Weapon Balance and Gameplay Discussion

[makkE]

We are currently working on the shotgun. We are working on a way of spreading 3 kinds of pellets of diffrent strength, and we are making the spread more even and predictable. This will enable us to very finely tune the damage/range ratio, and guarantee hits when aimed properly. Also, I want to make sure that shotgun splatter will only occur on very short ranges, so it's sort of a melee hit kind of thing.

It will still take a while until we can add our work-in-progress code to the svn for everyone to test. I am positive though that we can make the shotgun more useful than it was in 1.0 while balancing it's damage better than 1.1.

The other guns changes in recent svn are mainly : SMG now has 15 1/2 damage, sniper is back to 85 damage. This might not be ideal yet, but at the moment we concentrate on the shotgun code. Feel free to keep commenting on the recent balance(minus the shotty). :)

After that, we hope we can buff the nades a bit, to make up for the stronger armour and the fact that nades are now more sparse. I might want to take a look at the bouncing of them too. They bounce a bit too strong off walls and people...

[#M|A#Wolf]

I think that the grenade "bouncing off people" effect should really be modified. It doesn't make sense to throw a nade at someone, but then end up committing suicide because the nade decided to bounce off the person right to your feet.

Maybe something like reducing the bouncing specially from a player to make it look real as in real life. For example, if I throw a grenade at someone right now full power into their chest it would probably explode with impact or hit his chest and bounce a little back and fall close to his feet.

[OpenSource]

Thx makkE.
Sounds good.

The nada still need to bounce from walls tho.
If you throw a nada in a brick-wall it wont just fall strait down.
So if its possible to make the bounce less on ppl/players and still keep the wall bounce that would be good.

Nadas are a great tool to get enemies coming after you as you leave enemy base with flag.

[wolfbr]

I like Panda's idea of a primary weapon for grenades, but that's something for the future. In the meantime however I am offering to send the devs 2 cases of their favorite drink in exchange for putting nade pickups back to 2.

no, Grenades are poweups,but, i like to se a grenade launcher in the game.
the only difference is that you can not adjust the time of detonation, the grenade would go further, it would be a good weapon for support(like urban terror's hk69).
AC does not need many weapons, but, maybe it would be an interesting a Grenade launcher, HMG, Rocket launcher and Flamethrower : D
rocket launcher > 1 Round [3 rockets] ammo; grenade launcher > 1 Round [5 granades].

and, add akimbo for primary weapon(like a pistol, but, more ammo) and replace akimbo(power up) to minigun : )- perfect to me(I think)
------
about balance, I do not think is very interesting weaken some weapons, it is more interesting to improve the weapons are weak, it is good to kill the enemy quickly with little ammunition : D

[OpenSource]

So why not just give us all nuclear bombs and its all about releasing it first to kill all?

«sudo apt-get killall» is my key-bind here on out.

[makkE]

Nade bouncing: I think we might need diffrent behaviours for walls and people. I think the nades bounce off walls a bit too much though - they behave like a tennis ball - bouncing back at almost the same speed they were thrown. This could be nerfed a bit. Bouncing off people should be a lot weaker than bouncing off walls. But they still need to bounce off to some extend.

Wolfbr, please stop bringing in ideas and views from other games - it's futile, and doesn't fit this thread. AC has it's own kind of gameplay, and this thread is about previous version's gameplay vs new version's gamepelay and balancing issues. I have a feeling you haven't been around long enough to get the finer points discussed here.
While I appreciate your efforts, I think your ideas are better suited for this thread maybe: http://forum.cubers.net/thread-16.html?highlight=ideas

[Panda]

Please don't change the strength of nades bouncing off walls, it renders years of training redundant and I think it's fine the way it is for a semirealistic game like this. Less bounce strenght off people on the other hand, thats a great idea. Might even solve the power issue, since then you can just throw the nade in their face and it will hit them. (Don't make them stick too much though, there should be a chance to escape if the timing is not great.)

Also what I always would have loved seeing, and I think suggested once before, is to make unexploded nades hitting people give them a bit of damage, like 5 or 10 on the body and 15 or 20 on the face.

[titiPT]

So why not just give us all nuclear bombs and its all about releasing it first to kill all?

«sudo apt-get killall» is my key-bind here on out.

we have that already, it's called l33tsupah4ax0r.

Please don't change the strength of nades bouncing off walls, it renders years of training redundant(...).

Also what I always would have loved seeing, and I think suggested once before, is to make unexploded nades hitting people give them a bit of damage, like 5 or 10 on the body and 15 or 20 on the face.

x2

[makkE]

It's true, it's probably too late to change wall-bounce, without causing another uproar.

