AC Christmas Cup Discussion

[Vanquish]

Unable to play on 23rd.

[Elite]

I would like to see venison as well as terros and lainio on the map pool, each of them are fair and playable for 3vs3.

I have nothing against 23rd, though i would like to see Vanquish playing, hence every date apart sunday is acceptable.

[ExodusS]

I don't know if ac_cavern1.2 will be out before the tournament, but I think a lot of players would play it.

[Marti]

Unable to play on 23rd.

[Undead]

I would like to see venison as well as terros and lainio on the map pool, each of them are fair and playable for 3vs3.

doesn't make them enjoyable to play.

[Vanquish]

though i would like to see Vanquish playing

♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

I don't know if ac_cavern1.2 will be out before the tournament, but I think a lot of players would play it.

We already tried to get Larry to add it, but he said he's not open to adding a map if it's not official. it's a shame but meh

[Mousikos]

We already tried to get Larry to add it, but he said he's not open to adding a map if it's not official. it's a shame but meh

So do we bug Undead or RK to expedite this process? XD

[ExodusS]

I don't know if ac_cavern1.2 will be out before the tournament, but I think a lot of players would play it.

We already tried to get Larry to add it, but he said he's not open to adding a map if it's not official. it's a shame but meh

The map is official, the last version isn't. It's not like we were still on the 1.0 and players could play on different versions of the map...

[Roflcopter]

I don't know if ac_cavern1.2 will be out before the tournament, but I think a lot of players would play it.

We already tried to get Larry to add it, but he said he's not open to adding a map if it's not official. it's a shame but meh

The map is official, the last version isn't. It's not like we were still on the 1.0 and players could play on different versions of the map...

I understand there's no technical problem using non-official maps. The reason is idealogical: I don't want to change the game. Selecting good maps feels like a decision for the devs. The maps also haven't been extensively tested in clan matches and a metagame hasn't been developed on them yet.

[ExodusS]

Devs don't give a shit about match maps, it has been discussed a million times that it was to the competitive scene to bring it's own map list, if it wasn't the case today, you would not make a map list for this cup and you would not ban 70% of the official map list, so I really don't know why "devs" is an excuse to do not pick unofficial maps into cups, especially when you quote them as "good map selectors" if you know what I mean.

A better excuse would have been to point the fact nobody will know the map before the matches and so, nobody will have the time to learn and prepare it, but in any case adding unofficial maps into an unofficial tournament would be a bad idea, I even wonder why nobody yet (including you) created a tournament dedicated to custom maps only, or, I don't know, a themed tournament with only snowy maps because it's christmas (sorry aus), or a springboard tournament with only new custom maps to make a strees test and find new good match maps. There are so many things to do, and we still do the same tournaments again and again.

And if you really dislike unofficial maps, you can still create a themed and/or original tournament with the current 36 official maps.

EDIT: I'm not saying that to force you to put "my" (also Undead) map into your cup, I'm just pointing a general statement I saw in this thread about it.

[Marti]

There are 36 official maps? Wow

Agree with most what has been said ^

[Roflcopter]

Devs don't give a shit about match maps, it has been discussed a million times that it was to the competitive scene to bring it's own map list, if it wasn't the case today, you would not make a map list for this cup and you would not ban 70% of the official map list, so I really don't know why "devs" is an excuse to do not pick unofficial maps into cups, especially when you quote them as "good map selectors" if you know what I mean.

It's not inconsistent to say "the broad bag of maps that one should be expected to play should be chosen by the developers" and yet "the developers have not chosen just maps that are suitable for 3v3 CTF, so we will filter them".

A better excuse would have been to point the fact nobody will know the map before the matches and so, nobody will have the time to learn and prepare it, but in any case adding unofficial maps into an unofficial tournament would be a bad idea

I hinted at exactly that: that a metagame hasn't been established yet on those maps.

I even wonder why nobody yet (including you) created a tournament dedicated to custom maps only, or, I don't know, a themed tournament with only snowy maps because it's christmas (sorry aus), or a springboard tournament with only new custom maps to make a strees test and find new good match maps. There are so many things to do, and we still do the same tournaments again and again.

