maps being played, doesn't mean they are not ever played. ;)

Which is exactly why I said that instead of 'a bunch of maps no-one plays'

Have you really not noticed all the people ripping off each other's maps and throwing in tiny modifications and calling it their own? (you should know all about that)

Oh please, you're not fooling anyone.

It (alone) won't make them better, but it will give mappers incentive to make better maps that will pass them.

More often it just makes them find ways to cheat the restrictions or puts them off making maps at all

[Mael]

More often it just makes them find ways to cheat the restrictions or puts them off making maps at all

Thank you, Captain Statistician, for taking time out of your day to provide that expert testimony. You are excused. Prosecution, call your next witness.

[Bukz]

Thats why the restrictions need fixing/updating, so theres no longer ways for them to cheat the system. ;)

If simple quality restrictions would stop someone from even trying, I'd think that'd say a lot about the quality of maps they would be putting out there anyways. Quality requirements are everywhere, not just in AC. I feel terribly sorry for those who believe they are entitled to 100% creative freedom in every aspect of life, that isn't how the world works, for good reasons.

[Hellspell]

Thank you, Captain Statistician, for taking time out of your day to provide that expert testimony. You are excused. Prosecution, call your next witness.

You're welcome, Sergeant Sarcastic.

@Bukz But that doesn't mean there needs to be 'quality requirements' in AC. People got on fine without them, they played the maps they did like and didn't play the ones they didn't. I don't see what the problem was with that.

[Bukz]

This whole thing is really starting to sound like such a broken record...nothing new when it comes to these subjects. u_u

People may of gotten on fine, but the good custom maps that were actually made for AC sure have not been getting on fine. Crap maps that go entirely against the ideals of this game, hog most of the players. Then people complain endlessly about how you never see good custom maps being played often enough. I wonder, why that might be? Because they are bad maps? Because the players dislike the author(s)? Not so much, all the players are on 24/7 crap map servers. You fancy those kind of maps? Awesome, you can play them all you want, I couldn't care less - just try to rape our game a little bit less in the process. ;)