Weapon Balance and Gameplay Discussion

[makkE]

Just been talking to panda on irc, clearing up most of those points.

Sniper is not supposed to get stronger than it was in 1.0 - keep in mind these are just the initial thoughts ( and me thinking aloud ) about the balance - just the initial values ("directions") I want to test to see if it works out.

AR will not effectively go weaker, just a tad harder to handle. The balance between SMG and AR is still a tricky thing, the values I found are just a starting point. Things must be tested, not everything can be calculated on paper.

Shotgun: Hitzones doesn't mean hitzones on the player's body. It means circular zones of diffrent damage, so we can balance the damage/range ratio better and finer than now.

Stronger nades sound good so far, but for now we concentrate on the main guns first. I see that there is room for improvement though, it feels like nades need a small adjustment to the stronger armour.

[MorganKell]

"Stronger nades sound good so far, but for now we concentrate on the main guns first. I see that there is room for improvement though, it feels like nades need a small adjustment to the stronger armour."

Could we get a two point gib as well?

[KN!F3]

Yep, we should have a whole mode where we can use guns but everyone decides to travel from pickup to pickups getting 2 kills with an extremely explosion damaging long range wall bouncing spammable ball of death.

I actually think the damage is excellent. If you quick throw it and spray your main weapon:

SMG+Nade=Chaos and Blinds them
AR+Nade=Fast Kill
Shotty+Nade=OP
Carbine+Nade=Meh
Sniper+Nade=1 second ko

Nades alone can be used to deal 1 hit kos but are incredibly effective for taking out multiple people and comboing. So I suggest that you keep the power the same. Thank you.

[ElCrema]

If you could, some how, reduce the kick back of the smg to be no match for the AR rifle sprint/jump, then you add a more unique use for the AR - flag runs!
Have no idea if this is possible. I fell like there should be an overall balance for all the weapon (always in relation to the terrain) but every weapon should have that little ace hidden in the sleeve. Rifle run/jump is the strong point of the AR, but if you good enough, you can use the smg to rifle run/sprint as well and have very similar results.

Anyways, the changes are sounding good and I can't wait for test run!

[Undead]

@Panda: i'm not sure what you're talking about, when i played 1.0 every map was dominated by smgs besides power/depot, and quality snipers could play on maps like d3/mines/shine etc. the only thing that made the sniper somewhat overpowered imo was the huge headshot hitbox.

[MorganKell]

Yep, we should have a whole mode where we can use guns but everyone decides to travel from pickup to pickups getting 2 kills with an extremely explosion damaging long range wall bouncing spammable ball of death.

Ya all I got out of this was this "Yep,". So you don't mind 2 point gibs? SWEET!!

Nades alone can be used to deal 1 hit kos but are incredibly effective for taking out multiple people and comboing. So I suggest that you keep the power the same. Thank you.

Headshots from the sniper are incredibly effective for taking out multiple enemies. All one requires is the right level of skill and decent manual dexterity, gotta keep clicking that trigger ;), and aiming at the dot for 2 points. So why can't grenades have the same thing? It's a ball of DEATH for shimmy's sake. You only dodgy dodge flash long enough to cook them and hurl certain beastliness at your enemy. If you miss you're toast. The sniper is also reloadable -hint hint-. The whole point to grenades is that they offer a real reward for excellence.

"spammable"

That's just offensive. The word you're looking for is "newb-able". A weapon that can be easily used by newbs in order to garner kills they otherwise wouldn't have earned without putting in the exact amount of time down to the second that you have, while still managing to not figure out how to play against "spam". We call this the Chaos Factor. Random explosions happen. Not everyone is honorable enough to challenge you 1 on 1 to a duel when they know you will rock them. We call this the Self-Preservation factor. These newbs will continue wildly hurling the beloved balls of death at you until one of three things happen...

A) They run out. 2 grenades go by pretty quick.
B) You run the opposite direction, take a shortcut, and frag them from behind (This is what we call flanking).
or
C) They finally tire of getting turned into mincemeat by pros who actually know how to play the game, and subsequently decide to learn a different weapon.

---

In the meantime, and I double-post FTW, those of us who have taken up nades as a profession are given a chance to whip out the most extreme skills ever seen since your Mom met your Dad. Two point gibs are fair compensation for the weaknesses and haterism that has been heaped upon Grenadiers since the dawn of time. Take your high-powered rifle, your bullet spamming smg, that ridiculous shotgun, the lovely AR, and that fascinatingly impotent carbine... and learn how to USE them. Accept the challenge offered by us, The Grenadiers.

[JMM]

I actually agree with papa shimmy.

RANDOM ACKSPLOYSHUNS FTW!!!

BEING TURNED INTO MINCE AFTER A MOMENTARY LAPSE OF JUDGEMENT IS ONLY FAIR AND JUST!