And if you really dislike unofficial maps, you can still create a themed and/or original tournament with the current 36 official maps.

I think there's room for custom map tournaments but they are more casual than tournaments I'm generally interested in running. For a more competitive tournament we need maps with fairly established metagames that are known to be decent.

[Undead]

it would only take the vast majority of people one game (maybe two for both sides, i guess) to get used to the gameplay of the new cavern tbh. it isn't that much dissimilar from the old version. i honestly think you should put it to a vote; if the majority of people want to play it, then let them.

also i'm not sure why you're considering this as a "more competitive tournament" when not many people are really playing and training regularly enough to take this tournament seriously.

I understand there's no technical problem using non-official maps. The reason is idealogical: I don't want to change the game. Selecting good maps feels like a decision for the devs. The maps also haven't been extensively tested in clan matches and a metagame hasn't been developed on them yet.

i can tell you, with absolute certainty, that the map works in clan matches. i have tested it with more attention than any other map has received. if it wasn't true i doubt so many people would be for adding the map to the tournament (thats the "experience") there.

by the way, you still haven't played the map yourself to my knowledge, so go and try it out. the only people who appear to be apprehensive towards adding cavern1.2 haven't actually played it. i actually got the idea to rework cavern when you suggested those three other crappy maps just for the sake of having an even number of maps in the tournament

[ExodusS]

...and yet "the developers have not chosen just maps that are suitable for 3v3 CTF, so we will filter them".

You know as me, it will never be the case, in any circumstances devs will add new official maps accordingly to the playability of them in a 3 vs 3 match. Current maps that fit with the 3 vs 3 CTF were not chosen because of it. Out of ac_swamp, none of the map you picked in your list were intentionally made to fit with what you call "the meta".

I think there's room for custom map tournaments but they are more casual than tournaments I'm generally interested in running. For a more competitive tournament we need maps with fairly established metagames that are known to be decent.

This is the main issue we are trying to point here, you are creating tournaments accordingly to the meta, but the way you are describing "the meta", is just disabling every possible changes we could apply to it. You are just waiting for devs to add more official maps so maybe we will have the chance to have like 2-3 suitable match maps in the 20 new added. You know as me official maps comes only with new AC updates wich are spaced by a lot in time but you only want official maps because those are the only ones a competitive player has no excuse to don't know. Do you see where your opinion is broken now?

It's time to use your "competitive scene leader post" to apply good changes instead of using it to "force" (because they kinda don't have the choice) people to follow you and play the same things again and again. There is no place for a lot of tournaments on AC each years, if there are only 2 tournaments and they are the same, with zero newcomers, how would you expect things to change well for the AC competitive scene wich is going down-hill since a long time now?

In the past, your notoriety could completely give you the ability to run mapping contests with the winner's map played in a custom tournament, wich is a price way higher than $50. It would join the mapping and competitive scene of the game and be way more inovative than anything this game knew yet, but you are right, stick with your meta.

[Undead]

We already tried to get Larry to add it, but he said he's not open to adding a map if it's not official. it's a shame but meh

So do we bug Undead or RK to expedite this process? XD

i will perfect the map if i am given permission to modify the CBL

[Mousikos]

Glitches are not allowed. If a player drops a flag into an inaccessible location the enemy team will be awarded one extra flag to their score.

Is hax jump a glitch?

[Roflcopter]

Glitches are not allowed. If a player drops a flag into an inaccessible location the enemy team will be awarded one extra flag to their score.

Is hax jump a glitch?

My understanding is that it is not. It was known to the developers and not fixed in 1.2. I'd like to hear any opposing opinions though.

[Waffles]

not fixed for lack of ability rather than intended feature.

i consider it a glitch personally and it's been generally frowned upon in matches ive played in. I remember xemi catching a bunch of shit for it as well as bullet

[Roflcopter]

not fixed for lack of ability rather than intended feature.

i consider it a glitch personally and it's been generally frowned upon in matches ive played in. I remember xemi catching a bunch of shit for it as well as bullet

I thought the criticism was for allegedly using a bind, not performing the jump itself.

It is quite easy to perform by accident so banning it is probably not feasible.