[Bukz]

Which is not a good reason to not evolve! Just sayin..

Changes that are in fact not beneficial towards the game can easily be reverted; one of the beauties of SVN, these "uproars" over minor changes in the game seem really silly/petty. Change is not always a bad thing. I say go for it and let people test it, and if it turns out to be not as good of an idea as originally planned (after proper ammounts of testing) then revert.

AC shouldn't be "etched in stone" when it's just now getting into the 1.1 stages...I'd say it has come a long way, but at the same time still has a long way to come. Won't get "there" without change. I say keep up the good work boys/girls! :)

[MorganKell]

I agree with Panda. Part of the fun with grenades is being able to ricochet them at pursuers when you're running hell's bells away with that flag.

[Mr.Floppy]

I have to agree with Panda and Morgan here and additionally like to mention that the wall-bouncing part of AC nades fits the fast pace and even adds to the tactical use of them.

At any other (tactical, slow paced) game I've seen grenades happen to be a throw-and-hope weapon only. Causing real demage there depends on how idle enemies act or how "blind" and "deaf" they are...

The ability to throw nades around corners, in the context of a game with tight maps, opens a good load of posibilities to use them tactically according to the actions you're going to take withing the next 3 seconds, which is a lot of time in AC-world.

Though, it's surely worth to have a SVN test on this.

[wolfbr]

Wolfbr, please stop bringing in ideas and views from other games - it's futile, and doesn't fit this thread. AC has it's own kind of gameplay, and this thread is about previous version's gameplay vs new version's gamepelay and balancing issues. I have a feeling you haven't been around long enough to get the finer points discussed here.
While I appreciate your efforts, I think your ideas are better suited for this thread maybe: http://forum.cubers.net/thread-16.html?highlight=ideas

I understand, buethese ideas are not exclusively from other games, would be tailored to the AC, granade launcher and rocket launcher were not inventions of other games, are weapons that exist in the real world(unlike railgun), I accretive you must have had inspiration in quake-like games to make AC, its fine, it worked, I see no problems with that.

I can not remember which was the first version of AC that I played, just remember that the AR had more fireinterval, like a LMG an AR(Current Version) and the carbine was not present in the game(one of the things that inspired me to play again was the addition of a new weapon, I wanted to test, and I really enjoyed).

as I said, the game does not need a large amount of weapons, maybe some that improve the game of strategy and fun way(rocket launcher for groups and HMG to support in close quarters).

I just said that these ideas work well in many games, and I think that would work well in AC, but I will not discuss new weapons in this topic, sorry XD

--------------
about balance: I think that would reduce the carbine ammunition(10 to 8 = 4 kills), or 10 to 5 and reduce reload time, because I think that gun a little powerful primarily as a defensive weapon.

idea 1 = Extend the reload time
or
idea 2 = reduce ammo and reload time

for assault rifle> reduce kickback a little,to reduce Assault rifle jump and improve the weapon when used defensively.

pistol = 8 ammo clip is fine to me

[Shorty]

Niceness! Now, i can get 100 kills with sniper at 85 dmg instead of 81 at 80 dmg :)

[jAcKRoCk*]

Maybe i can ask a 10 shots clip on the pistol? I kinda always get short of bullets the bounce of nades can be used as an advantage if used well :)

[makkE]

Jackrock, open your eyes: We are testing with a 10-shot magazine in the pistol at the moment :)

[ActionGoose]

I got a few ideas.

AR
Allways hated it in 1.0.4 because SMG was taking steroids. I still like the idea of a burst fire AR regardless of what some of the community veterans think.

Shotgun
this gun is amazing in 1.1. i liked it in 1.0.4 but now its so much more fun to use.

Sniper
i dont like it anymore, feels like a clumsy carbine.

Pistol
feels like a water gun. try as i might, i never have gotten a kill that wasn't assisted by my primary.

Maps
we need more maps like Ubahn. that map had nice sniper vs sniper areas, shotgun areas, the whole map was at a range where the assault rifle shined, and the smg was good at clearing out the snipers. I was expecting that map to be in official servers, but it wasn't. well it still got voted plenty of times.

OFFTOPIC

can someone tell me the bind for turning something into normal ground, and also what is the bind for leveling a large area?

[jAcKRoCk*]

Jackrock, open your eyes: We are testing with a 10-shot magazine in the pistol at the moment :)

i can't, no one told me how to test the SVN but thanks :D

[Fate]

SMG now has 15 1/2 damage, sniper is back to 85 damage.

As with SMG probably going to have 15½ damage in the next release, is the recoil going to be changed in any way?