[ExodusS]

AssaultRifle : need to have a good aim
SMG : need to know how to use it (3 bullets per 3...)
Shotgun : overpowered but useless in match
Carabine : need to have a good aim but useless in match (not anouth tactinal weapon)
Sniper : need to have a good aim and to scope , 2 pistol bullets or knife

Use your head in game.
Don't take carabine and shotgun in all matchs/maps/mods.
Know all weapons and play with the weapon with who you are the best.
Some players use always shotgun , it don't need a very good aim but it's a weapon.
Shotgun on iceroad for example.

All weapons are usefull somewhere so i think it don't need more changes.

[Atrimos]

"Sniper is not supposed to get stronger than it was in 1.0" ???

I think the smg and the sniper in 1.0 were good weapons (should not be touched).

Then, just had only give power to the other weapons (AR and Shotgun) and not decrease the smg and sniper.

Maybe the 1.0 Sniper and Smg are perfectly balanced with the AR, Shotgun and Carabine in 1.1, at least sounds reasonable.

[ExodusS]

I think that the problem isn't the power of weapons.
I think it's the utility of all weapons.

[Atrimos]

.ExodusS*

a less powerful weapon is a weapon with less use!!!

:)

[Panda]

@Panda: i'm not sure what you're talking about, when i played 1.0 every map was dominated by smgs besides power/depot, and quality snipers could play on maps like d3/mines/shine etc. the only thing that made the sniper somewhat overpowered imo was the huge headshot hitbox.

The headshot area remained the same, I'm assuming you meant the over-the-shoulder normal hitbox - yes that contributed to the sniper's strength.

You just quoted the 5 most played maps and forgot desert, snow, arctic, urban, keller, toxic and aqueous, where the sniper also owned most people. I've seen people play very well with sniper on desert2, complex and even sunset in 1.0. So there are about 2 or 3 maps left where a good sniper player was at a disadvantage vs. good smg and I bet if they bothered to learn the maps properly, they'd have owned there too.

I think that the problem isn't the power of weapons.
I think it's the utility of all weapons.

The utility of all weapons is pretty great at the moment. There are enough map-mode-playercount combinations where certain guns have an advantage and others have a disadvantage.

[JMM]

I think the carbine and shotty are great in clan matches.

[makkE]

Started testing tonight.

Following changes are in svn now:

SMG: Handling inbetween 1.0 and 1.1, old spread, 15 1/2 damage. Might be too strong now.

AR: Handling inbetween 1.0 and 1.1

Sniper: 83 damage, less unscoped spread.

Pistol: 10 bullets, a tad morte accurate, a tad harder handling.

Shotgun and nades have not been changed yet. Please test. Keep in mind these are experimental values, nothing final.

[Gibstick]

Yes, SMG seems too strong. Fifteen damage points at its current handling would be great.
Sniper: Actually useful now, especially with the pistol.
Pistol: awesome, can be spammed (sort of) now.

[makkE]

It seems, due to a little oversight, we have been testing with 16 dmg on smg, not 15 1/2.

It will be fixed by sometime tomorrow evening.

[KN!F3]

@Morgan

I actually loved the nades in 1.0 except when I walk around in depot and power and get entrance spammed. Now you see, I sorta "spammed" nades by grabbing 2 and lobbing both into the entrance while keeping my sniper at the head level so I could get 3 gibs if 3 guys were to come by chance. However, I don't think that standing by the stairway with health and nades in power and throwing into the base is takes a good amount skill and can easily earn you 8 frags (4 gibs) per death. In addition, I think the damage should not change because the lag is a small problem already- you walk into a nade while its exploding = 0 damage. you jump away from a nade thrown at your feet = 100 damage. So meh, I don't really use nades as a main weapon, but they were for getting that kick in the ratio in 1.0. Now that ratio is negligible in 1.1, I don't really think nades need change. Thanks.

[castiel]

It seems, due to a little oversight, we have been testing with 16 dmg on smg, not 15 1/2.

It will be fixed by sometime tomorrow evening.

I did some tests with shield, from 100 hp, 100 armour to death:
- Sniper + Pistol: 1 Snipe + 5 Pistol shots
- Sniper: 2 shots, 3000ms
- AR: 7 shots, 840ms
- Shotgun(obviously harder to test): 2 from closeish/well aimed range, 2000ms
- SMG: 12 shots, 960ms

Now obviously the SMG and AR are if you are hitting every shot, which in most cases is unlikley, I do however think landing 12 SMG shots is alot more unrealistic that somebody hitting you with 2 shotguns or 7 ar shots.

That said, I have to test a bit more with some proper gameplay.

I like the feel of it so far though, and like the new sounds :)

EDIT: With some more gameplay, I like everything other than the toll armour takes on the SMG, killing somebody with 100-100 in actual gameplay is simple with the AR, you almost don't notice they have the armour, whereas with the SMG it is a huge chore to kill somebody at 100-100, unless they are realoading etc, if they have much skill you don't have much of a chance.

