The square, the score: how to live happy and lift up AC

[MotoShadow]

I remember I actually used to ritually avoid the BoB ladder servers because PERROS was an admin (EDIT: still is?)

Nope

[1Cap]

Thanks for not misinterpret my post . My English sometimes can cause many disorders .

I agree with the idea of ​​a LADDER . Something like the hi -skill .
But more simple and straightforward .

See , the code is opensourse . Anyone can create a LADDER .
What I said was , do .

With regards to marketing I agree that is wrong . But is not the goal here for the game admins . If we were to propose alternatives to publicize the game, i could help a lot. I have training in this subject and 20 years of experience with it ;)

I offered more than once to assist on Facebook Fanpage ... just see the thread ...

The issue is that not many things need to be official . Other things anyone can do freely. In addition there is a great documentation available and quite content in Akimbo . Understand what is Akimbo and you 'll understand what I'm talking about.

I agree with you. The game needs more movement, more players , more clans , need a LADDER , need to have sound, needs better server admins , need less arbitrary banishment forum . And it need lots of people to collaborate and build things for the development of the game .

[ketar]

But is not the goal here for the game admins . If we were to propose alternatives to publicize the game, i could help a lot. I have training in this subject and 20 years of experience with it ;)

at this point I officially wonder which is their goal

I offered more than once to assist on Facebook Fanpage ... just see the thread ...

Ha! I saw it. Looks like you do not have to offer help anymore: it kills the thread ;)

Btw thanks for helping me in understand your point of view. And forgive me. I was simply doubtful: not about you but about my comprehension.

[DeathCrew77]

Firstly, the world doesn't revolve around you and your ladder.

Secondly, dev team won't sponsor your ladder.

Thirdly, your post is disappointing and shows lack of understanding of the AC community.

*drops mic and walks off stage*

[CharlyMurphie]

I have no idea how to code, but I have grasp on how FPS games are played, and most of us here have that grasp as well know. I WANT TO GIVE A SHOUT OUT, to all that have helped build THIS. Great points by everyone. Like I said since Galaga and quarters... <(insert other currency here) there has always been a ladder or score board, which ever anyone prefers. This game is like music to me. It shouldn't divide

[1Cap]

[RKTnoob]

I'd like to see ladder that works on any server, something official, it'd be great. Yeah, I know wishes aren't roses, and such an endeavor would require time and effort, and as AC is an open source game that generates no income, there isn't any money to pay someone willing to make it and then maintain it.

Wishfully thinking, I'd like it because it would make more players play AC, which is a good thing, as we all know that AC lacks in that department. Having a ladder that tracks all sorts of data would be a very nice thing.

If someone does want to make such a thing, maybe the community could raise some funds to help out.

[Luc@s]

I'd like to see ladder that works on any server, something official, it'd be great. Yeah, I know wishes aren't roses, and such an endeavor would require time and effort, and as AC is an open source game that generates no income, there isn't any money to pay someone willing to make it and then maintain it.

Wishfully thinking, I'd like it because it would make more players play AC, which is a good thing, as we all know that AC lacks in that department. Having a ladder that tracks all sorts of data would be a very nice thing.

If someone does want to make such a thing, maybe the community could raise some funds to help out.

lol

[#M|A#Wolf]

Well, I think 1Cap's image is enlightening enough to give everyone the answer they seek in this thread, yes?

[RKTnoob]

I don't see what's so funny. I bet someone would be wiling to code it for a decent amount of cash, and cash could used to pay for any infrastructure needed. There's a load of coders out there, it doesn't have to be one of the current developers necessarily.

[ketar]

I bet that Luc@s doesn't believe that there is people here willing to pay ( I actually spent quite a interesting sum in sustaining other people work, and I am always thankful to everybody that made this all possible, but I understand I am an exception).

But apart from that- seen that many think that an official ladder could help - I'd really like devs and all answering, in detail, to these questions.