[Panda]

You can simply download it yourself and test: http://actiongame.svn.sourceforge.net/vi.../?view=tar

I think the recoil is stronger now.

[Bukz]

-mega snip-
can someone tell me the bind for turning something into normal ground, and also what is the bind for leveling a large area?

This is not really the place for it but use:

[SELECT ALL] Code:

bind KEY [
    if $editing [
        if (= $flrceil 0) [equalize 0] [equalize 2]
    ] []
]

..in your autoexec.cfg, but change "KEY" to whatever key you want bound. Now, when in edit mode, select an area of cubes, and if you're looking up at the ceiling when you press the keybind, it will level the ceiling cubes, if you're looking at the floor when you press it, it will level the floor cubes. HTH

Btw, G will turn an area into "normal" ground, if by normal you mean, unheightfielded and non-solid.

[makkE]

SMG now has 15 1/2 damage, sniper is back to 85 damage.

As with SMG probably going to have 15½ damage in the next release, is the recoil going to be changed in any way?

The recoil of AR and SMG is currently in between 1.0 and 1.1, with the SMG being more towards 1.0 (not the exact middle).

[snake_eye]

maybe if you shoot like burst , then should recoil and spread go bigger , if you shoot one by one or three shots at time then it would be smaller:)

[Fate]

SMG now has 15 1/2 damage, sniper is back to 85 damage.

As with SMG probably going to have 15½ damage in the next release, is the recoil going to be changed in any way?

The recoil of AR and SMG is currently in between 1.0 and 1.1, with the SMG being more towards 1.0 (not the exact middle).

Ahh okeyz, I kinda miss the feel of the SMG back in 1.0... ;D

[Ronald_Reagan]

Snake_eye, I believe it already does that to an extent.

[*SMG*_3m]

Nadas should still count as 1 kill, having 3 of them is also great.
Maybe make is so some pickups are 2 and some 1...?
They need to get a bit stronger.

Shotguns are worst, IMO, they are to powerful.
Increase the pelt spread more over distance or lower the power.

The other guns seems fin to me.

Can devs give us a feedback on what they are thinking/doing with 1.1.0.5?

that sounds good to me ^.^ got to love open source

[GingerSnaps]

Just an observation not complaining.. really this game kicks!
After further playing the newer version more & getting use to the timing...
I have found the shotgun as powerful as it was, "if" you are good at running backwards.. something I'm practicing, I always use to just run away and that worked just fine..
Now it seems like 2 shots to the back, no matter how much armor i have and I'm dead..

Also seems to me that at point blank range, shotgun no longer kills everytime..
I use to always run up to the back of someone or right up to their face and one shot at close range to the head or back & "boom" they were dead, it seemed to kill'em no matter how much armor they had... I guess the armor is stronger now..? or if you get too close now it only wounds them?
Anyways, thanks for the great game..
GingerSnaps

p.s.
I love the 3 nades...

[Jessie]

I would like to see a few players on the SVN so I could try it out!:D I personally don't really like the smg on the current version and after reading this and seeing hope for smg players again:D

[Mael]

I hope more people realize that the issues with weapon balance aren't just related to the stats of each gun. It's also about what map you are playing on and the quantity of maps that are suited for one weapon contrasted with those suited for another. In 1.0 many maps were best played with the sniper. Combine that with the gun's natural advantages and everyone will use it. There's another way to balance weapons and it's making/tweaking more maps where each weapon has it's advantage.

Point is, mappers, look at the [official]maps that are out there, the weapons that are best on those maps and gear your's so they're more versatile.

[Jessie]

I hope more people realize that the issues with weapon balance aren't just related to the stats of each gun. It's also about what map you are playing on and the quantity of maps that are suited for one weapon contrasted with those suited for another. In 1.0 many maps were best played with the sniper. Combine that with the gun's natural advantages and everyone will use it. There's another way to balance weapons and it's making/tweaking more maps where each weapon has it's advantage.

Point is, mappers, look at the [official]maps that are out there, the weapons that are best on those maps and gear your's so they're more versatile.

Yes, I realise that and I find I vary between AR, Sniper, Shotgun and barely touch the SMG anymore because as soon as you find a close enough map to play SMG effectivley once you have loaded the 8_bullet_minimum into them they have tracked you down with a shotgun and splattered you. With the new 83 hit sniper and 10 clip pistol the sniper sounds good once more but I have too poor aim to use it. Assault Rifle IMO doesn't need to be changed, just the others modded to compete. Once again I think your point is a good one but the SMG and shotgun environment are similar and hard for a smg player to survive without launching themselves backwards.