[$hield]

Yep, i feel that the Assault rifle's damage is a bit high, i think it should take about 8-9 shots too kill someone with 100-100, it takes 5 to kill someone with 100, idk just dosnt make sense.
The Smg should stay as it is. After all armor is an advantage, so 12 shots to kill someone with 100-100 makes it a nice advantage. The Sniper is total kewlios, but the pistol needs nerfing, i think it should go back down too 8 bullets in a clip, otherwise people just spam pistol bullets. 10 in a clip is a bit much :P

The splatter in the shotgun really needs to go i reckon.
Carbines damage should be atleast 50.

Oh and i love the sounds aswell :D

[#M|A#Wolf]

For the future when the nades get their turn, just modify the nades to make them more effective (more damage and more area/ratio) and I can live in my perfect world again :)

[MorganKell]

@KN!F3

Yea they do. There are people out there, such as myself, who use grenades as a primary weapon. 1.0.4's weapon set offered a lot of variety. 1.1's however has neutralized it. You add a carbine that the majority of players don't like while weakening one everyone clearly did? I'm sorry I don't play sniper, I find it's skill requirement ridiculously time-consuming to learn. I don't play AR because it handles like a Mack Truck. I play shotgun when in the Xander Zone. I play SMG because I am a boss. I play grenades because I absolutely love EXPLOSIONS! Problem is I really can't do that anymore. Reason is because you and other shimmies like you aren't willing or able to accept that grenades are a true blue weapon. Worthy and deserving of more honor than you or anyone else give them credit for.

[Elite]

Well, i was playing 1 singleplayer dm in the svn version, i think the smg is now fine, but i got on AR and smg a kick of the crosshair in the high, it wasnt like a normal recoil increasing little, it jumped from A to B. Is this the new recoil or a bug or have i played too much CoD Mw2?

I also tried sniper but i couldnt hit much unscoped, it felt like a very high kickback of the weapon.

[Robtics]

I think the sniper was actually better with 80 damage. The sniper/pistol combo is more powerfull again anyways as you can spam the pistol better ;) So there is no need to increase the damage again. 83 dmg/shot only requires only 1 pistol shot against unarmoured opponents, am I right?

[Gibstick]

Yes, you are right. See http://wiki.cubers.net/action/view/Weapo...s_and_tips.

[wolfbr]

I think the pistol is a bit strong, to be a secondary weapon.
could be more interesting place akimbo as a primary weapon(not poweup), may be more balanced and a good weapon for backup.
minigun would be a good weapon as poweup XD.

[Panda]

There are people out there, such as myself, who use grenades as a primary weapon.
...

How about we actually add grenade as a primary weapon? Start with 2 or maybe 3 of them, then replenish like normal people + maybe increase nade hold capacity and/or double nade pickups for those players. You only have the (now much stronger) pistol as secondary. Would fit in with the gameplay imo and give you your desired gameplay, minus the gratuitous double kills for little skills. And it adds a role and option for increased teamplay.

[titiPT]

I support that.

[makkE]

Update for all who struggled with the changes in scoped mousefeel:

You can now decide wich feel to use, 1.0 or 1.1 feel. Command is "scopesensfeel" in svn.
We also brought back the simple "scopesens" command, wich overrides automatic scaling and lets you set your scoped sens as you wish. Sorry for the inconvenience caused, if I had witnessed that code was changed about sensitivity, I would have not allowed it in the first place without making sure the feel would stay exactly the same.

The source now has proper 15 1/2 damage sub, but no bins tonight.

[pwnage{TyD}]

I think the sniper was actually better with 80 damage. The sniper/pistol combo is more powerfull again anyways as you can spam the pistol better ;) So there is no need to increase the damage again. 83 dmg/shot only requires only 1 pistol shot against unarmoured opponents, am I right?

Agreed. Otherwise you'll be going backwards, making 1-2 weapons the primary weapons people use.

[ManInTheBox]

I'm agree with Atrimos.. when you get 3 nades?

nade = 2 frags i dont like this idea because:
-headshot an enemy is no easy
-knifed an enemy is no easy (seriously not easy against smg or ar players that move like hell)

- but its easy own them whit a nade (and 2-3-4 with 1 nade).
.
.
.
Shuffle system is no good imo..

-there are shufles when the flag is taken
-you change team 3-4 times in a game because of servershufles or server forceteam..
-if you have a good score (score , no flags) it sucks when server shuffle and you have 50%/over of score team against all enemy team that is a Co-operative team all of them with not a big but not a small score.


Score system
How you get the best combos or best poins¿?
teamwork? how know it?
it would be good if by deafault you can see "you covered the flag, you got x.extrapoints", maybe add "you defend the flag, you won x.extrapoints" or "you stole enemy flag" and that mensajes. ...



*You can now decide wich feel to use, 1.0 or 1.1 feel. Command is "scopesensfeel"

i like it :D