1) are you interested in promoting the game?
2) are you interested in help and suggestions from users? If not, why?
3) apart from any personal issue/preference, don't you think that an official ranking system could help? If not, why?
4) Given that coding a new official ladder takes time and resources, don't you think that an existing one, as is or with due mods, could substitute it and make the job? If not why?

I do not come here often, but the feeling I have from this thread is quite deceiving. Let me know if trying to make a reasoning all together is a value or not for you. If it is not, well... this all is a lost of time.

[jamz]

1) are you interested in promoting the game?
2) are you interested in help and suggestions from users? If not, why?
3) apart from any personal issue/preference, don't you think that an official ranking system could help? If not, why?
4) Given that coding a new official ladder takes time and resources, don't you think that an existing one, as is or with due mods, could substitute it and make the job? If not why?

1) I'm interested in the game being promoted.
2) All help and suggestions are welcome.
3) Whilst a ranking system advertised on this site, or integrated into the game, would certainly be attractive to a specific set of people, I don't think it's conducive to AC's original goals. Ranking individuals is not compatible with the team dynamics required for a fun game of AC.
4) I believe the existing ladders are best placed, and suited, to maintain their current roles.

[Undead]

Ranking individuals is not compatible with the team dynamics required for a fun game of AC.

it is, but not in the way you think of it.

[ExodusS]

Ranking individuals is not compatible with the team dynamics required for a fun game of AC.

If each players of the winning team win twice the amount of points at the intermission, and if those points are showed in an official ladder, you can be sure people will play their best, for their personnal score but they will be forced to play for their team first, and the "care'o meter" of AC players would not be stuck to zero anymore toward the role of RVSF and CLA in this game. The team would not be just a spawn side anymore.
Also it would need a better team fixing than the actual one.

[ketar]

Ranking individuals is not compatible with the team dynamics required for a fun game of AC.

This is a good point. I proposed in the past the idea of a ladder called "We win" who was rewarding teamplay (the thread has gone lost with the old forum). Tho I believe that the points in favor of a ladder are more then the ones against.
And - as suggested from Exodus - there could be a score system that could reward teamplay.

But once again, and once for all, I think that the participation, fondness, membership and identity factors (that are maybe just side effects of a ladder) at the end could be more interesting for the attachment to the game then the ranking factor.

I see the ladder as a square of the system, and I see it in a strategic way. As you I d not care much about my individual ranking: so do not think I am pushing toward a more competitive game. I think to the ladder as a stimulus to affection: it's simply strategic to the goal

[#M|A#Wolf]

Ranking individuals is not compatible with the team dynamics required for a fun game of AC.

Could you elaborate on that? That seems like a subjective argument on what you personally consider as a "fun game of AC", not necessarily everyone else. Don't you think some players would enjoy the greater competitiveness the rankings would offer, and those that are not interested can simply ignore the system?

[jamz]

You're right, 'fun' is subjective; some have fun being a teamkiller, a ratio whore, a camper, etc. I won't deny that ladders promote competition (although the basic default format always seems to reward longevity over performance), but (assuming CTF only) you're never going to ascend a ladder by getting between your flag guy and an opponent, or for holding out with the flag while your teammates try despairingly to return yours.
I won't deny that a good competitive player will always rank highly on ladders (for a similar amount of time played), but it irks me when I see highly skilled players in pubs concentrating on their ratio instead of getting flags or assisting their teammates in getting flags, and that's without it being a ladder server. If the reward is for individual performance, the temptation for some will be to prioritise this over their teammates.
At no point have I argued against ladders in this thread; only the official backing of them.

[ketar]

Jamz there is a pedagogic intention in your words, I appreciate it, I support it too. But... it's somehow funny. It's an fps (no need to remind you what that stands for) game. with scores and all.
Are we in the wrong place?

[1Cap]

The points listed are really important. But I believe the solution is in the scoring formula.
Not all servers would ladders, then, would not prejudice the beginners player.
...
When we see a cheater we reported it.
Just report the players who harm their teams on ladders servers. Reports and puts the demo.