Maybe stef, RR or another developer could comment?

[EndGame]

what about the glitch in cla base gothic?

[Undead]

not fixed for lack of ability rather than intended feature.

i consider it a glitch personally and it's been generally frowned upon in matches ive played in. I remember xemi catching a bunch of shit for it as well as bullet

I thought the criticism was for allegedly using a bind, not performing the jump itself.

It is quite easy to perform by accident so banning it is probably not feasible.

Maybe stef, RR or another developer could comment?

i have no idea why you're asking the developers to comment, but w/e. i don't believe they care about glitches that only really effect competitive games, especially considering it requires a solution that requires intuitive knowledge of how competitive games work.

http://aox-ac.net/forum/390-what-is-a-h4x-jump/0

you have to change your keybinds + lower your fps to do it effectively, but even then it still isn't 100% possible every time.  imo, it should either be removed from the game or made so it can be performed 100% reliably without abusing the game engine regardless of fps/keyboard setup. 

as for this tournament, i don't think you should be banning anyone for it unless they're obviously using the script to perform the jump.

[Cemer]

i only remember shit for and shitting on people who used the binds; not the concept and usage in general

[Roflcopter]

what about the glitch in cla base gothic?

As I understand it, it is a bug. But I'd like to hear opposing opinions.

If it is blatantly intentional, penalties may be awarded. This would mean that referees would usually warn players who used it at least once. And even then penalties would only be awarded if the referee was certain its use was intentional.

The phrasing now makes clear that it must be intentional:

Intentionally using bugs is not allowed.

[EndGame]

it will be always intentional, in my opinion. For example, we played a game vs rC where they scored a flag because one of their players abused that bug and killed my teammate and me in our base. That bug made him impossible to hit since he was moving like if he were "speedhacking". It was impossible to kill him. Now, as everybody knows it, if a player does it he's exploiting that bug. Therefore, he/she should be punished accordingly.

Now, I have a few questions. do we have final official rules for the tournament? what's the final date for the tournament? what's the map pool? will we play only in rC servers?

[Roflcopter]

it will be always intentional, in my opinion. For example, we played a game vs rC where they scored a flag because one of their players abused that bug and killed my teammate and me in our base. That bug made him impossible to hit since he was moving like if he were "speedhacking". It was impossible to kill him. Now, as everybody knows it, if a player does it he's exploiting that bug. Therefore, he/she should be punished accordingly.

If it's definitely intentional then the referee should deal with it. I don't want accidental glitches to result in penalties though. It definitely is possible to do accidentally.

Now, I have a few questions. do we have final official rules for the tournament? what's the final date for the tournament? what's the map pool? will we play only in rC servers?

The rules may be modified until the signup date. Practically, they're pretty much finished.

The 21st, 12pm GMT signup.

The complete map pool will be the pool listed in the rules with the addition of whichever map is winning the poll on Saturday 20th. Mostly like that's lainio.

The rules cover servers in detail. Essentially teams may agree a server to use. If a decision can't be made, a referee will choose a fair server. This server may be one of the official listed servers or another one.

[Marti]

the famous 'gothic CLA' bug is perfectly possible in RVSF base aswell

so if someone bugs you on CLA, you can bug them on RVSF.

edit: it actually works on numerous maps, i have found quite a few very biased spots in at least 3 more competitive played maps.

[Roflcopter]

so if someone bugs you on CLA, you can bug them on RVSF.

Please just tell a referee instead during your next respawn.

[Mr.OpTic]

I'm sure I'm not the only one missing which bug everyone's talking about here? Surely it's not just abusing spots in the base where you can spawn camp?

[ExodusS]

It is quite easy to perform by accident so banning it is probably not feasible.

I just think most of the "accidental hax-jumps" will be performed to jump on an usually not accessible area. I guess you will ignore this post as you did for the previous one. Don't count me as a referee please, they is no way to argue with you.

[Marti]

I'm sure I'm not the only one missing which bug everyone's talking about here? Surely it's not just abusing spots in the base where you can spawn camp?

come to rc ts and i will show you/vanq will show you

(i learned about it also approx 40 mins ago)