Surely create the formula will require a practical study.

Proposal: Create a fair ladder and prove that this is not affecting the gameplay in a negative way.

Maybe it's a start ... think of the scores for each game mode.

(I remember the 1st time I saw my name on the list of players on a ladder - it was very motivating - it motivated me to continue playing even knowing nothing of console commands or scripts ....)

[Foo]

3) Whilst a ranking system advertised on this site, or integrated into the game, would certainly be attractive to a specific set of people, I don't think it's conducive to AC's original goals. Ranking individuals is not compatible with the team dynamics required for a fun game of AC.

What are AC's original goals? Achievement of clearly stated goals obviously don't directly correlate to health of the game if we assume that every release of AC has been getting us closer towards its original goals, as player numbers have been plummeting since the end of 1.0.4. Would you rather have a dead game which remains faithful to its original goals? IMO the goals of the game should be:

a. to develop a simple, fun, easily-run game across multiple operating systems. This has been fairly well met, though IMO the quality of gameplay has degraded since 1.0.4. The less-fun, less balanced (again, IMO) gameplay has resulted in less player numbers.

b. to foster a healthy, stable community around the game, in terms of forums, modding resources, IRC, etc. This has become the main problem of the game. The community is no longer centred around the game, but around itself. People log on to IRC, forums, etc. not to discuss the game, but to be part of the community. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this, but it has resulted in the game taking a backseat.

If there are other goals for the project, I'd really love to hear them.

[Undead]

The less-fun, less balanced (again, IMO) gameplay has resulted in less player numbers.

not exactly. just because you personally, as well as some others, didn't enjoy the game much from 1.0.4 onward doesn't mean it is the primary reason for a net reduction in the amount of people playing. certain people have played less with the switch between every version, and this is because version switches aren't streamlined.

for example, in league of legends, version switches are streamlined in the form of patches, and rarely do people actually quit the game because of a patch change, despite major changes that sometimes make the game less enjoyable. even then, the people who do quit are offset by the great numbers of people that join.

I personally haven't enjoyed the game as much since 1.1, but that is because the version change disenfranchised me due to a lack of a streamlined switch. the actual game itself has, imo, experienced a net improvement, but that is completely irrelevant to our primary objective.

your suggested objectives need a refocus. concern yourself with the big picture. what the game PRIMARILY requires is net growth, instead of the net decline we've seen for somewhere around 5 years.

but undead, lord protector of AC, how the fuck can we do that?

i've gone through all of this before, but whatever, here we go.

lets objectively analyze the reasons for why we aren't seeing more people play the game. i'll be using league of legends as my primary example, because it is by far the best run game i've come across.
behold this glorious graph, that i have never ever seen brought up:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/actionga...2014-03-22

AC is receiving the least weekly downloads in its entire history. This is mainly because it receives very little popular attention. It receives no attention because the game itself is not even slightly competitive with other titles in the same bracket out there. as i have said before, why play AC when you can play every other superior game out there.
and yet, it still received 29,910 downloads last month. i don't even know how. If all 29,910 players played the game once a week, AC would be INCREDIBLY active. as such, AC needs to greatly increase its retention rate, before it even begins to focus on marketing through youtube/facebook/reddit/whatever. so, how can we increase AC's retention rate?

http://www.destructoid.com/ul/236618-rio...2-620x.jpg

case in point: League of Legends has 70 million registered summoner names, with 32 million monthly active players. that is a MASSIVE retention rate. even if my source is dodgy as shit, i don't doubt the retention rate is still similarly massive. AC has a retention rate of a mere fraction of whatever league of legends has. so, how exactly do we get people who download the game to stick around? this requires effort from the devs, or at least willingness for the devs to let other people do their homework for them.

league of legends has an INVOLVING and CENTRAL interface. http://i.imgur.com/nywPKAu.jpg LoL has a friends list, AC does not. AC's "interface" likely acts to turn people AWAY from the game. I would not be surprised if a large number of users uninstall because they don't understand that ESC brings up the menu. AC has no system to "motivate" you to play. no ranking system LINKED IN to the UI, no "news" on the game to relate to, it just seems straight up DEAD, and back when the game was "active", the game still seemed pretty dead to any outsider. on top of that, league still has a shit ton more features than AC. AC is simply not competitive, and the devs do not even make the slightest attempt to remain competitive.

thus, the easiest, and most immediate way to RETAIN people is to greatly overhaul the UI and, following on from foo's point, to INCORPORATE the community into the game internally. if you want to talk to your friends, you hop onto AC, not IRC or TS. IRC and TS should be supplemental to the game, not the other way around.

of course, the realists and cynics of AC recognize that this may not be possible. it requires capital to maintain more servers than the webserver and masterserver. this means that AC requires capital to grow, and AC has an oft-ignored way of manifesting capital. i don't see why the development team doesn't incorporate high-paying, annoying advertisements into the forums and the main website, and if you really loved AC, you could purchase something like ACPRO™ for $4.99 that removes ads and gives you some cool shit in-game. you also have the option of adding some dodgy add-on program to the installer (that you can untick, of course) in order to generate further dollars. these are just ideas to bring money to AC, i don't doubt that there are others. perhaps i've missed the technological specifics to some of these ideas, so someone with a technological brain can fill the gaps. every player who plays the game should somehow be increasing AC's capital.

match-making is another topic altogether, and requires a significant player base to incorporate, but i guarantee that something that incorporates CENTRALIZED and competitive levelling, or ranking, would GREATLY boost the games popularity. people fucking love progressing. why do you think people love playing on ladder servers?

there are sooooo many other issues too, and require a capable manager to remove them all. i don't doubt that the actual engine that AC is in, with its disgusting graphics, make it unattractive to most people, thereby killing retention rates, but i haven't seen anyone advocate for the move up to the cube2 engine or another engine that wasn't created in 2001.

certain newbies may hate the lack of weapon diversity. there is hardly an issue with incorporating new weapons into the game that are basically slightly modified snipers or ARs, as it wouldn't necessarily hurt balance. again, just floating ideas that may help to increase retention rates.

to summarise, AC's low retention rate is killing it. people are downloading AC in decreasing numbers because it doesn't get any attention BECAUSE the game itself is not competitive or attractive. this requires significant effort, either from the devs or the community, to fix the problems associated with the game and increase the popularity of the game. if not, this downward trend will continue and AC will remain on the same path it has always been on.

i would love for the devs to take my suggestions on board, but the main point of this rant was to frame what exactly the issues are and what needs to be done to fix it, not as a definite measure of what MUST be done.

[ExodusS]

League of Legends was a good exemple so was Minecraft.
IMO, Minecraft is an even more successfull game because it is not a F2P game. You can modify the game trough mods and texture packs (and even more), the server system is great and may improve soon, MC principes are nearby AC ones, (I'm not speaking about cubes and gameplay stuff).

[Undead]

League of Legends was a good exemple so was Minecraft.
IMO, Minecraft is an even more successfull game because it is not a F2P game. You can modify the game trough mods and texture packs (and even more), the server system is great and may improve soon, MC principes are nearby AC ones, (I'm not speaking about cubes and gameplay stuff).

and naturally, even through these proposed changes, the creative side of AC should be encouraged and fostered, not restricted and raped as it is now. pristine example is the response of the devs to the gema community. internal akimbo would be amazing and would encourage more people to stick around, play, and get others to play. we already have akimbo at least slightly incorporated into AC.

[Orynge]

Kinda adding onto Undead's points, AC was already dated when I started playing ~4 years ago, but with the recent growths and advancements in other F2P games (LoL, TF2, Blacklight, PlanetSide 2, a ton of others), AC is now well and truly ancient and I don't see the player-base growing anytime soon.

[Foo]

AC is now well and truly ancient and I don't see the player-base growing anytime soon.

AC was never intended to be comparable to the triple-A titles which you mention (e.g. LoL or PS2) so direct comparisons in terms of gameplay or graphics aren't very good, and this is not a major reason why the player-base is declining. Triple-A titles were around in 2010 when AC was at its peak.

What needs to happen is a huge shake-up of the dev team. For too long the dev team has been dominated by people that simply don't see the long-term viability of this project as their main concern. I'm sure they believe they have the game's best interests in heart, but in no way has their work been remotely successful in stemming the tide of players who have been slowly leaving over the course of all post-1.0.4 releases.

i would love for the devs to take my suggestions on board

This is probably the main barrier to progress as a project, which we as a community must address. Somehow the dev team needs to put their pride behind them and put some sort of reforms in place so that in 5 years, there is still a widely-played AssaultCube. It is possible, and if it means that you have to have compromised your idea of where the game should go, so be it.

As some final words on the subject: Clearly there are issues with the project. This much is inescapable. There has been no meaningful progress in terms of making the game more appealing, or instituting innovative changes to mechanics of the game. The game itself is not very enjoyable when you compare it to other games in its genre, and especially when you compare it to games outside its genre. This has always been true of AC. What you, as a dev team, have to work out, is whether it's worth it to continue this project with a low amount of changes, and a constantly declining player base. The community can ask for changes as much as they want, as we have been, but when you section yourself off from the rest of the community and make it your responsibility to lead the development, you take the onus when player numbers continue to dwindle and relatively small releases take fucking years. Anyway, this isn't just me having a dig at any of the devs specifically, but rather at the continued degradation of the game I used to adore.

[1Cap]

There was a video game / platform called Atari . There was a game called Riverraid and another called Pacman . Pacman is older ...
Many people played it ... after awhile fewer people came to play .. Today just some play ...
There were no new games that overthrew the Atari was the technology and new generations .. ie the time ....
Many feel that the time has passed for the AC .
Technology has evolved .. New linux distributions .. new OS versions . New versions of Windows ... Anyway , the end of the game came to an end ...
But they are wrong . Why ? Because I played Pacman yesterday here on my computer and it was fun .
The AC has never been a game of crowds of fans .. and I believe never will.
But it is possible to increase the player base to keep the game fun . Who thinks differently it should be away from the project. Who does not make any offers to promote the game or try to improve it , should stay away .
If it is possible to translate the game interface ( menus ) to the Portuguese of Brazil , I'm sure many new players will come!
If Facebook is well-run , new players arrive . But that is what the Devs want ? This is what the Admins want ?
Show me a clear post of an Admin or some Dev proposing real action to publicize the game. Wiki ? This is for Nerds . ( Dont worry im some kind of nerd too ) .
Documentation . ? This is not popular or interesting for most players
So I said ... why ask for official aid ?
Do it yourself.
But I understand that the game is not so attractive atm . Bugs in sound , bad UI , little promotion , poorly managed servers , high ping , 300 + no way, bad balance team automatic system, etc.

[Flames]

I really don't get why you guys compare games such as League of Legends to AC, LoL was based on an already successful dota and was developed by a well funded dev team. You are asking the ac dev team to invest too much to a game which has a very low player base ,
there are many F2P titles that offer great gameplay and graphics and other stuff. I don't think even a complete overhaul to ac will do any good to it simply because assault cube does not have the potential to attract players.

[Undead]

I really don't get why you guys compare games such as League of Legends to AC, LoL was based on an already successful dota and was developed by a well funded dev team. You are asking the ac dev team to invest too much to a game which has a very low player base ,
there are many F2P titles that offer great gameplay and graphics and other stuff. I don't think even a complete overhaul to ac will do any good to it simply because assault cube does not have the potential to attract players.

try reading my post/improve your comprehension skills

[Flames]

I read it ,didn't agree :D

[Undead]

I read it ,didn't agree :D

just because you read it, doesn't mean you understand it.